Reggie Bush did not deserve the Heisman

[Sgt. Ryan]

Im sorry, Bush is great no doubt, but he did not deserve the Heisman Trophy. You take bush off SC and they still probably go undefeated. You take Leinart off and they lose 3 games. SC has the greatest offense in college football history playing in one of the weakest conferences in America. Leinart is the only guy you take off this team and they dont win 10 games. Leinart is more valuable to that team than Bush.

 

 

 

That being said, where would Texas be without Vince Young. He is as electric as Bush, doesnt play special teams, so doesnt get those gravey all purpose yards, but has the ball in his hands on every offensive play. Young is by far the most deserving of the award this yr, and was screwed by the performance of Bush in 2 games Fresno St and UCLA. Bush had several games he didnt have 100 total yards, and wasnt even a factor in the teams success. Young was the biggest factor in every Texas win.

 

 

No let me finish saying Bush is great, and should be a first round pick. But how could a team pass on Leinart or Young at the next level for a Rb like Bush who is likely to only carry the ball 15 times a game, with 5 catches plus return punts. If Im New Orleans Im happy as hell knowing Houston is taking Bush or trading the pick to a Bush lover and Im getting leinart. Leinart in a dome will not be as exposed as Penny in the crazy winds of New York. That offense is loaded with talent, just needs a coach with direction. Leinart could put up Manning like stats early on with that porous defense the Aints have.

[wildcat2334]

WOW,

 

After reading your post, I am convinced your just looking for an argument, NO?? Bush was the most electric, exciting, dominating player in the country- and very deserving of the Hesiman. You can make a good case for a few guys every year- but this was Bush's year- Bottom Line- and he deserved. 15 carries a game, what on earth makes you think he won't get a full load in the NFL??

 

Leinart looks to be a good pro QB, no question. Vince Young?? please- he has alot of improving to do- especially throwing the football. His mechanics are horrendous- and he will not even set foot under center in the NFL IMO, unless he seriously proves he can throw the ball well. Amazing athlete- no question, NFL starting QB- doubt it. Throwing in the Big 12 is a little different than the NFL.

[Sgt. Ryan]

WOW,

 

After reading your post, I am convinced your just looking for an argument, NO?? Bush was the most electric, exciting, dominating player in the country- and very deserving of the Hesiman. You can make a good case for a few guys every year- but this was Bush's year- Bottom Line- and he deserved. 15 carries a game, what on earth makes you think he won't get a full load in the NFL??

 

Leinart looks to be a good pro QB, no question. Vince Young?? please- he has alot of improving to do- especially throwing the football. His mechanics are horrendous- and he will not even set foot under center in the NFL IMO, unless he seriously proves he can throw the ball well. Amazing athlete- no question, NFL starting QB- doubt it. Throwing in the Big 12 is a little different than the NFL.

 

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Bush averaged how many carries in college, try 15 a game. Im not looking for any argument, Bush is great, but SC without Bush is still in the title game. Texas without Young loses the Alamo Bowl.

 

And lets get real, Vick is less accurate than Young and he went #1 overall. Young will never have great mechanics, but tell me which ball he cant throw, accurately. His completion percentage was 63.9 % for the year, and against arguably the best defense in teh country OSU, he threw for 62 % going 18-29 for 270 passing yards and 2 TDs. I aint a Texas fan by any means, but this guy is amazing, and should have won the Heisman. Bush had a few huge games, but was pedestrian in just as many games, and certainly wasnt a factor vs Cal, Washington or Washington State. You take away the games vs UCLA one of the worst defenses in the country vs the run, and Fresno St, who complete suck, look at their last 4 games, and Bush would have finished 3rd in the voting. 2 games defined his season, and neither were against strong defenses.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=135107

 

vs

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=145158

[Perchoutofwater]

Welcome back Sarge

[darin3]

A few points. First of all, I agree - to a point - that Young probably deserved the trophy as much as Bush did. Bush, actually, could have won it last year, but Leinart's accomplishments were even greater than Bush's.

 

This season, Bush has been nothing but electrifying. Sure, if you take Bush off the Trojans, they still probably win (with White as featured back). But so what? The Heisman isn't "the trophy going to the player that if taken off his team, would mean his team doesn't win as many games". There's plenty of ways to look at the Heisman. The most accepted way is "the best college football player". Was it Bush? Young? Leinart? Quinn? Hell, it could have been D'Angelo Williams. Face it: USC won a ton of games, and Bush was nothing but electrifying in most of them. There were some that he didn't HAVE to be, because the Pac-10 was not very good this season. Listen, I'm a Longhorn fan. On top of it, I cannot STAND USC. I have to put up with SC fans up the yin-yang on a daily basis and they make me ill. But Reggie Bush was one of the best football players on the best college football team in the nation. He deserves the trophy.

 

Now, on to his NFL prospects. Come on. He's built EXACTLY like Marshall Faulk. He may even be FASTER than Faulk. Give me a break, 15 carries? OK, maybe 15-20. But hey, in this day and age of the RBBC, that's a good number of carries. Say 18 carries. 5-6 receptions. Help in the return game. Bush is going to be a monster. Going back to Faulk... when he was a senior in New Orleans, he was being recruited by a good number of big-name schools... but they wanted to convert him to DB while allowing him to take reps as a backup RB. San Diego State (and one other smaller school) told him they'd sign him as a RB. So there he went. And we all know the rest of the story. Why can't a talented guy from a talent-laden and well-coached team like Reggie Bush succeed like Faulk?

 

Next, Leinart. Color me crazy but I think he's going to be a bust. From what I've seen, his mobility is average at best. He has fantastic touch, but not much of a cannon arm (unlike his predecessor, Palmer). He's had some ridiculous talent around him (Mike Williams, Jarrett) to throw to, and even better talent (Bush, White) behind him. And an unheralded line. He's smarter than Palmer, but I don't think he has the tools to be a big-name NFL QB. I might get blasted for this, but that's what I think. He would have been better served to come out after last season. Oh, and the Trojans would have been just as good with Josh Booty at QB.

[Sgt. Ryan]

A few points.  First of all, I agree - to a point - that Young probably deserved the trophy as much as Bush did.  Bush, actually, could have won it last year, but Leinart's accomplishments were even greater than Bush's. 

 

This season, Bush has been nothing but electrifying.  Sure, if you take Bush off the Trojans, they still probably win (with White as featured back).  But so what?  The Heisman isn't "the trophy going to the player that if taken off his team, would mean his team doesn't win as many games".  There's plenty of ways to look at the Heisman.  The most accepted way is "the best college football player".  Was it Bush?  Young?  Leinart?  Quinn? Hell, it could have been D'Angelo Williams.  Face it:  USC won a ton of games, and Bush was nothing but electrifying in most of them.  There were some that he didn't HAVE to be, because the Pac-10 was not very good this season.  Listen, I'm a Longhorn fan.  On top of it, I cannot STAND USC.  I have to put up with SC fans up the yin-yang on a daily basis and they make me ill.  But Reggie Bush was one of the best football players on the best college football team in the nation.  He deserves the trophy.

 

Now, on to his NFL prospects.  Come on.  He's built EXACTLY like Marshall Faulk.  He may even be FASTER than Faulk.  Give me a break, 15 carries?  OK, maybe 15-20.  But hey, in this day and age of the RBBC, that's a good number of carries.  Say 18 carries.  5-6 receptions.  Help in the return game.  Bush is going to be a monster.  Going back to Faulk... when he was a senior in New Orleans, he was being recruited by a good number of big-name schools... but they wanted to convert him to DB while allowing him to take reps as a backup RB.  San Diego State (and one other smaller school) told him they'd sign him as a RB.  So there he went.  And we all know the rest of the story.  Why can't a talented guy from a talent-laden and well-coached team like Reggie Bush succeed like Faulk? 

 

Next, Leinart.  Color me crazy but I think he's going to be a bust.  From what I've seen, his mobility is average at best.  He has fantastic touch, but not much of a cannon arm (unlike his predecessor, Palmer).  He's had some ridiculous talent around him (Mike Williams, Jarrett) to throw to, and even better talent (Bush, White) behind him.  And an unheralded line.  He's smarter than Palmer, but I don't think he has the tools to be a big-name NFL QB.  I might get blasted for this, but that's what I think.  He would have been better served to come out after last season.  Oh, and the Trojans would have been just as good with Josh Booty at QB.

 

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I agree Leinart isnt going to be a top pro, but could put up huge numbers if he goes to New Orleans with that pathetic defense. If Leinart goes to a Dome team, he will be fine. If he goes to say the Jets, he will be the left handed version of Chad Pennington.

[Coffeeman]

One of the reasons Leinart didn't come out last year was a hernia and elbow injury that were worse than they appeared. He was worried about disappointing in the combine. Yes, he may be #5 instead of #1 this year, but he'll make plenty of money and can continue to work on arm strength in the pros.

 

And I respectfully disagree with Sarge re: Bush. You're also forgetting his great performance in the ND game. "The Push" is now legendary...

[Sgt. Ryan]

One of the reasons Leinart didn't come out last year was a hernia and elbow injury that were worse than they appeared.  He was worried about disappointing in the combine.  Yes, he may be #5 instead of #1 this year, but he'll make plenty of money and can continue to work on arm strength in the pros.

 

And I respectfully disagree with Sarge re: Bush.  You're also forgetting his great performance in the ND game.  "The Push" is now legendary...

 

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so is the Leinart Fumble that luckily went out of bounds that kept their hopes alive.

[keggerz]

i am with Darin sorta on Tim Lienart ooops I mean Matt Couch....sh1t you know who i mean

[Caveman_Nick]

 

Now, on to his NFL prospects.  Come on.  He's built EXACTLY like Marshall Faulk.  He may even be FASTER than Faulk.  Give me a break, 15 carries?  OK, maybe 15-20.  But hey, in this day and age of the RBBC, that's a good number of carries.  Say 18 carries.  5-6 receptions.  Help in the return game.  Bush is going to be a monster.  Going back to Faulk... when he was a senior in New Orleans, he was being recruited by a good number of big-name schools... but they wanted to convert him to DB while allowing him to take reps as a backup RB.  San Diego State (and one other smaller school) told him they'd sign him as a RB.  So there he went.  And we all know the rest of the story.  Why can't a talented guy from a talent-laden and well-coached team like Reggie Bush succeed like Faulk? 

 

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Actually, Bush is physically a good bit different than Faulk right now. Faulk is 5'11" and 211 lb, while Bush is 6'0" and only 200 lb. That's a fairly significant difference, considering that extra inch will add some lank.

 

That's not to say that Bush can't bulk up a little. He will need to in order to take the NFL pounding and be a featured back. You have to wonder what that will do to his speed, though.

 

As to your larger point, there's no reason he can't be used in the same fashion as Faulk or succeed like Faulk. He might even be used in the same fashion. All we can do is wait and see, really.

 

Truth be told, I think his performance tonight will answer some questions for people. Texas plays very solid D, and is definitely the best team USC has played this year by a long bit. If Reggie takes this game over, he goes #1 no question.

 

As far as the Heisman winner goes, FWIW I thought it should have gone to Leinart. People wanted the guy to walk on water to get it and be a repeat winner, and the expectations of him were entirely unrealistic. All the guy has done is QB the longest winning streak in NCAAF.

[Sgt. Ryan]

My opinion they should wait and give out awards after the bowls. As Bush has never played against competition like Texas. I do think Texas has played much better defenses than USC already.

[wildcat2334]

Excuse me?? 6'0 200 is a "good bit different" than 5'11 211??

 

 

Ahh, the Bush/Faulk comparisons are right on. Bush will add 10-15 lbs no problem, and I am sure will play at around 215. Faulk, as he has gotten older has put on some weight. The early Faulk was the same size as Bush. I think Bush will be fine in the pros- his size is right in line with Alexander, Barber, LT, Priest, CMart, and on and on. He is Barry Sanders like in that defenders rarely get big shots on him, he will excel in the NFL with his game changing ability- he is flat out a special back. I think Leinart has the ability to be a good solid QB, but as difficult as playing QB in the NFL can be, he could flounder as well. Vince Young?? as an NFL QB??? don't see it happening. I think we are all seeing with Vick that the athletic QB that does not spread the ball around, hit the right options, make the necesssary throws is not working. And Vick is a better athlete, and has a stronger arm than Young. Nice college player though-

[Caveman_Nick]

Excuse me?? 6'0 200 is a "good bit different" than 5'11 211??   

Ahh, the Bush/Faulk comparisons are right on. Bush will add 10-15 lbs no problem, and I am sure will play at around 215. Faulk, as he has gotten older has put on some weight. The early Faulk was the same size as Bush. I think Bush will be fine in the pros- his size is right in line with Alexander, Barber, LT,  Priest, CMart, and on and on. He is Barry Sanders like in that defenders rarely get big shots on him, he will excel in the NFL with his game changing ability- he is flat out a special back. I think Leinart has the ability to be a good solid QB, but as difficult as playing QB in the NFL can be, he could flounder as well. Vince Young?? as an NFL QB??? don't see it happening. I think we are all seeing with Vick that the athletic QB that does not spread the ball around, hit the right options, make the necesssary throws is not working. And Vick is a better athlete, and has a stronger arm than Young. Nice college player though-

 

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6'0" @ 200 LB is bordering on WR build. DJax is 6'0", 201, Johnnie Morton is 6'0" 193, J Galloway is 5'11" 197, R Wayne is 6'0" 198.

 

That's just, I dunno, 4 of the first 6 I randomly looked at. WR's don't survive well diving through defensive linemen.

 

EDIT: Listing Faulk at 5'11" is generous. If you look, many sources have him listed at 5'10" Being 2" shorter and 11 pounds heavier indicates being quite a bit more solid.

Edited January 4, 2006 by Caveman_Nick

[wildcat2334]

Reallly cannot believe I just had to look these up........

 

LT 5'10 221

SA 5'11 225

Holmes 5'9 213

Tiki 5'10 200

Cmart 5'10 210

Edge 6/0 214

 

All Time Greats in this range- Payton, Sanders, Emmitt, OJ

Enough??...... Bush, like all these guys will add some lbs from the weight room, and be an excellent back in the NFL.

[Coffeeman]

I do think Texas has played much better defenses than USC already.

 

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Ohio State would be the only one with the speed of USC on D. "Much better" is a stretch...

[Caveman_Nick]

Reallly cannot believe I just had to look these up........

 

LT        5'10 221

SA        5'11  225

Holmes  5'9  213

Tiki        5'10  200

Cmart    5'10  210

Edge      6/0    214

 

All Time Greats in this range- Payton, Sanders, Emmitt,  OJ

Enough??...... Bush, like all these guys will add some lbs from the weight room, and be an excellent back in the NFL.

 

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Listen, I don't want to get into a pissing contest about this. If you can't see the difference between 5'10" @ 221 and 6.0" @ 200, I can't help you.

 

All of these builds you listed are significantly more solid than 6' 200 LB.

 

As to your last comment, I said before that he could probably put the weight on and that it would probably help him. BUT...you have to consider if he will lose speed by adding the weight. This is a 'question mark'. It's the definition of a question mark.

[Sgt. Ryan]

Ohio State would be the only one with the speed of USC on D.  "Much better" is a stretch...

 

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Is this a joke. The OU defense has more speed at every single position than USC, and it aint even close. In fact other than Bing, there may not be another player on that defense that would even start for either OU or Texas. And Bing wouldnt start over Huff for texas. "Much better" was giving some respect to USC.

Edited January 4, 2006 by Sgt. Ryan

[Hugh 0ne]

Not a HUGH college fan here, but will offer my opinion on the following:

 

There's a significant difference between a 5'10 220 lb. back and a 6'0 200 lb. back. If Bush bulks up, like he'll have to, he may lose some of his speed. It would be interesting to know what the RB's that Wildcat listed weighed coming out of college, that would probably help settle the score. One succesful college back that is taller and doesn't have the mass to back it up is Chris Brown (6'3 220), as his NFL injury history readily proves.

[darin3]

Actually, Bush is physically a good bit different than Faulk right now.  Faulk is 5'11" and 211 lb, while Bush is 6'0" and only 200 lb.  That's a fairly significant difference, considering that extra inch will add some lank.

 

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Listen, I don't want to get into a pissing contest about this.  If you can't see the difference between 5'10" @ 221 and 6.0" @ 200, I can't help you.

 

All of these builds you listed are significantly more solid than 6' 200 LB.

 

As to your last comment, I said before that he could probably put the weight on and that it would probably help him.  BUT...you have to consider if he will lose speed by adding the weight.  This is a 'question mark'.  It's the definition of a question mark.

 

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Faulk has gone from 211 to 221 in only two posts. Must be eating his Wheaties.

[Caveman_Nick]

  Faulk has gone from 211 to 221 in only two posts.  Must be eating his Wheaties.

 

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Um...the 221 was referring to LT, which was the first guy he listed in his response post. I should have clarified.

[Coffeeman]

Is this a joke.  The OU defense has more speed at every single position than USC, and it aint even close.  In fact other than Bing, there may not be another player on that defense that would even start for either OU or Texas. And Bing wouldnt start over Huff for texas.  "Much better" was giving some respect to USC.

 

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So you're saying TX should score way above their 50.9 average tonight vs. poor USC? I think not...

[Sgt. Ryan]

So you're saying TX should score way above their 50.9 average tonight vs. poor USC?  I think not...

 

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If USC turns the ball over as much as OU did last yr, texas will put half a hundred on that defense, you bet.

Edited January 4, 2006 by Sgt. Ryan

[Clubfoothead]

Give me LinDale White. unfortunately everybody will be saying that tomorrow morning. Hook 'em anyways.

 

[wildcat2334]

Listen, I don't want to get into a pissing contest about this.  If you can't see the difference between 5'10" @ 221 and 6.0" @ 200, I can't help you.

 

All of these builds you listed are significantly more solid than 6' 200 LB.

 

As to your last comment, I said before that he could probably put the weight on and that it would probably help him.  BUT...you have to consider if he will lose speed by adding the weight.  This is a 'question mark'.  It's the definition of a question mark.

 

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Not really in the mood to research college playing weights..... Wihtout looking it up, I am pretty sure Faulk was around 200 at SDSU. The difference between Bush & Faulk's size is negligible- they are very similar backs. Skill players go from college to the NFL, add weight while keeping their speed or even INCREASING IT. Just because Bush may add some weight thru proven NFL workouts, does not mean he will lose speed at all. RB weights vary, some big backs are pussies while "smaller backs" are good at avoiding hits, staying healthy. I mean I really do not want to sit and argue about 10 lbs for Oprahs sake. is LT considered a big back?? of course not- I think it has been shown clearly recently in the NFL backs in similar size doing very well. SA, Barber, CMart, Priest, Edge I mean I don't really understand this knock on Bush at all. The guy is a PHENOM, and I think he is a can't miss, really.

 

That being said - GO SC!!!!!!!! Them Horns

[Sgt. Ryan]

I think

 

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Nuff Said.