Dr. Love Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 As we all know, Joey Harrington is in the process of being run out of town in Detroit. It's always amazed me how much support he's gotten from Lions fans (about a 50-50 split of pro/anti Harrington to begin the 2005 NFL season), and it continues to amaze me how much support he still gets as a lame duck with another season of futility under his belt (maybe 15-25% of fans are of the "Joey will make us all sorry" camp). This leads me to a question. Did other first-round busts enjoy this same sort of support? Was there a significant number of Bears fans sorry to see Cade McNown go? Were there lots of Rick Mirer supporters distraught by the Seahawks decision to get rid of him? Was there a contingent of Bengals fans who thought that Akili Smith wasn't given enough of a chance? Or is Detroit and/or Harrington unique in this respect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 McNown was not only a horrible QB, but a complete jacka$$ of a human being. I don't know of any Bears fans who supported him. He's a small step up from Ryan Leaf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampnuts Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 As a Hawks fan I really don't consider Mirer a bust. I don't think he really ever had the talent to warrant where he was drafted. I thought he was a decent college QB who played on a good team. He should have never been put in the position to try to be the savior in Seattle. I still think Joey will end up having the last laugh when it's all said and done. I think he can and will be a very good QB in the NFL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 Kyle Boller is a prime example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 i dunno, lions fans as a whole seem like a different breed. very...loyal and forgiving, shall we say. (except toward coaches?) and perpetually unrealistically optimistic. i still for the life of me can't figure out how matt millen hasn't been run out of town with his head on a spike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 As a Hawks fan I really don't consider Mirer a bust. I don't think he really ever had the talent to warrant where he was drafted. I thought he was a decent college QB who played on a good team. He should have never been put in the position to try to be the savior in Seattle. I still think Joey will end up having the last laugh when it's all said and done. I think he can and will be a very good QB in the NFL. 1394010[/snapback] Interesting. Any Bengals fans want to chime in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 very...loyal and forgiving, shall we say. (except toward coaches?) and perpetually unrealistically optimistic. 1394025[/snapback] Sounds like Cubs fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furd Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 i dunno, lions fans as a whole seem like a different breed. very...loyal and forgiving, shall we say. (except toward coaches?) and perpetually unrealistically optimistic. i still for the life of me can't figure out how matt millen hasn't been run out of town with his head on a spike. 1394025[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengal Mania Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Interesting. Any Bengals fans want to chime in? 1394028[/snapback] Pass. It's all been said.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrunt Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 (edited) JOEY HARRINGTON Year Team G Cmp Att Pct Yds Yds/Att TD Int 2002 DET 14 215 429 50.1 2294 5.3 12 16 2003 DET 16 309 554 55.8 2880 5.2 17 22 2004 DET 16 274 489 56.0 3047 6.2 19 12 2005 DET 12 188 330 57.0 2021 6.1 12 12 Cade McNown Year Team G Att Comp Yards Lg TD Int 1999 Bears 15 235 127 1465 80 8 10 2000 Bears 10 280 154 1646 68 8 9 Akili Smith Year Team G Att Comp Yards Lg TD Int 1999 Bengals 7 153 80 805 39 2 2000 Bengals 12 267 118 1253 46 3 2001 Bengals 2 8 5 37 14 0 2002 Bengals 1 33 12 117 24 0 Rick Mirer Year His Team G Att Comp Yds Lg TD Int 1993 Seattle 16 486 274 2833 53 12 17 1994 Seattle 13 381 195 2151 51 11 7 1995 Seattle 15 391 209 2564 59 13 20 1996 Seattle 11 265 136 1546 60 5 12 This might be difficult to read since everything didn't seam to line up correctly but the basic idea is that Harrington produced better stats than ALL of the other QB's you compared him too. The only player even remotely close is Rick Mirer who still didn't produce the numbers Harrington did. I think these stats speak for themselves... Edited March 30, 2006 by TheGrunt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donutrun Jellies Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 I was going to defend Harrington by comparing him to the actual stats of Michael Vick, as once you wipe away the crappy shoes from spammers hype, Vick is remarkably mediocre and the facts surprise people. However, amazingly, Vick is actually a higher rated passer than Joey!!! Granted, a career rating of 75 (Vick) is nothing special (Roethlisberger's is 98), but it is better than Harrington (68). Plus, Joey's turnovers are worse than Vick's (that's tough to do) and the Lions haven't won as much as the Falcons have -- even though the Falcons are only one game over .500 during the Vick era. Soooo -- I'll cut Vick some slack today and leave Joey hanging out to dry ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Sounds like Cubs fans. 1394036[/snapback] yeah, that's a pretty close correlation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpholmes Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Ummm... Marques Tuiassosucksthefatone... Tons of hype after his senior year... Many years of garbage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 I still say Denver gave up on Bubby Brister and Brian Griese too early. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Ummm... Marques Tuiassosucksthefatone...Tons of hype after his senior year... Many years of garbage. 1394458[/snapback] Many years of clipboarding - he's played 9 games, starting only 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sox Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Interesting. Any Bengals fans want to chime in? 1394028[/snapback] Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm...we've had QB busts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Jeff George was a local kid that went to high school in Indianapolis. We wanted to ride him out of town on a rail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrunt Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 I still say Denver gave up on Bubby Brister and Brian Griese too early. 1394469[/snapback] I liked Brian Griese way more than Jake, but sadly Plummer actually "statistically" shows more promise. :doah: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizards Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 I think most fans are tolerant of Joey because the team has had a terrible "D" and it causes a QB to always trek from behind and take risks and chances....you gotta have a decent "O" line to help too.....Lions "O" line has been average if not below average in recent years and the "D" is a definite lameduck in past seasons....Harrington (IMO he's a lameduck) maybe just needs a decent team to command and he could do well.....I'm not holding my breath to see if he gets that chance.......I'll never have Joey as my fantasy QB....and that really is the main issue.....the Lions really have talent at WR...need to upgrade the "O" line and QB and their "O" will be potent ......Harrington does not bring potency to the table....top a piano yes, to the football field....HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Love Posted March 30, 2006 Author Share Posted March 30, 2006 JOEY HARRINGTONYear Team G Cmp Att Pct Yds Yds/Att TD Int 2002 DET 14 215 429 50.1 2294 5.3 12 16 2003 DET 16 309 554 55.8 2880 5.2 17 22 2004 DET 16 274 489 56.0 3047 6.2 19 12 2005 DET 12 188 330 57.0 2021 6.1 12 12 Cade McNown Year Team G Att Comp Yards Lg TD Int 1999 Bears 15 235 127 1465 80 8 10 2000 Bears 10 280 154 1646 68 8 9 Akili Smith Year Team G Att Comp Yards Lg TD Int 1999 Bengals 7 153 80 805 39 2 2000 Bengals 12 267 118 1253 46 3 2001 Bengals 2 8 5 37 14 0 2002 Bengals 1 33 12 117 24 0 Rick Mirer Year His Team G Att Comp Yds Lg TD Int 1993 Seattle 16 486 274 2833 53 12 17 1994 Seattle 13 381 195 2151 51 11 7 1995 Seattle 15 391 209 2564 59 13 20 1996 Seattle 11 265 136 1546 60 5 12 This might be difficult to read since everything didn't seam to line up correctly but the basic idea is that Harrington produced better stats than ALL of the other QB's you compared him too. The only player even remotely close is Rick Mirer who still didn't produce the numbers Harrington did. I think these stats speak for themselves... 1394076[/snapback] I think McNown and Mirer are very comparable. McNown 1st 2 yearsG GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate1999 15 6 235 127 54.0 1465 6.23 80 8 10 18/94 18 6 66.72000 10 9 280 154 55.0 1646 5.88 68 8 9 27/169 19 5 68.5Mirer 1st 2 yearsG GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate1993 16 16 486 274 56.4 2833 5.83 53 12 17 47/235 32 5 67.01994 13 13 381 195 51.2 2151 5.65 51 11 7 27/145 27 4 70.2Harrington 1st 2 yearsYear G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate2002 14 12 429 215 50.1 2294 5.35 64 12 16 8/75 28 6 59.92003 16 16 554 309 55.8 2880 5.20 72 17 22 9/55 24 3 63.9---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Harrington 2nd 2 yearsG GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate2004 16 16 489 274 56.0 3047 6.23 62 19 12 36/196 43 4 77.52005 12 11 330 188 57.0 2021 6.12 86 12 12 24/136 23 6 72.02005 passer rating rank: #272005 completion % rank: #35 (excluding <90 attempt QBs, otherwise lower)2005 ypg rank: #32 The first two years of McNown and Mirer look exactly the same as Harrington. And it's not like Joey tore it up in his last two years here. High first round QBs almost always go to crappy teams, so I don't buy that excuse for Harrington either. So my question is still the same: has Harrington actually done anything special to warrant the support he gets, or is there always residual support for high first round quarterbacks because of their college success? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Love Posted March 30, 2006 Author Share Posted March 30, 2006 I think most fans are tolerant of Joey because the team has had a terrible "D" and it causes a QB to always trek from behind and take risks and chances....you gotta have a decent "O" line to help too.....Lions "O" line has been average if not below average in recent years and the "D" is a definite lameduck in past seasons....Harrington (IMO he's a lameduck) maybe just needs a decent team to command and he could do well.....I'm not holding my breath to see if he gets that chance.......I'll never have Joey as my fantasy QB....and that really is the main issue.....the Lions really have talent at WR...need to upgrade the "O" line and QB and their "O" will be potent ......Harrington does not bring potency to the table....top a piano yes, to the football field....HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!! 1394573[/snapback] Don't high first round QB's generally go to bad teams? That's why they're drafting so high in the first round. McNown didn't get that kind of break. As to your comments on the Lions defense, you're way off base. Time and time again, the defense would get stops only to have the offense go three and out. If the opponents offense controls the ball 2/3 of the game, they're going to score. While the Lions defense could use some upgrades, it has not the unit at fault for the poor showings the last several seasons. I never get the "get Joey a good line, good receivers, and a good running back and he'll be okay" line of reasoning. Don't you draft a QB #3 overall to help the team himself? If you've got Pro Bowlers everywhere else, you could have Trent Dilfer QB your team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furd Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 (edited) I never get the "get Joey a good line, good receivers, and a good running back and he'll be okay" line of reasoning. Don't you draft a QB #3 overall to help the team himself? If you've got Pro Bowlers everywhere else, you could have Trent Dilfer QB your team. 1394578[/snapback] See what you need is a better line to give Harrington more time before he misses the receiver. Then you need a better receiver so that Harrington can miss a more open receiver. Then you need a better defense so Harrington can miss more more open receivers, given that he is on the field more. So, if the Harrington apologists get their way, Harrington will be have more time to throw more passes that miss more more open receivers. Edited March 30, 2006 by Furd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizards Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Lions "D" allowed 5,158 total yards last year.....308 First Downs....2040 rushing yards at a 4.2 yards a rush....39 TD's....got only 31 sacks.... I didn't say the Lions sucked....although they almost do on defense...I said they are below average and until you can get a decent "D" and a "DECENT" not Pro Bowl....but "DECENT" "O" line.....people will continue to be tolerant of Joey was my point.....as for me...Lions suck and Joey willl "NEVER" be my Fantasy QB back up or otherwise!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peepinmofo Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Theres a lot of talk about JP Losman being traded on the Bills message boards. Will it happen? Who knows, but a lot of fans say the Bills should get rid of him. Me? I say keep him. Theres too much invested in him to give up yet, and he cannot be considered a bust YET. Give him at LEAST another year vefore calling him a bust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holliday Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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