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I'd just like to say...


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Okay, first of all I LOVE Donte Whitner. I have a bunch of friends who are OSU fans, so I got to watch a ton of their games. Whitner can do it all -- he's a Polamalu clone, in my opinion. Excellent football player. So the mock drafters didn't have him going anywhere near #8 overall? That's fine. I've read since then that Whitner was a lot higher on MANY teams' boards than we all thought (apparently, the Bears had both Whitner and D. Manning higher than Huff :D). I can't give anyone a good reason why Whitner shouldn't have gone ahead of other defenders like Sims, Ngata, Wimbley, et al. They all have their flaws, too.

 

McCargo in the late first? Yeah, that's probably a reach, although a few sources had him as a late-1st-rounder. Others had him as a 4th- or 5th-round pick. Either way, there's no reason to rate the remaining DTs any higher than him. Rodrique Wright went in the 7th, Orien Harris went late, etc. If they really wanted McCargo (which was evident), they certainly had the pick flexibility to go get him. Good for Levy for having guts. I'm sure Jerry Angelo duped Levy into thinking he was about to take McCargo, but, then again, what did the Bears do with the pick? :D

 

Then comes the great part of their draft: Youboty in the 3rd, K. Simpson in the 4th, Kyle Williams & Brad Butler in the 5th, and Keith Elllison in the 6th? Those are all very nice players at excellent value.

 

Even if you judge the draft purely based on where YOU thought players would be selected, their draft is still very solid.

Edited by Swiss Cheezhead
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Okay, first of all I LOVE Donte Whitner. I have a bunch of friends who are OSU fans, so I got to watch a ton of their games. Whitner can do it all -- he's a Polamalu clone, in my opinion. Excellent football player. So the mock drafters didn't have him going anywhere near #8 overall? That's fine. I've read since then that Whitner was a lot higher on MANY teams' boards than we all thought (apparently, the Bears had both Whitner and D. Manning higher than Huff :D). I can't give anyone a good reason why Whitner shouldn't have gone ahead of other defenders like Sims, Ngata, Wimbley, et al. They all have their flaws, too.

 

McCargo in the late first? Yeah, that's probably a reach, although a few sources had him as a late-1st-rounder. Others had him as a 4th- or 5th-round pick. Either way, there's no reason to rate the remaining DTs any higher than him. Rodrique Wright went in the 7th, Orien Harris went late, etc. If they really wanted McCargo (which was evident), they certainly had the pick flexibility to go get him. Good for Levy for having guts. I'm sure Jerry Angelo duped Levy into thinking he was about to take McCargo, but, then again, what did the Bears do with the pick? :D

 

Then comes the great part of their draft: Youboty in the 3rd, K. Simpson in the 4th, Kyle Williams & Brad Butler in the 5th, and Keith Elllison in the 6th? Those are all very nice players at excellent value.

 

Even if you judge the draft purely based on where YOU thought players would be selected, their draft is still very solid.

 

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well they almost certainly could have had whitner at 15, and the broncos were offering them that pick and a 2nd to move up. so they threw away a 2nd round pick there. then they threw away MORE picks to move UP into the high first round to draft a guy no other team was going to touch before their next pick. the criticism isn't who they picked, it's who they screwed themselves out of picking by taking players higher than any other team would have.

 

some article i read this morning said it best....there is absolutely nothing wrong with whitner, mccargo, youboty and simpson. but when they EASILY could have had whitner, winston justice, mccargo, youboty and simpson, then they deserve some major second-guessing.

 

i suppose you could respond by saying hey, there's always a chance whitner and/or mccargo go before buffalo would have been able to pick them, even if it's only like a 1% chance. but if that's true, then they're guilty of locking on to particular players, which is another objectively bad draft mistake. you don't pay through the nose to trade up to take a 3rd round prospect in the first round (even if you have him rated in the 1st round) because there's a slight chance some other team has him rated abnormally high.

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well they almost certainly could have had whitner at 15, and the broncos were offering them that pick and a 2nd to move up.  so they threw away a 2nd round pick there.  then they threw away MORE picks to move UP into the high first round to draft a guy no other team was going to touch before their next pick.  the criticism isn't who they picked, it's who they screwed themselves out of picking by taking players higher than any other team would have.

 

some article i read this morning said it best....there is absolutely nothing wrong with whitner, mccargo, youboty and simpson.  but when they EASILY could have had whitner, winston justice, mccargo, youboty and simpson, then they deserve some major second-guessing.

 

i suppose you could respond by saying hey, there's always a chance whitner and/or mccargo go before buffalo would have been able to pick them, even if it's only like a 1% chance.  but if that's true, then they're guilty of locking on to particular players, which is another objectively bad draft mistake.  you don't pay through the nose to trade up to take a 3rd round prospect in the first round (even if you have him rated in the 1st round) because there's a slight chance some other team has him rated abnormally high.

 

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I would agree with this.

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Then comes the great part of their draft: Youboty in the 3rd, K. Simpson in the 4th, Kyle Williams & Brad Butler in the 5th, and Keith Elllison in the 6th? Those are all very nice players at excellent value.

 

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:D

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Bottom line is this: They got WHO they wanted. Regardless of HOW they got them, they got exactly who they wanted. To those that are second guessing the Bills, lets save this thread for 2 years (this season and next), and we'll see just how "bad" the Bills draft was.

 

Good post Cheeze. :D

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I was going to say this at some point in the other thread as well. They got some decent looking players and addressed needs. The paramount obligation for any team during the draft.

 

In reading some pre-draft pubs, it sounds like they could have traded down instead of getting Whitner @ 1-8, but players like Youboty and Simpson seem like real solid pickups with great futures.

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well they almost certainly could have had whitner at 15, and the broncos were offering them that pick and a 2nd to move up.  so they threw away a 2nd round pick there.  then they threw away MORE picks to move UP into the high first round to draft a guy no other team was going to touch before their next pick.  the criticism isn't who they picked, it's who they screwed themselves out of picking by taking players higher than any other team would have.

 

some article i read this morning said it best....there is absolutely nothing wrong with whitner, mccargo, youboty and simpson.  but when they EASILY could have had whitner, winston justice, mccargo, youboty and simpson, then they deserve some major second-guessing.

 

i suppose you could respond by saying hey, there's always a chance whitner and/or mccargo go before buffalo would have been able to pick them, even if it's only like a 1% chance.  but if that's true, then they're guilty of locking on to particular players, which is another objectively bad draft mistake.  you don't pay through the nose to trade up to take a 3rd round prospect in the first round (even if you have him rated in the 1st round) because there's a slight chance some other team has him rated abnormally high.

 

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So, basically the possible addition of a guy like Winston Justice would offset the risk of missing out on two guys they really wanted? Who's to say that's the case? I'd imagine they had already evaluated all of the 2nd-round-caliber players and decided there were no guys in that group WORTH the risk.

 

Again, it depends on the Bills' pre-draft evaluation of the players. Obviously, you don't want to get into a debate about those evaluations, since the answer is obviously "you won't know for a few years".

 

So, without taking player projections into account, there are two relevant "values" in play here. The first "value" is the approximate draft position where every internet draftnik, ESPN talking head, and football fan THOUGHT certain players would be selected. Okay, let's evaluate the Bills according to that value. They took two guys sooner than they were "supposed" to go. Then, they took five guys later than they were "supposed" to go, including two projected FIRST-ROUNDERS (Youboty and Simpson) in the 3rd and 4th rounds. If the Bills are being criticized for "reaching", why aren't they being credited for snatching the "falling stars" at great value?

 

The only other "value" that's relevant is the value of the Bills front office coming away from the draft smiling. You never want to finish a draft disappointed that you missed out on a coveted player or two. If that player becomes a Pro-Bowler and the player you got "stuck" with sucks, it will haunt you forever. I'm sure Levy, Jauron, and Co. were happy when the final bell rang, and that's a very valuable thing.

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So, basically the possible addition of a guy like Winston Justice would offset the risk of missing out on two guys they really wanted? Who's to say that's the case? I'd imagine they had already evaluated all of the 2nd-round-caliber players and decided there were no guys in that group WORTH the risk.

 

Again, it depends on the Bills' pre-draft evaluation of the players. Obviously, you don't want to get into a debate about those evaluations, since the answer is obviously "you won't know for a few years".

 

So, without taking player projections into account, there are two relevant "values" in play here. The first "value" is the approximate draft position where every internet draftnik, ESPN talking head, and football fan THOUGHT certain players would be selected. Okay, let's evaluate the Bills according to that value. They took two guys sooner than they were "supposed" to go. Then, they took five guys later than they were "supposed" to go, including two projected FIRST-ROUNDERS (Youboty and Simpson) in the 3rd and 4th rounds. If the Bills are being criticized for "reaching", why aren't they being credited for snatching the "falling stars" at great value?

 

The only other "value" that's relevant is the value of the Bills front office coming away from the draft smiling. You never want to finish a draft disappointed that you missed out on a coveted player or two. If that player becomes a Pro-Bowler and the player you got "stuck" with sucks, it will haunt you forever. I'm sure Levy, Jauron, and Co. were happy when the final bell rang, and that's a very valuable thing.

 

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well, if you can't criticize the way buffalo reached and refused to trade down for whitner, or they way they reached and traded UP to grab mccargo, then you simply can't objectively criticize ANY NFL team's draft this year or any other.

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well, if you can't criticize the way buffalo reached and refused to trade down for whitner, or they way they reached and traded UP to grab mccargo, then you simply can't objectively criticize ANY NFL team's draft this year or any other.

 

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You can criticize all you want (and by you I mean anyone). But to say they had the worst draft, or to give them a bad grade (which is irrelevant IMO) is insane. They did nothing but bolster their D by plugging all the holes they had. Now thats not to say their offense is fixed, because it isnt. But to say they did horrible is crazy.

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well, if you can't criticize the way buffalo reached and refused to trade down for whitner, or they way they reached and traded UP to grab mccargo, then you simply can't objectively criticize ANY NFL team's draft this year or any other.

 

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Okay, Az -- criticize them for those TWO picks....then praise them for the next FIVE. In the end, my point is that the good moves at LEAST balance out the bad moves, even in this silly "grading" we inevitably do.

 

How can you disagree with that??

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Okay, first of all I LOVE Donte Whitner. I have a bunch of friends who are OSU fans, so I got to watch a ton of their games. Whitner can do it all -- he's a Polamalu clone, in my opinion. Excellent football player. So the mock drafters didn't have him going anywhere near #8 overall? That's fine. I've read since then that Whitner was a lot higher on MANY teams' boards than we all thought (apparently, the Bears had both Whitner and D. Manning higher than Huff :D). I can't give anyone a good reason why Whitner shouldn't have gone ahead of other defenders like Sims, Ngata, Wimbley, et al. They all have their flaws, too.

 

McCargo in the late first? Yeah, that's probably a reach, although a few sources had him as a late-1st-rounder. Others had him as a 4th- or 5th-round pick. Either way, there's no reason to rate the remaining DTs any higher than him. Rodrique Wright went in the 7th, Orien Harris went late, etc. If they really wanted McCargo (which was evident), they certainly had the pick flexibility to go get him. Good for Levy for having guts. I'm sure Jerry Angelo duped Levy into thinking he was about to take McCargo, but, then again, what did the Bears do with the pick? :D

 

Then comes the great part of their draft: Youboty in the 3rd, K. Simpson in the 4th, Kyle Williams & Brad Butler in the 5th, and Keith Elllison in the 6th? Those are all very nice players at excellent value.

 

Even if you judge the draft purely based on where YOU thought players would be selected, their draft is still very solid.

 

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i dont think the bills did as bad as many said they did, did they reach on a couple of players in some peoples eyes? Yeah but if they truly got who they wanted then good for them...

 

Bottom line is this: They got WHO they wanted. Regardless of HOW they got them, they got exactly who they wanted. To those that are second guessing the Bills, lets save this thread for 2 years (this season and next), and we'll see just how "bad" the Bills draft was.

 

Good post Cheeze. :D

 

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you always want to try and maximize value when drafting either in the NFL or Fantasy Football and all to often in FF you say to yourself I want this guy but i will wait til my next pick(and that pick is only 4 picks away) since he would be a reach at this point and then BANG he is off the board two picks before your next pick...

 

all in all if a team NFL or Fantasy wants a player and they believe in that player then reaching for them isnt so bad

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If I cant get what I want in a trade, I dont make the trade. Value means nothing to me if I lose the player I want trying to be greedy. Whitner was hot to trot and was high on many teams draft boards. Who is to say if buffalo traded down, Detroit wouldnt have taken him. Detroit wanted Michael Huff and settled on a LB when he didnt fall.

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If I cant get what I want in a trade, I dont make the trade.  Value means nothing to me if I lose the player I want trying to be greedy.  Whitner was hot to trot and was high on many teams draft boards.  Who is to say if buffalo traded down, Detroit wouldnt have taken him.  Detroit wanted Michael Huff and settled on a LB when he didnt fall.

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I'm the same way. I'll "overpay" in trades all the time if I have my heart set on somebody.

 

Like I said before, if you really LOVE a player and he ends up being great for somebody else's team, it just plain sucks. On the flip side, if you're right about the player, the "overpayment" is totally irrelevant.

 

I guess the best-case scenario is trading for good value and STILL getting the guy you want, but in the NFL Draft, so much is uncertain that I would hate to just "hope" Whitner fell to my new, lower pick.

 

And, btw, I think it's entirely feasible that the Lions would have picked Whitner.

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espn's chris mortensen on this topic...

 

Mark Ellis (Oakland): Mort, explain why you keep saying the Bills had a horrible draft, when they got two guys they wanted in the first round who were gonna be picked by other clubs (Whitner by Baltimore, McCargo by the Giants).

 

Chris Mortensen: (11:51 AM ET ) First of all, Whitner was not going to be picked by Baltimore. Absolutely not. I never said they had a horrible draft. I said they had a "head scratching" draft. They did over-reach with their first round picks but I said they might end up being good football players. I know there was confusion in he Bills' draft room, too. I did think they did well their picks on the third, fourth and fifth rounds.

....

Nick Swisher (East Bay): Mort, explain your statement that the Ravens were "absolutely not" gonna take Whitner at 13, when Billick admitted on Monday that they were? Also, the Dolphins wanted him at 16.

 

Chris Mortensen: (12:12 PM ET ) The Ravens might have taken Whitner if Ngata was no there. He was one of their considerations if Ngata was gone. Ngata was there and that's who they took.

....

Mat (Scottsdale, AZ): Can you expound on the *there was confusion in the Bills draft room"...

 

Chris Mortensen: (12:16 PM ET ) They were set to take Bunkley and switched. They also could have traded back and still ended up with Whitner.

....

Dan: So the Ravens had strong interest in taking Whitner at 13 acording to Billick? Why dont you admit your error regarding the Bills taking him at 8...I think NFL fans might have more respect for you and think even your buddy Tom Donahoe might have more respect for you!

 

Chris Mortensen: (12:20 PM ET ) Strong interest does not mean they were taking him, especially with Ngata there. The Ravens never deviate from their board. Ngata was ahead of Whitner. What I told you is the truth. You can accept it or not.

....

Mr.Murder(One Raider Nation): The Lions would have taken Whitner. Matt Millen let it be known he wanted Huff and WHitner was considered a round one pick. The Bills had no room to trade back, it was the same situation Houston faced with the Saints wanting Williams unless Bush fell to them. They were going to pick from where they were and take what was there, Houston's hand was forced.

 

Chris Mortensen: (12:26 PM ET ) The Lions wanted Huff or Sims and would have traded back to take Whitner. Traded back, ok?

 

 

read the whole chat, pretty good stuff.

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Okay, first of all I LOVE Donte Whitner. I have a bunch of friends who are OSU fans, so I got to watch a ton of their games. Whitner can do it all -- he's a Polamalu clone, in my opinion. Excellent football player. So the mock drafters didn't have him going anywhere near #8 overall? That's fine. I've read since then that Whitner was a lot higher on MANY teams' boards than we all thought (apparently, the Bears had both Whitner and D. Manning higher than Huff :D). I can't give anyone a good reason why Whitner shouldn't have gone ahead of other defenders like Sims, Ngata, Wimbley, et al. They all have their flaws, too.

 

McCargo in the late first? Yeah, that's probably a reach, although a few sources had him as a late-1st-rounder. Others had him as a 4th- or 5th-round pick. Either way, there's no reason to rate the remaining DTs any higher than him. Rodrique Wright went in the 7th, Orien Harris went late, etc. If they really wanted McCargo (which was evident), they certainly had the pick flexibility to go get him. Good for Levy for having guts. I'm sure Jerry Angelo duped Levy into thinking he was about to take McCargo, but, then again, what did the Bears do with the pick? :D

 

Then comes the great part of their draft: Youboty in the 3rd, K. Simpson in the 4th, Kyle Williams & Brad Butler in the 5th, and Keith Elllison in the 6th? Those are all very nice players at excellent value.

 

Even if you judge the draft purely based on where YOU thought players would be selected, their draft is still very solid.

 

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Well said Cheez :D

 

I had something similar to this in the other thread

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Chris Mortensen: (11:51 AM ET ) First of all, Whitner was not going to be picked by Baltimore. Absolutely not. I never said they had a horrible draft. I said they had a "head scratching" draft. They did over-reach with their first round picks but I said they might end up being good football players. I know there was confusion in he Bills' draft room, too. I did think they did well their picks on the third, fourth and fifth rounds.

 

Sounds like great minds think alike, right Az? :D

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