Is Vick overrated?

[Seahawks21]

I believe one huge point in this argument is being missed. Michael Vick will win at least 2 MVP awards in his career simply because every single player on the team: the offense, the defense, and special teams- plays infinitely harder and better when #7 is on the field. The team will play well whether he plays particularly well or not. He is that special.

The result of this is that the Falcons win more games, and get more playoff appearances--which unless your name is Marino is where QBs show their true value as a player. I really do think he has a chance to be "great".

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

That's the whole point, he had ONE season, 2002... and he got hurt that year too (sure, only 1 game... but it's still happened)... remember, I'm talking abotu more than just fantasy numbers here.

 

1 season does not come close to comparing to Cullpepper's reliability, nor McNabb's and Favre's.

 

Take him over Bulger? Gee, ok, and while your at it you can draft Holmes over Dayne... Go ahead and draft Vick for his POTENTIAL explosiveness... I'll take Culpepper and his RELIABLE explosiveness anyday.

[Chavez]

Seahawks21

Michael Vick will win at least 2 MVP awards in his career

Thank you, Beano Cook.

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

no no, Chavez, he said VICK will win 2 MVPs... not you...

 

;o)

 

But sure, he'll win at least 2... Unless he gets hurt AGAIN.. or just doesn't live up to this enormously predicted potential which everybody says he has (glimpses, but nothing substantial yet).

 

There's not a single legitimit reason in the world why he should be ranked higher than Daunte, Donevan or Payton. And all 3 of those guys have years behind them of success, year after year, injury after injury.

 

Let him prove he's more than a flash in the pan like Kordell Stewart, or he's not more fragile than Sam Jackson in unbreakable. It takes more than 1 playoff win to do this.

[Chief]

quarterbacks usually are awarded .05 per yard, not .1 per yard like rb's and wr's.

[Swiss Cheezhead]

Chief, I apologize in advance if the alcohol is making me meaner than usual, but you need to brush up on your literacy. thumbs_u

[Swiss Cheezhead]

Actually, Wappinger is a better example (in this post) of someone in need of "hooked on phonics".

[Chief]

no apology necessary, was replying to trots reply in this post, i shoulda qouted it so no confusion.

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

Oh my god- are we REALLY going to start dropping "typing skills" bombs here? On a football board?

 

If thats all ya got, though...

[phenom]

Swiss Cheezhead:

 

Trots:

Vick: 178 yards passing, 86 yards rushing, 1 TD = 31 points

Favre: 302 yards passing and 2 TDs = 42 points

 

Jamal Lewis: 142 yards rushing, 2 TDs, 28 yards receiving = 28 points

This is a pretty good illustration of why your scoring system is ridiculous.

 

Why would a very marginal game for a QB score more than an awesome game from a RB?

 

With that scoring system, I shudder to think about the lousy QBs having one good game in the fantasy playoffs and knocking out another squad with good performances from their RBs and WRs. thumbs_d

Wait a minute that isn't an average game from QB. At least FF wise it isn't. When is the last time your QB ran for 86 yards in a game. That's pretty good yardage for a RB much less a QB. The top rushing QB was Culpepper and he had 422 yards for a 30 yard average per game. 86 yards is anything but average...........

[Seahawks21]

I mean, I don't know how this guy's career is going to play out. What I'm pretty sure of, is that his BEST game in his career will be the best game in fantasy fooball history. Just imagine

 

300 Passing

100 Rushing (yay In my league we get YPCarry)

3-4 TDS

 

Depending on how many carries he gets, thats like a 90 pt game in my league.

 

I'm not saying that he is going to be anywhere near consistent, even though I believe he will be...I'm just saying..how fun will those few weeks be that he wins by himself!!!

[Seahawks21]

And I think except for the TD's, those are very conservative yardage numbers!!!! What if he gets like 400 and 120 Yds on 5 carries.

 

40 + 12 + 24(YPC) + 24 (TDs), + 3 (passing bonus), + 3 (Rushing Bonus) =106 pts.

 

I know I'm getting carried away but this is way too much fun

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

good point, hell, he might even pass for like, 600 yrds and rush for 220 one game... and score like, 6 TDs (4 passing, 2 rushing)...just think if he starts returning punts too!!

 

LT lights up teams more consistantly than Vick and HAS won games in my league by himself for the team he was playing on.

 

LT is the best athelete in the NFL today, not Vick. That's coming from a Raider fan who has to fight back the urge to vomit when he types it.

 

;o)

[Big Score 1]

Wappinger what was your point when you started this thread?

 

The thread title implies a question, but it's obvious you had already come to a conclusion.

[Chavez]

Big Score 1

Wappinger what was your point when you started this thread?

 

The thread title implies a question, but it's obvious you had already come to a conclusion.

Perhaps he wanted you to convince him otherwise?

[Controller]

I think of Vick as the Barry Sanders of quarterbacks. By that, I mean he is truly one-of-a-kind -- nobody's ever seen anyone quite like him before, and nobody ever will. I've been in FF for more than 15 years now, and every year he played I tried to get Barry Sanders.

 

Why? Because of his unique talents he was just plain fun to watch. During those same years, I also had guys like Ottis Anderson and Terry Allen help me win titles. But it was Barry with all of his jukes and moves that made every Lions game a "must-see" (back then there was no NFL Sunday Ticket or Tivo). Show me a video tape of Barry's top 20 runs just in Thanksgiving day games during his career, and I'll show you 17 or 18 runs that no other running back could have made.

 

Vick is another incomparable talent, IMO. That's why he's "over-rated". He will do things on the field that no one has ever done before. He already has, and his career is just getting started. I may or may not win my FF league every year because of Vick, but I sure as hell will thoroughly enjoy every one of his big plays as they occur.

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

Big Score 1:

Wappinger what was your point when you started this thread?

 

The thread title implies a question, but it's obvious you had already come to a conclusion.

My opinion of Vick is by far in the minority. I clearly state my stance in the first post, I want people who DO feel he is deserving of the hype to give me a few reason why he deserves to be stroked so much. Please, I am a very open minded debater. I have a clear opinion here, but I am open to hear ANYTHIGN that supports his hype.

 

So please, feel free to convince me if you feel I'm wrong...

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

Controller:

I think of Vick as the Barry Sanders of quarterbacks.  By that, I mean he is truly one-of-a-kind -- nobody's ever seen anyone quite like him before, and nobody ever will.  I've been in FF for more than 15 years now, and every year he played I tried to get Barry Sanders. 

 

Why?  Because of his unique talents he was just plain fun to watch.  During those same years, I also had guys like Ottis Anderson and Terry Allen help me win titles.  But it was Barry with all of his jukes and moves that made every Lions game a "must-see" (back then there was no NFL Sunday Ticket or Tivo).  Show me a video tape of Barry's top 20 runs just in Thanksgiving day games during his career, and I'll show you 17 or 18 runs that no other running back could have made.

 

Vick is another incomparable talent, IMO.  That's why he's "over-rated".  He will do things on the field that no one has ever done before.  He already has, and his career is just getting started. I may or may not win my FF league every year because of Vick, but I sure as hell will thoroughly enjoy every one of his big plays as they occur.

Fran Tarkington had a pretty good scramble, and Staubach wasn't called "Roger the Dodger" for nuthin. Steve Young has THE most amazing QB scramble for a TD I have ever seen, 50 yrds with at least 5 broken tackles and jukes in it. Cunningham was breaking tackles from the backfield and slinging the ball 50 yrds downfield for completions a decade ago. Kordell was called "slash" because he had skills that nobody had ever seen before, and never would again. They were right, as he never really relived that early success and isn't even starting now.

 

I've seen Vick, he had a good season. That's it. He won a single playoff game and got hurt the next year on a routine scramble in preseason. There's nothing he's doing that wasn't done by others, but before crappy shoes from spammers and ESPN weren't marketing machines that they are today- style over substance.

 

He MIGHT turn out to be great, but he hasn't really done anythign yet to back it up. Sanders played in Emmitt's shadow for years before people realised what he was doing was somethign different and special.

 

Vick has a long way to go yet to earn what Barry accomplished.

[BS Miscreant]

The Wappinger Raiders:

 

Big Score 1:

Wappinger what was your point when you started this thread?

 

The thread title implies a question, but it's obvious you had already come to a conclusion.

My opinion of Vick is by far in the minority. I clearly state my stance in the first post, I want people who DO feel he is deserving of the hype to give me a few reason why he deserves to be stroked so much. Please, I am a very open minded debater. I have a clear opinion here, but I am open to hear ANYTHIGN that supports his hype.

 

So please, feel free to convince me if you feel I'm wrong...

Big, most good discussions start with a question or at least a questionable statement. You don't have to be totally devoid of opinions to ask for others.

 

Wapp, we hear this all the time around here and in FF circles in general... to win you're gonna need some luck and you have to occasionally roll the dice on potential. Hell, last season in another league my first two picks were Edge and Lewis(two guys having suffered major knee injuries) because I had a good feeling about them. With Vick, where has great potential ever been so evident? I picked Vick up late last season in a keeper because I was out of it. I'm keeping and starting him this year because, if he's even average(for him), every week I'm essentially starting a pretty good QB and 2 1/2 RBs. If he does what he is capable of, I'm starting a good/very good QB and 3 RBs. RBs rule in FF and if all goes well I'll be the only guy in my league who gets to legally start 3 every week.

[sacosud]

I have to chime in here FF I put him late 2nd maybe early 3rd but I know he will go sooner than that...but isn't alot of FF based on what might be???? He has the talent to explode!!! I mean there is no one more scarier except maybe Culpepper...When I'm at the bar watching the games and The guy I'm playing has Vick playing for him!!! I'm on pins and needles like no other!!! Vick is going to have a good year this year fellas the kid can flat throw the pill a long way Michael Jenkins is a big receiver and is going to really help Vick and Peerless...throw in Crumpler and POW...fantasy mixture for great stats. I still have my Qbs like this C-PEPP,PEYTON,Hasslebeck, Vick maybe..Mcnair maybe those 2 can flipp flop. IF VICK STAYS HEALTHY top 5 qb easy ff wise of course.

[phenom]

Originally posted by The Wappinger  [/qb]I've seen Vick, he had a good season. That's it. He won a single playoff game and got hurt the next year on a routine scramble in preseason.  There's nothing he's doing that wasn't done by others, but before crappy shoes from spammers and ESPN weren't marketing machines that they are today- style over substance.

[/QB]

What did Brett Favre accomplish after 3 years?

1 playoff win and 1 loss

 

John Elway after 3 years

2 playoff losses

 

Troy Aikman after 3 years

1 playoff loss

 

Daunte Culpepper probably the consensus #1 FF QB

has 1 playoff win in his 5 year career

 

Dan Fouts didn't make the playoffs until his sixth year in the league

 

Jim Kelly didn't make the playoff's until his 3rd year and lost 2 of his first 3 playoff games

 

 

It gets on my nerves when people say things like "Well he might be good in the future but right he hasn't done anything."

 

Wow that's really going out on a limb there. You cover all the bases that way don't you. There are few QB's that come in and win a Super Bowl in their first 2 years. The only one I can think of is Tom Brady. Joe Montana took 3 years to win. Mcnabb is still trying, Marino never won one, Peyton Manning hasn't gotten to one. Let's give the kid a few years before we say he is all ESPN hype.........

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

We can take exactly what you said and use that to support my argument. None of the players you mentioned were talked in the breathe as "the best in the game" or "nobody has seen a player like this, and never will again!!" because they had yet to develop into anything special.

 

Elway was a joke still, he sucked his first year. It would take 2 Superbowl wins late in his career before people came around to securing his place amongst the great ones.

 

Favre sat the bench his whole first year in Atl, same the next year in GB.

 

Aikmans first year was a disaster, it took 3 years for that Dallas team to gell.

 

Kelly lost 4 superbowls eventually. Making 4 in a row is a HUGE feat, yet people still question his greatness.

 

I'm with you when you say let's give the kid a few years before we say he's all ESPN hype, but let's put the spin on it. All the players you mentioned were never considered great until much later in their careers, AFTER they had accomplished several seasons of great play. I say let's give the kid a few years to prove that he should even be mentioned in the same breath as the guys you listed, he hasn't done a single thing to warrant it (outside of crappy shoes from spammers and ESPN telling you so).

[Caveman_Nick]

Atlanta with Vick = 9-6-1, playoffs and a win @ lambeau field

 

Atlanta without Vick an with an 'improved defense' = 5-11 and extra time to golf.

 

It's easy math.

 

Add to that the fact that he could easily rush for 1000 yds and 7 TDs, generally good enough to be your #2 back, on top of what should be improved passing numbers throwing to Price who has had time to adjust to the #1 role, Crumpler, and now Micheal Jenkins, plus being supported by Dunn out of the backfield and protected by Duckett as the threat to pound it.

 

I would say he is not overrated.

[Big Score 1]

The Wappinger Raiders:

 

Big Score 1:

Wappinger what was your point when you started this thread?

 

The thread title implies a question, but it's obvious you had already come to a conclusion.

My opinion of Vick is by far in the minority. I clearly state my stance in the first post, I want people who DO feel he is deserving of the hype to give me a few reason why he deserves to be stroked so much. Please, I am a very open minded debater. I have a clear opinion here, but I am open to hear ANYTHIGN that supports his hype.

 

So please, feel free to convince me if you feel I'm wrong...

Fair enough. thumbs_u

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

Caveman_Nick:

Atlanta with Vick = 9-6-1, playoffs and a win @ lambeau field

 

Atlanta without Vick an with an 'improved defense' = 5-11 and extra time to golf.

 

It's easy math.

 

Add to that the fact that he could easily rush for 1000 yds and 7 TDs, generally good enough to be your #2 back, on top of what should be improved passing numbers throwing to Price who has had time to adjust to the #1 role, Crumpler, and now Micheal Jenkins, plus being supported by Dunn out of the backfield and protected by Duckett as the threat to pound it.

 

I would say he is not overrated.

Also simple math:

 

Falcons with Chandler and Anderson: Superbowl appearance

 

Falcons without Chandler and Anderson: Exit from playoffs in rd 2, seat at home watching playoffs following year.

 

Plus, you're assuming he could easily rush for those numbers and pass for more. A year after his breakout season, a pre season defense stuffed him fairly convincingly (knocking him out for 3 months is convincing I think). I think I could also assume that defense have learned to play him and he will scramble less and try to pass more.

 

Simpler math: everybody is assuming he could do more, but the reality is he hasn't done anything outside of that one good year and a playoff win in Lambeu (over a pretty sad GB team). Also, winning 9 games in 1 season isn't that imperessive, it's just over a .500 season.