Auction/Serpentine draft hybrid

[driveby]

I'm thinking about changing my local league from a straight auction to an auction/serpentine draft combo.

 

We switched from a serpentine to an auction last year and it didn't go as smoothly as I had hoped.

 

Anyways, consider this setup....

 

14 teams

15 roster positions

9 starters QB,RB,RB,WR,WR,WR,TE,K,DEF/ST.

 

$100 in auction cash.

 

You bid on players until either;

 

1) You have no money left,

 

or

 

2) You have filled 10 positions - (whichever comes first)

 

Once everyone is either out of money or has 10 players, the serpentine draft starts to fill the remaining roster positions. You keep drafting until you have all 15 positions filled and then you are skipped until everyone has all 15 positions filled.

 

You can spend your auction money as you like; use it to buy 2 players or 10.

 

Pros and cons to this type of player selection idea please?

 

Thanks

[muck]

...hmmm...

 

Interesting.

[Nate Dawg]

...hmmm...

 

Interesting.

 

 

Deep insight here.

 

I think that you will really need to clearly make sure everyone understands how this system will work. Really what you are doing is auctioning off the top players and giving people the opportunity to draft many of their sleepers without having to put them out in the open for others to bid upon. It could be very interesting when someone's trying to slip through a sleeper and right near the end of the auction another owner brings them up for bidding.

 

Will you offer owners who do not spend their entire 100 a reward or is it spend it or lose it? I think it would be hard for teams who do an exceptional job as far as cash management and have a great deal left over to lose a player in the draft they could have/would have bid up if the auction was still going on because they had the most cash.

[Big Country]

I think it undermines the cash management aspect of an auction.

 

Now, if you were to say have teams forfeit picks until all teams were on equal footing as opposed to letting thme draft until they are full, it would lead to a more fair system.

 

Presumably all auctioned players will be higher ranked than those available in the draft... so, if you let a team that acquired 8 players in the auction start drafting immediately along with a team that only acquired 3 players, the team with only 3 players will come in at a big disadvantage, a least IMO. Argument coud be made that team with 3players only from auction bought 3 big studs, but I still think the team with 8 auction players would have too big of an advantage if htey were able to start filling in immediately along with the teams with less players.

[driveby]

I think that you will really need to clearly make sure everyone understands how this system will work. Really what you are doing is auctioning off the top players and giving people the opportunity to draft many of their sleepers without having to put them out in the open for others to bid upon. It could be very interesting when someone's trying to slip through a sleeper and right near the end of the auction another owner brings them up for bidding.

 

Will you offer owners who do not spend their entire 100 a reward or is it spend it or lose it? I think it would be hard for teams who do an exceptional job as far as cash management and have a great deal left over to lose a player in the draft they could have/would have bid up if the auction was still going on because they had the most cash.

 

I'm not sure how I'd handle teams with cash left over. I think most owners would run out of cash before they acquire 10 players. I think spend it or lose it would be my ruling. On the other hand, we charge $1 for each roster move. Maybe I could credit their account with unspent draft money to make their transactions free until the unspent draft funds are used up?

[driveby]

I think it undermines the cash management aspect of an auction.

 

Now, if you were to say have teams forfeit picks until all teams were on equal footing as opposed to letting thme draft until they are full, it would lead to a more fair system.

 

Presumably all auctioned players will be higher ranked than those available in the draft... so, if you let a team that acquired 8 players in the auction start drafting immediately along with a team that only acquired 3 players, the team with only 3 players will come in at a big disadvantage, a least IMO. Argument coud be made that team with 3players only from auction bought 3 big studs, but I still think the team with 8 auction players would have too big of an advantage if htey were able to start filling in immediately along with the teams with less players.

 

I see what you are saying. However, I think a team stocked with studs, for instance spending their entire $100 on Payton, Boldin and LJ might deserve to be penalized slightly versus the team spreading out their funds and picking mid level players and sleepers.

 

Seems to be 2 different but not necessarily unequal stratagies; pick 3 or 4 uberstuds and then fill in when the draft portions starts, or spread out your cash and fill your roster with second tier and upside players before the picking get thin.

[Nate Dawg]

I see what you are saying. However, I think a team stocked with studs, for instance spending their entire $100 on Payton, Boldin and LJ might deserve to be penalized slightly versus the team spreading out their funds and picking mid level players and sleepers.

 

Seems to be 2 different but not necessarily unequal stratagies; pick 3 or 4 uberstuds and then fill in when the draft portions starts, or spread out your cash and fill your roster with second tier and upside players before the picking get thin.

 

I think this is where a clear discussion of possible strategies going into the auction/draft is important so everyone understands how it works. Sure, ideally, owners should understand without this discussion what the different strategies would do to their team, but you can probably make it go smoother and a better experience for the rest of the league by discussing this (and I'm usually the owner who has strategized the best way to use the rules - I just think it's important to make this a good experience for other owners when you try something for the first time). After the first year, they should understand the way the system works, so no more discussion.

[VikesGuy]

Very interesting to say the least.

 

However I think what i like the best about an auction draft is that you always have a shot at a player you want. The most frustrating thing about a serpentine draft is when the player you want gets taken one or two spots ahead of your pick.

 

We have done an auction for 4 years now, the first two were slow but we have moved pretty quickly these past two years. I think it has to do with the fact that people are more prepared now and know who they want and how much they are willing to pay.

[T-Scorp]

Seems to me that you have not given the auction a chance. If it was your first auction (last year) it probably did go a little slower or had hiccups. Most owners were just getting used to the strategey involved. I would at least give it another chance before modifying it.

 

My feeling is that the salaries will be artificially inflated. One of the nuiances of an auction is that you need to have enough money to fill out your roster. If I know I can just draft when I run out of cash, I can spend more on the stud players. (personally I would let the other owners bid big and then start picking off mid tier players when everyone is out of cap room.)

 

If you are set on changing to a combo draft then simply state you will auction off the first 140 players (10 rounds) after that it will switch to a sepentine. Owners who have a full roster (15) will be done and those that who have less will make up picks at the end of the draft. If you don't use your entire cap $ you lose it. (you would have an average of $10 per player) The pro to this is that you speed up the end of the draft. It will force owners to spend their cap wisely...ie if you want to fill out your entire roster during the auction you can. If you want to spend a couple bucks on s stud kicker or defense go for it. If you want to go big and blow your cap on 5 players great but you will know that 135 other players will be gone and most other owners will have all 15 players before you have 11.

Edited July 10, 2006 by T-Scorp

[driveby]

If you are set on changing to a combo draft then simply state you will auction off the first 140 players (10 rounds) after that it will switch to a sepentine. Owners who have a full roster (15) will be done and those that who have less will make up picks at the end of the draft. If you don't use your entire cap $ you lose it. (you would have an average of $10 per player) The pro to this is that you speed up the end of the draft. It will force owners to spend their cap wisely...ie if you want to fill out your entire roster during the auction you can. If you want to spend a couple bucks on s stud kicker or defense go for it. If you want to go big and blow your cap on 5 players great but you will know that 135 other players will be gone and most other owners will have all 15 players before you have 11.

 

This is almost exactly what I'm thinking about doing. The difference as far as I can see is you are suggesting a fixed number of players to be auctioned, 140. Whereas I'm leaving that number up to how the owners want to build their team. Like you said, you can spend your entire budget on 3 or 4 studs and then fill your roster with draft picks later or spread out your budget and bid on mid level players during the auction segment with fewer draft picks during the serpentine.

 

How would you enforce the 140 player requirement if you can spend your money on as many, or as few, players as you want? What if everyone has spent their budgets and only 130 players had been selected?

[rhippens]

rather than allowing people to buy x and draft y, couldn't you just require all the teams to buy 10 during the auction? then fill your rosters with the draft. that way, it would at least limit the guy that buys LT, LJ, and Peyton in the fact that he at least needs to fill another 7 spots with whatever money he has left not just by picking up scrubs that are free later. it still requires some money management.

[T-Scorp]

This is almost exactly what I'm thinking about doing. The difference as far as I can see is you are suggesting a fixed number of players to be auctioned, 140. Whereas I'm leaving that number up to how the owners want to build their team. Like you said, you can spend your entire budget on 3 or 4 studs and then fill your roster with draft picks later or spread out your budget and bid on mid level players during the auction segment with fewer draft picks during the serpentine.

 

How would you enforce the 140 player requirement if you can spend your money on as many, or as few, players as you want? What if everyone has spent their budgets and only 130 players had been selected?

 

 

Great point! That is the con of the whole idea. You never have to budget yourself. However, if you set a bench mark of 140 and everyone knows that is the point you will start the serpentine you at least have a starting point. If everyone is out of cap at 130 you can start the serpetine there. I would suspect that one or two owners will still have money left and could fill out there roster for $1 bids.

 

ie even if 13 owners are out of money at 125 there may be one owner who has 5 players and $20 bucks left. That owner can fillout the remaining spots and no one can do anything about it. It woudl be part of the strategy. However, if at 125, 8 owners still have $$ left you still have 15 players to bid on.

 

Either way will do what you want.

 

I still think you should give the auction another year.

[Avernus]

I think it undermines the cash management aspect of an auction.

 

Now, if you were to say have teams forfeit picks until all teams were on equal footing as opposed to letting thme draft until they are full, it would lead to a more fair system.

 

Presumably all auctioned players will be higher ranked than those available in the draft... so, if you let a team that acquired 8 players in the auction start drafting immediately along with a team that only acquired 3 players, the team with only 3 players will come in at a big disadvantage, a least IMO. Argument coud be made that team with 3players only from auction bought 3 big studs, but I still think the team with 8 auction players would have too big of an advantage if htey were able to start filling in immediately along with the teams with less players.

 

 

I would say the teams with less players get to pick in a certain order until they have the same amount of players the other teams do....

[Pope Flick]

driveby - I'm curious as to what didn't work out last year for your local. You are one of the more vocal auction pimps here which has influenced me to look into adopting it in our local, but resistance is strong in part because another owner knows a league that has been described as 'ruined' by the conversion the year they made the switch.

[driveby]

driveby - I'm curious as to what didn't work out last year for your local. You are one of the more vocal auction pimps here which has influenced me to look into adopting it in our local, but resistance is strong in part because another owner knows a league that has been described as 'ruined' by the conversion the year they made the switch.

 

don't get me wrong, I loved the auction. But by the time we got to the $1 scrub players everyone was drunk and or tired. I was looking for a way to allow everyone a shot at the players they really want (the reason I switched to the auction in the first place) and at the same time wrap it up in a timely manner. I think with a combo, auction first and draft second, I can accomplish both. As I think more about it I think I am going to mandate that everyone has to acquire 10 players in the auction portion to keep the money management aspect of the auction intact, and then we will take a break, let everyone stretch and refocus, and then knock out the draft portion for the last 5 spots. Some of the guys spent their money early and sat around with nothing to do for the last hour or more of the auction last year. Tacking the draft on to the end will allow them to keep involved and give them something to look forward to, IMO.

[VikesGuy]

Some of the guys spent their money early and sat around with nothing to do for the last hour or more of the auction last year.

 

 

 

That is exatly what happened the first year we did it as well, however the next year those guys that were sitting around doing shots were the one bidding at the end. They didn't make the same mistake twice.

 

Don't get me wrong i think you are on to something here. But if you don't make a manditory number of players that have to be drafted by the end of the auction you are going to end up with the same problem maybe even worse.

 

ie. I want LT and LJ for 50 each say. Then i am done and i have to sit around and wait again?

Edited July 11, 2006 by VikesGuy

[The Hitter]

driveby,

 

I'm an active participant in a 16-team (1 flex player) league with an auction/serpentine draft. We've used the same format for almost 11 years and never had a problem. Works great. I think its the most strategic draft that I'm involved in (I play in 7 total leagues). If you think the combo draft/auction makes it tough, try it with 15 other owners! Yet its still the most fun I have.

 

We do it almost exactly as you mentioned. The commish sends out a list of approx the top 100 players (usually the top 15 or so QBs, top 30 or so Rbs, top 40 or so WRs, top 10 or so TEs). Also included is 16 'open' spots (one for each league team). The list usually goes out 2 weeks prior to the draft. It helps a lot. We then do a drawing for draft order and set that in stone.

 

Then the auction starts. $100 cap. Team #1 'nominates' a player and the bidding starts. Then pick #2 nominates a player, etcetcetc. A team can nominate any player from the list. We proceed through all of the available players until the list is complete.

 

Then, any team that has any remaining cap funds left can nominate any player that was not on the list. The other owners with funds available can bid on that player or hold onto their $$ until its their turn to make an "open" nomination. But only one per owner is allowed. If there are 5 teams left with cap funds after the list of players has been used up, then only 5 'open' nominations will occur. Almost always there are owners with cap funds that are 'lost'. This is also part of the strategy. Ex: I had $5 left last year and nominated a decent sleeper player. Another owner got him for $6. Only one other owner had funds available ($4) and he knew that no matter what player he nominated, I could outbid him for that player. So instead of 'helping' my roster, he simply waived his nomination and forfeited his funds, also causing me to forfeit mine. In hindsight, I could've just nominated a mediocre player and the $6 owner would've probably waited for the $4 owner to make his nomination.

 

Then the seprentine draft starts. Once a player has reached 18 roster spots, then he is done for the draft. The serpentine draft continues until all rosters have 18 players.

 

I would suggest any active fantasy owner to try to get in on this format at least once in their lives. It's an absolute blast. And like I said, its the most difficult, strategy-wise, of any draft I do, year in and year out. I've tried several different theories and some worked out and others were not so good. I've seen a guy go after Peyton and LT with all of his funds. He ended up grabbing the rest of his players in the serpentine draft and was basically sucking from day 1 of the season since he could only get quality points from 2 players every week. Last year, the guy that won the title still had his $100 cap room with only 30 players left. Then he outbid everyone and loaded up on 9-10 tier-2 players. When the auction was done, he already had a nice starting lineup, along with depth at RB and WR. He went 11-1 regular season and crushed me in the title game. You can bet that there will be several other owners trying that strategy this year which means some players nominated early in the auction will be had at 'under value'. I'm already looking forward to it this year.

 

Good luck with your league and, if you have any questions about any of the above or any other items from our league, just shoot me a pm or email. I'd be glad to help.

[T-Scorp]

Good info Hitter!!!

[BeeR]

I'm thinking about changing my local league from a straight auction to an auction/serpentine draft combo.

 

We switched from a serpentine to an auction last year and it didn't go as smoothly as I had hoped.

First year of a big change in a league usually doesn't. How so and why give up so quickly?

 

Pros and cons to this type of player selection idea please?

This "hybrid" isn't common but not overly rare in auctions either - but IMO just makes it unnecessarily complex, for one. Also after the frantic hectic pace of auctioning, suddenly down-shifting into a snake draft - for scrubs no less - would IMO be anything BUT interesting. In fact pretty slow and even boring, esp for those who spend their money earlier and are just hanging out waiting for the yahoos holding onto every last dollar to get on with it for backups to backups.

 

Just stick to a full auction.

[whitey]

This is the system that my league uses. Our league starts with a 4 round auction-each team has $100 to spend. In order to prevent someone from spending all $100 on 2 players, each player taken in the serpentine has an automatic salary of $1. So, here is a sample of how it shakes out:

 

Auction:

1st round--you win Larry Johnson for $40

2nd round-you win Willie Parker for $12

3rd round--win TJ Houshmanzada for $5

4th round--win Peyton Manning for $20

So the auction ends and you have picked up four players, and you have spent $77. We have a minimum roster of 13 players, so you would have to make at least 9 picks in the draft, at $1 per pick. So, you pick 9 players, spend another $9, brining your total spent to $86. That leaves you with $14 left, and a sick feeling in your stomach because that money could have been used to get better players in the auction!

 

That is why you don't worry about owners who have left-over money. After the first auction, they will realize that having left over money is worthless. Don't forget, that since it's an auction in the first four rounds, that is 48 players nominated in a 12 team league. You aren't limited to 1 player per round in auction-one guy in our league last year got 9 players in 4 rounds, then had no money left for the draft, meaning he had a good starting lineup, but zero depth.

 

I don't know if this makes sense-post a question to the thread and I'll try to explain more.