Bronco Billy Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 yup. every player who holds out understands that. these contingencies are just as surely bargained into the contract terms as the possibility of the team cutting the player. yet you try and draw some sort of meaningful distinction between the two in terms of "honoring the terms of the contract". that's just dumb. Wha.....? The reason a team gets to fine a player $14,000 a day, and eventually recover a portion of the guaranteed money, is because a player has crossed the line and failed to honor his part of the contract by holding out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Wha.....? The reason a team gets to fine a player $14,000 a day, and eventually recover a portion of the guaranteed money, is because a player has crossed the line and failed to honor his part of the contract by holding out. Wonder why that was specifically bargained for and inserted into the CBA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 :When players take the guaranteed money up front (the signing bonus), they know - per the contract agreement between the NFL & NFLPA that they are legally obligated to play for the team for a certain number of years, depending upon what the contract was for, and that the team can cut them - thereby not having to pay for any remaining year(s) salary on the contract, but also knowing that the team can not recover any of the signing bonus. I don't understand what is so hard to understand, why it is so difficult to fathom that it is equitable for both sides, and what the legal obligations are on each side. Kennison can talk all he wants. In the end, he'll be at camp. Just like TO. Just like Walker. Too expensive to sit at home and collect fines. And give the team reason to come after your signing bonus is not very smart. He's just bitching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 So quit being so obtuse. Give yourself a break with the condescending :SIGHS: Get off your high horse and join the rest of us, you NFL contract snob, you. I feel the obligation to be condescending. When people feel that players are getting screwed over when they get 59.5% of the league's gross revenues & huge signing bonuses that they voluntarily took in an exchange for years of service, it just never fails to amuse me (right up to the point where it gets maudlin & tiresome). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Kennison can talk all he wants. In the end, he'll be at camp. Just like TO. Just like Walker. Uhhh...Walker might've caved last year, but he sure got what he wanted this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 I feel the obligation to be condescending. When people feel that players are getting screwed over when they get 59.5% of the league's gross revenues & huge signing bonuses that they voluntarily took in an exchange for years of service, it just never fails to amuse me (right up to the point where it gets maudlin & tiresome). Ah well...since you feel obligated to be condescending... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 There is no such thing as outperforming a contract. You get paid to put 110% in. To perform to the best of your ability. Now - if a team would like to pony up and give a guy a raise, fine. Or they can quit - and flip burgers or mow lawns somewhere. Nobody is forcing them to play. The only reason signing bonuses are so high is because a team can cut a player 'whenever'. That is the balancing factor - not a players ability to hold out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 There is no such thing as outperforming a contract. Many NFL organizations and GM's disagree with you Duchess Jack. I've heard / read GM's say player X has outperformed their contract when renegotiating player X's contract while said contract was still in force. You get paid to put 110% in. To perform to the best of your ability. Agreed. Now - if a team would like to pony up and give a guy a raise, fine. Or they can quit - and flip burgers or mow lawns somewhere. Nobody is forcing them to play. Or, as provided in the CBA signed by both the NFL owners & the NFLPA, players can stage a holdout to try and get the club to give them a raise. The only reason signing bonuses are so high is because a team can cut a player 'whenever'. That is the balancing factor - not a players ability to hold out. Wrong. The only reason signing bonuses are so high, is because in the NFL, that is the only part of any contract, that is 100% garaunteed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Two questions: 1) Any idea how often these "didn't show to camp on time" fines are actually collected by the team from the player? Personally, I'd bet that most of them are waived if the player eventually reports. 2) And, Az...I would be open to Lelie...he's a younger version of Kennison...fast w/ questionable hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Wrong. The only reason signing bonuses are so high, is because in the NFL, that is the only part of any contract, that is 100% garaunteed. What? What Duchess said is absolutely true. It's a trade off. Because the teams can cut you at any time, they agree to give you up-front, guaranteed money. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 What? What Duchess said is absolutely true. It's a trade off. Because the teams can cut you at any time, they agree to give you up-front, guaranteed money. . . You may as well try to convince the Sun to rise in the West... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Comprehension skills down Hook? Duchess said Bonuses are high, because it allows teams to rescind a contract whenever they wish. I said bonuses are high, because it's the only guaranteed money in a contract. Same thing, different wording, different emphasis. You feel obligated again BB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingd Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Kennison to have the 45th-highest 2006 salary among the NFL’s 64 starting wide receivers. Sounds about right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 (edited) Comprehension skills down Hook? Duchess said Bonuses are high, because it allows teams to rescind a contract whenever they wish. I said bonuses are high, because it's the only guaranteed money in a contract. Same thing, different wording, different emphasis. You feel obligated again BB? Yeah, when someone states something that is correct and you say emphatically that they wrong. Signing bonuses are guaranteed money that is a trade off for years of service and the team's ability to cut a player and their annual salary at any time. The size of a signing bonus is usually based upon the resume a player has built in the league, or their relative draft position as a rookie. Not all signing bonuses are high. I'd say the Duchess' take is more correct than your position. Edited July 28, 2006 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolv Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 I would be all for playing players if they 'outperform' their contract if they agreed to pay back $$ in the event they 'underperform' their contract. But of course we know THAT will never happen.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 (edited) Comprehension skills down Hook? Duchess said Bonuses are high, because it allows teams to rescind a contract whenever they wish. I said bonuses are high, because it's the only guaranteed money in a contract. Same thing, different wording, different emphasis. But you said Duch was "wrong". No backtracking now. . . Edited July 28, 2006 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 2) And, Az...I would be open to Lelie...he's a younger version of Kennison...fast w/ questionable hands, and a total f'n primadonna dooosh quitter. he'll fit right in with eddie and the chefs. fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 fixed. Truth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 (edited) Yeah, when someone states something that is correct and you say emphtically that they wrong. Duchess was both right & wrong. Signing bonuses are high because of the trade off in allowing teams to rescind the contract at anytime. The reason bonuses can get sooo high is because the players & their agents know this and when they go to negotiate a contract their priorities are; (1) $$$ of signing bonus (2) getting the signing bonus in one lump sum, as opposed to multiple years (3) $$$ of other bonuses (4) easily achievable incentives triggering the other bonuses (5) $$$ of annual salary (6) length of contract In that order (unless you're Ricky Williams & your agent is Master P ) I think you know this, but you're just wanting to be obtuse again. Signing bonuses are guaranteed money that is a trade off for years of service and the team's ability to cut a player and their annual salary at any time. The size of a signing bonus is usually based upon the resume a player has built in the league, or their relative draft position as a rookie. Not all signing bonuses are high. So, you're saying the size of a signing bonus a player & his agent can shoot for, depends on how the player has performed in the past, or if the player is a rookie, where he was drafted? Gee...really? What a brilliant observation. I wonder why nobody else ever figured that out before? Sorry BB, but you've earned a for self sanctimonious dropping of unnecessary knowledge I'd say the Duchess' take is more correct than your position. I'd say your take on the positions is wrong. EDIT: For the Ricky Williams / Master P dig Edited July 28, 2006 by Big Score 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Sorry BB, but you've earned a for self sanctimonious dropping of unnecessary knowledge if that's a penalty now, i hope you've got a whole truckload of those hankies around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 But you said Duch was "wrong". No backtracking now. . . Who is backtracking? Duchess was wrong with where the emphasis was placed, in explaining why signing bonuses are so high. The fact that a signing bonus is the only 100% guaranteed money in a contract, is why they're so high. Everybody knows that ...well... everybody except BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Trick Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 fixed. Ah, but those Chefs will get the last laugh this year, not your cheating Donkeys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 if that's a penalty now, i hope you've got a whole truckload of those hankies around Yeah, BB does seem to be in love with dropping all kinds of obvious and unnecessary knowledge doesn't he? I dig his takes on the Broncos though. Now that's where the man can drop some serious knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Duchess was both right & wrong. Signing bonuses are high because of the trade off in allowing teams to rescind the contract at anytime. The reason bonuses can get sooo high is because the players & their agents know this and when they go to negotiate a contract their priorities are; (1) $$$ of signing bonus (2) getting the signing bonus in one lump sum, as opposed to multiple years (3) $$$ of other bonuses (4) easily achievable incentives triggering the other bonuses (5) $$$ of annual salary (6) length of contract In that order I think you know this, but you're just wanting to be obtuse again. So, you're saying the size of a signing bonus a player & his agent can shoot for, depends on how the player has performed in the past, or if the player is a rookie, where he was drafted? Gee...really? What a brilliant observation. I wonder why nobody else ever figured that out before? Sorry BB, but you've earned a for self sanctimonious dropping of unnecessary knowledge I'd say your take on the positions is wrong. So you say that what I am posting is so obvious & basic, but then you manage to throw out a last comment that I am wrong. This has been explained at length to you on two boards by numerous people - and you still don't get it. I surrender. It's no use trying to have a rational conversation with you on this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 (edited) Who is backtracking? Duchess was wrong with where the emphasis was placed, in explaining why signing bonuses are so high. The fact that a signing bonus is the only 100% guaranteed money in a contract, is why they're so high. Everybody knows that ...well... everybody except BB And the reason they want that money is? BECAUSE THEIR CONTRACTS ARE NOT GUARANTEED! THEY CAN BE CUT AT ANYTIME!! Edited July 28, 2006 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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