Comparing CPep and Palmer's injuries

[Fogg]

Culpepper's injury is all about stability. I believe he had a torn ACL, PCL and MCL. All three are stability ligaments. MCL injuries when occuring alone often won't need surgery as they have a fair to good tendency to repair themselves while the patient wears a brace and rehabs. ACL and PCL tears in the elite athlete are almost always surgical cases.

 

Patient essentially has two choices. A graft of tissue is taken from another ligament and then is surgically fixed to replace the torn ligament (some risk of increased instability because the graft comes from the patients knee). Choice two is the donor graft (taken from a cadaver). Choice two is the preferable choice for the athlete although their are some disease risks. There's also a synthetic choice, but I don't know much about it and I've never seen it done.

 

As I said earlier, Culpepper's injury is a stability issue. They tighten these graft ACLs and PCLs up pretty tight so sometimes a person will have stiffness in the knee, but there isn't a ton of risk of reinjury without the right circumstances.

 

Palmer's injury was ACL, MCL and Medical Meniscus tear. They call this the "Terrible Triad". They call it that for a reason. The ACL and MCL have the same concerns as Cpep's injury but there is the addition of the meniscus. The menisucus is also involved in stability but even more so is a force transducer. When a person is walking, running or pivoting, they are placing a force through their meniscus. The tear is typically treated by shaving it down leaving as much cartilage as possible. What's worse is that the meniscus has a really miserable blood supply. I believe meniscus repairs, even in perfect situations run about a 20% rescope rate to remove further tissue. No blood = poor repair = higher rate of reinjury.

 

If I had to choose, I'd probably take Culpepper's injury. They both will have some stiffness/stability concerns, but Palmer is probably going to have pain as an issue too and of course the risk of needing to be rescoped. Palmer's not a running QB which is good sort of, but I wouldn't want to be sitting in that pocket waiting for the blind side hit and not have the wheels to get out of there.

 

I think Culpepper will have the freedom to be Culpepper: a mobile QB. Palmer on the other hand will take some time to get confident. Without reinjury, both will be fine in the end. Redraft: avoid Palmer. Keeper: take him and get a good back up.

 

I don't do much in the way of post-surg rehab. I've watched several. Maybe somebody on the list is an ortho, PT, or ATC and can add a more front-line perspective on this?

 

Hope I didn't bore all of you.

Fogg

[piratesownninjas]

Who is this guy coming into the huddle and breaking down ligaments and what not... I think i'm actually getting smarter by reading Foggs posts...

 

I think I'd rather have Palmers injury on him just because he's a traditional pocket passer. Culpepper scares me because I think he'll run and take the hits...

Edited August 16, 2006 by piratesownninjas

[MrTed46]

Isn't Palmer much younger than Culpepper?

I think that should be taken into consideration as well.

 

Great post though. I am going to sound like a geek at the draft.

[Big Dogs]

Dr. Fogg -- Huddle Rookie of the Year!!!

 

 

Great Info Doc....

Edited August 16, 2006 by Big Dogs

[Big Score 1]

Patient essentially has two choices. A graft of tissue is taken from another ligament and then is surgically fixed to replace the torn ligament (some risk of increased instability because the graft comes from the patients knee). Choice two is the donor graft (taken from a cadaver). Choice two is the preferable choice for the athlete although their are some disease risks. There's also a synthetic choice, but I don't know much about it and I've never seen it done.

Palmer had Choice Two.

 

On the human interest side, here is an article about Julie De Rossi, the person who donated her Achilles tendon for Palmer's reconstructive ACL surgery.

 

www.bloomberg.com - Carson Palmer Runs Again on Tendon of Woman Hit by Drunk Driver

[loaf]

good read Fogg, thanks! Same to your BS1

[Bronco Billy]

That's a pretty strong analysis, but I think some may have mischaracterized Culpepper.

 

Culpepper used to be a running QB. It seems that he has learned that his health is hinged to how much he takes off out of the pocket. Here are his career stats for rushing:

 

 

'00 5.63 cpg 29.4 ruypg

'01 6.45 cpg 37.8 ruypg

'02 6.56 cpg 37.7 ruypg

'03 5.14 cpg 30.1 ruypg

'04 5.56 cpg 25.4 ruypg

'05 3.29 cpg 21.1 ruypg

 

So what we see is pretty much a smooth curve with Culppper's running being maximized in '01 & '02 and progessively decreasing from '02 onward.

 

So instead of calling Culpepper a running QB right now, I'd call him a mobile QB. Palmer is pretty Manning-esque: he doesn't run the ball at all, preferring to stand in the pocket and throw his way out of trouble.

 

As far as talent, I like Palmer much better. But coming off of a significant knee injury, I'll take a mobile QB over one who stands immobile in the pocket. I'm concerned that Palmer is pushing himself too hard, especially coming off the injury he sustained as compared to Culpepper's - which has almost become a yawner as far as repair for sports medicine practitioners.

Edited August 16, 2006 by Bronco Billy

[major-tom]

Ok Fogg give it up. Are you a doctor or did you just stay in a Holiday Inn Express?

[Kid Cid]

This is why the huddle is #1. You just don't get this level of analysis at any other FF site. Or any national news site. Or even ESPN. Dayum.

[Fogg]

 

So instead of calling Culpepper a running QB right now, I'd call him a mobile QB. Palmer is pretty Manning-esque: he doesn't run the ball at all, preferring to stand in the pocket and throw his way out of trouble.

 

 

 

You're right. "Mobile" is certainly a better descriptor than "running". He was able to redefine his game in the way that coaches and analysts are always talking about when it comes to athletic running QBs.

 

I think he is going to be surprising this year. I think he has better talent all the way around than last year (Chambers, McMichael, and Brown vs. ?, ?, and ?).

 

Fogg

[BigTen]

Culpepper's injury is all about stability. I believe he had a torn ACL, PCL and MCL. All three are stability ligaments. MCL injuries when occuring alone often won't need surgery as they have a fair to good tendency to repair themselves while the patient wears a brace and rehabs. ACL and PCL tears in the elite athlete are almost always surgical cases.

 

Patient essentially has two choices. A graft of tissue is taken from another ligament and then is surgically fixed to replace the torn ligament (some risk of increased instability because the graft comes from the patients knee). Choice two is the donor graft (taken from a cadaver). Choice two is the preferable choice for the athlete although their are some disease risks. There's also a synthetic choice, but I don't know much about it and I've never seen it done.

 

As I said earlier, Culpepper's injury is a stability issue. They tighten these graft ACLs and PCLs up pretty tight so sometimes a person will have stiffness in the knee, but there isn't a ton of risk of reinjury without the right circumstances.

 

Palmer's injury was ACL, MCL and Medical Meniscus tear. They call this the "Terrible Triad". They call it that for a reason. The ACL and MCL have the same concerns as Cpep's injury but there is the addition of the meniscus. The menisucus is also involved in stability but even more so is a force transducer. When a person is walking, running or pivoting, they are placing a force through their meniscus. The tear is typically treated by shaving it down leaving as much cartilage as possible. What's worse is that the meniscus has a really miserable blood supply. I believe meniscus repairs, even in perfect situations run about a 20% rescope rate to remove further tissue. No blood = poor repair = higher rate of reinjury.

 

If I had to choose, I'd probably take Culpepper's injury. They both will have some stiffness/stability concerns, but Palmer is probably going to have pain as an issue too and of course the risk of needing to be rescoped. Palmer's not a running QB which is good sort of, but I wouldn't want to be sitting in that pocket waiting for the blind side hit and not have the wheels to get out of there.

 

I think Culpepper will have the freedom to be Culpepper: a mobile QB. Palmer on the other hand will take some time to get confident. Without reinjury, both will be fine in the end. Redraft: avoid Palmer. Keeper: take him and get a good back up.

 

I don't do much in the way of post-surg rehab. I've watched several. Maybe somebody on the list is an ortho, PT, or ATC and can add a more front-line perspective on this?

 

Hope I didn't bore all of you.

Fogg

 

Nice post, but I have had 3 kneee surgeries (ACL replacement by bone graft, torn miniscus, torn MCL and broken knee cap). I would not want either. I still to this day get pain and swelling after a lot of running or jumping (no more basketball for me) and I still experience stiffness after 15 years. Yeah, when completely healed and back to "normal" you can say that you are just about as strong internally as before but there are two things that will be a hinderance to both guys. One, their mobility will never be what it was in the first place, and two, their mentality may never heal (will they be afraid to take a hit or make a cut?). Yeah, these guys have the best doctors out their but you never know how the body will accept the repairs. Will the body reject the grafts? Will the grafts hold? No matter what anyone says, there is no sure thing with these two guys even if they come back with a "healthy" report card. Either way, both will never completely be what they were before IMHO.

Edited August 16, 2006 by BigTen

[Bronco Billy]

Nice post, but I have had 3 kneee surgeries (ACL replacement by bone graft, torn miniscus, torn MCL and broken knee cap). I would not want either. I still to this day get pain and swelling after a lot of running or jumping (no more basketball for me) and I still experience stiffness after 15 years. Yeah, when completely healed and back to "normal" you can say that you are just about as strong internally as before but there are two things that will be a hinderance to both guys. One, their mobility will never be what it was in the first place, and two, their mentality may never heal (will they be afraid to take a hit or make a cut?). Yeah, these guys have the best doctors out their but you never know how the body will accept the repairs. Will the body reject the grafts? Will the grafts hold? No matter what anyone says, there is no sure thing with these two guys even if they come back with a "healthy" report card. Either way, both will never completely be what they were before IMHO.

 

 

I don't mean to be offensive, even though I know it will come off that way - but I'll get over it.

 

For anyone posting at a FF message board comparing their injuries & rehab to that of a pro athlete is ludicrous - and a few do just that.

 

I'm fairly confident that you do not have the resources available that pro franchises do in repairing their most value assets. Teams think nothing of spending hundereds of thousands of dollars in repairing the injuries of players that represent millions of dollars in investment. They literally hire the best physicians - ones who specialize in nothing but these types of operations. The operations are performed under the most premier conditions available. But most importantly, the rehab performed by trainers, thearpists, and players is second to none, spending hours each day with the best in the recuperative field - which I also am fairly confident that you didn't have available to you. And that doesn't predispose that these are in the top .1% of athletes in the world, which I also am fairly confident that you don't qualify for.

 

There's no way that you can make any meaningful comparison between your experience and that of a recovering NFL player - none whatsoever. You anecdotal exeprience has little to no relevance to the analysis of the recovery of either Culpepper or Palmer, or any other injured NFL player.

 

Again, no offense intended, but that's pretty much the way it is....

[BigTen]

I don't mean to be offensive, even though I know it will come off that way - but I'll get over it.

 

For anyone posting at a FF message board comparing their injuries & rehab to that of a pro athlete is ludicrous - and a few do just that.

 

I'm fairly confident that you do not have the resources available that pro franchises do in repairing their most value assets. Teams think nothing of spending hundereds of thousands of dollars in repairing the injuries of players that represent millions of dollars in investment. They literally hire the best physicians - ones who specialize in nothing but these types of operations. The operations are performed under the most premier conditions available. But most importantly, the rehab performed by trainers, thearpists, and players is second to none, spending hours each day with the best in the recuperative field - which I also am fairly confident that you didn't have available to you. And that doesn't predispose that these are in the top .1% of athletes in the world, which I also am fairly confident that you don't qualify for.

 

There's no way that you can make any meaningful comparison between your experience and that of a recovering NFL player - none whatsoever. You anecdotal exeprience has little to no relevance to the analysis of the recovery of either Culpepper or Palmer, or any other injured NFL player.

 

Again, no offense intended, but that's pretty much the way it is....

 

As I posted, I realize that they have WAY more at their disposal than me, but the fact is that they will still experience some of the same things that I and others have. Just beacuse they are athletes does not mean that their bodies automatically will accpect the surgey and its repairs. I gues I have no idea what they will go through and I have no "meaningful comparison" to offer. I was merely trying to offer some of the things that they will feel. And by the way I also used a specialist, "one who specialized in nothing but these types of operations".

Edited August 16, 2006 by BigTen

[Bronco Billy]

And by the way I also used a specialist, "one who specialized in nothing but these types of operations".

 

 

 

And you (or your insurance) paid them the same amount to repair you that NFL teams pay to repair their athletes, right?

[BigTen]

 

And you (or your insurance) paid them the same amount to repair you that NFL teams pay to repair their athletes, right?

 

 

Since you will assume that you know everthing about me by a post on an experience that I had I guess you know everything about me right? Did you also know that I bad other injuries that I suffered as well? Did you also know that it took me a year to learn how to walk properly? I guess that because I am not a pro athlete I just had a local party store doctor repair my leg, no spedcialist needed here. I guess that becaue I am not a pro athlete I cannot accept the services of a specialist. You just look up in the yellow pages for a doctor and he/she takes care of your problems, right?

[Big Score 1]

BB is partly correct in his write up on the difference between John Q Public's ACL surgery & a Pro Athletes ACL surgery.

 

First to show where he doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

There is NO difference between John Q Public's ACL reconstructive surgery & a Pro Athletes ACL reconstructive surgery.

 

Dr Andrews, who is probably this countries foremost orthopedic surgeon, operates on all people, not just athletes. Anybody who wants to, can go to him at his practice in Birmingham Alabama.

 

Dr Andrews does not have a "special" operating room with "special" instruments & "special" equipment or a "special" way of doing the actual ACL surgery, which he reserves solely for professional athletes.

 

Now this is where BB does know what he's talking about.

 

Pro Athletes do have far more rehabilitation resources available to them, than John Q Public does.

[alexgaddis]

 

And you (or your insurance) paid them the same amount to repair you that NFL teams pay to repair their athletes, right?

 

Allow me to step in here, I actually performed the surgery on Daunte Culpepper...it went okay I guess, I wasn't exactly sure what I was doing but I did see lots of blood and stuff...

[Bronco Billy]

Since you will assume that you know everthing about me by a post on an experience that I had I guess you know everything about me right? Did you also know that I bad other injuries that I suffered as well? Did you also know that it took me a year to learn how to walk properly? I guess that because I am not a pro athlete I just had a local party store doctor repair my leg, no spedcialist needed here. I guess that becaue I am not a pro athlete I cannot accept the services of a specialist. You just look up in the yellow pages for a doctor and he/she takes care of your problems, right?

 

 

Fair enough. Looks like I'm moving you into my top 10 FF QB list for this year. GB picking up a sleeper of your caliber in my leagues.

 

:thumbsup:

 

Like I said, someone always seems to get severely bent out of shape because I have the temerity to explain that NFL athletes get exponentially better surgical & recovery services, and have the capability of recovering better due to their physical condition & physiological superiority.

 

Today it's your turn.

 

I'm sure that you injuries were very traumatic to you, and I actually wish that you hadn't had to have gone through what you did. That doesn't change that there is an extremely high probability that NFL players get much better care than you do when it comes to injury recovery.

[BigTen]

BB is partly correct in his write up on the difference between John Q Public's ACL surgery & a Pro Athletes ACL surgery.

 

First to show where he doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

There is NO difference between John Q Public's ACL reconstructive surgery & a Pro Athletes ACL reconstructive surgery.

 

Dr Andrews, who is probably this countries foremost orthopedic surgeon, operates on all people, not just athletes. Anybody who wants to, can go to him at his practice in Birmingham Alabama.

 

Dr Andrews does not have a "special" operating room with "special" instruments & "special" equipment or a "special" way of doing the actual ACL surgery, which he reserves solely for professional athletes.

 

Now this is where BB does know what he's talking about.

 

Pro Athletes do have far more rehabilitation resources available to them, than John Q Public does.

 

Good post. You are right on in reference to the rehab. There is no comparison in the service I received after surgery and pro athletes. I was just offering an experience. However, I had mine 15 or so years ago and technology and medical service are way better now. For all anyone knows, they may not experience any problems. But I do not think you need to throw a guy under a bus for sharing something.

[BigTen]

Fair enough. Looks like I'm moving you into my top 10 FF QB list for this year. GB picking up a sleeper of your caliber in my leagues.

 

 

 

About time you saw the potential!

[kerwin8]

Good post. You are right on in reference to the rehab. There is no comparison in the service I received after surgery and pro athletes. I was just offering an experience. However, I had mine 15 or so years ago and technology and medical service are way better now. For all anyone knows, they may not experience any problems. But I do not think you need to throw a guy under a bus for sharing something.

 

 

 

I beg to differ. A forum is not the place to be sharing stories or posting information. You're going to need to take this kind of thing elsewhere in the future.

[Bronco Billy]

 

 

Dr Andrews does not have a "special" operating room with "special" instruments & "special" equipment or a "special" way of doing the actual ACL surgery, which he reserves solely for professional athletes.

 

 

 

 

I never made that claim, so please stop putting words in my mouth.

 

However, to think that doctors have the same standard of care when they have almost unlimited resources available to them when performing surgery on pro athletes as opposed to what is available when they operate on common folk is silly.

 

The doctor knows he has to get the pro athlete on his feet ASAP, and so he will take the extra time, effort, & resources - and that's the key word - to return the athlete to as close as possible to original condition. They won't do that for the average Joe - because they know the average Joe doesn't rely on being in prime physical condition to earn millions of dollars. That doesn't mean they do shoddy or haphazard work on average people. It simply means that they take a great amount of extra care with pro athletes that they simply couldn't afford to do with the average Joe.

 

Do you really think otherwise?

[kerwin8]

Do you really think otherwise?

 

 

Yes, I do. Are you seriously trying to make the claim that any professional surgeon would put more "care" and "effort" into some surgeries than others? That, if anything in this thread, is ridiculous.

 

I can see it now... Dr. Andrews plows through 100 "common folk" life-changing surgeries in a day, but reserves a week for Mr. Culpepper so that he gets it just right. Give me a break...

[BigTen]

I beg to differ. A forum is not the place to be sharing stories or posting information. You're going to need to take this kind of thing elsewhere in the future.

 

[Coffeeman]

This one time at band camp, I hurt my knee.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...but now its better.