Who is Bryant Gumbel?

[Swiss Cheezhead]

To make it really simple, the salary structures of the NBA and MLB are more like communism, while the NFL is more like capitalism. You EARN your money in the NFL and I have no problem with it.

 

Just because the NFL is different than the NBA and MLB doesn't mean the other two are "right." Upshaw isn't incompetent -- NBA and MLB owners are incompetent. NFL players aren't getting "underpaid" -- NBA and MLB players are OVERpaid.

 

The only people getting "ripped off" in this discussion are fans of the MLB and NBA teams who are currently hamstrung by ridiculous guaranteed salaries.

 

Plus, didn't Gumbel see what kind of job Upshaw did in the recent CBA negotiations? That was a HUGE victory for the players.

 

On the related topic, I also don't think race has to be an issue here. If Gumbel wants to make it an issue overtly, then we can talk about it.

 

HOWEVER, even if you think his comments on the Olympics are way off base, your counterpoint should NOT be, "OMG -- if a white guy said that about the NBA...!!!" THAT shouldn't matter.

 

If a comment has merit, then there shouldn't be any problem with ANYONE saying it. As long as it doesn't generalize and insult a group of people, racial discussion is perfectly fine. In fact, I can't wait till we get to a point in our culture when we can talk about issues of race without getting all worked up about it.

 

Also, JJ's comment about Gumbel being "the whitest black guy on the planet" (or whatever) is another example of borderline ignorance. You're basically saying that, TO YOU, Gumbel acts like a white person. The problem is that people's personalities aren't determined by their race. Gumbel can act however he wants; he shouldn't have to ever hear that he's "a white guy in a black guy's body." A white guy who likes hip-hop shouldn't be called a "wigger." All that crap is just stupid. Haven't you seen "Malibu's Most Wanted"??

[Bronco Billy]

jealous?

 

Nope. Just mildly amused.

[Vet]

Also I fail to see how getting paid $500,000 to 5 million or more per year to play a game is considered rape. The guy flipping burgers makes a tiny fraction of that and often doesn't even have health insurance. A pro athlete has every opportunity to hire financial advisers to take care of that fat salary and ensure they have a lucrative retirement. If they fail to do so, and their career is cut short because of injury, well that was a stupid move. No one needs 7 cars and a 15,000 SF house.

 

 

A common misconception.

 

Most players do not make $550K to $5 million per year. There are about 3,000 players on NFL teams and practice squads in any given year. If you took the average of all those players - from the Peyton Mannings to the lowest paid guy on the practice squad - it's probably about $150-$200K per year. And the "big time" atheletes skew that number considerably. And, if the practice squad guy making minimum salary gets his knee blown out in 7-on7's and is carted off walks with a limp the rest of his life, you'll never hear about it. And, according to the big long post above, he's "guaranteed" $150K for his efforts. A lot of us make that in 3-6 months and we don't take the risk of having our spines severed.

[godtomsatan]

I appreciate the link to the 1993 CBA to address the question of what kind of benefits debilitated players have.

 

In a nutshell, a player must have a football related injury and be unable to play in the last game of the season. They must have surgery performed and/or follow a club-specified rehab program in the off-season. A physical is performed before training camp to determine if injury is still debilitating.

 

If the player is released before this point (or contract expires?) or as a result of debilitation, the "benefit" is 50% of the salary UP TO $250,000 (as of 2004) unless otherwise negotiated in a player contract. The benefit amount is also subtracted from any guaranteed amount due the player. You can only make this claim once in your NFL career, and if you sign another contract with a club, your benefit is renegged and has to be paid back.

 

So, realistically speaking, given the conditions outlined in Section 1 and Section 2 of the link provided by Bronco Billy, how many players do you suppose got this benefit from last year (as an example)?

[godtomsatan]

yeah, right. just like fuzzy zoeller talking about fried chicken wasn't making tiger woods' race an issue. hey, he just said maybe he'd like some fried chicken.

 

 

What the hell are you talking about?

 

Why are you such a t@rd? You're the one that brought it up.

[Vet]

I'm not saying they don't deserve that money. I'm saying they don't deserve a guaranteed contract if they fail to live up their end of the bargain.

 

 

 

Matt - I think we're on the same page here. I don't think Alex Rodreguez is worth $250 million, but he's guaranteed that money whether he gets another hit in his life or not. But if Peyton Manning - who's worth more to his sport than Rodriguez is to baseball - gets his knee blown out tomorrow, he gets his siging bonus and this year's salary. That's "it".

 

Sure, it's a lot of money. But relative to the other sports, the average NFL players gets screwed - in my humble opinion.

 

And, believe me, I don't agree with Bryant Gumbel on much....if anything!

[Azazello1313]

Also, JJ's comment about Gumbel being "the whitest black guy on the planet" (or whatever) is another example of borderline ignorance. You're basically saying that, TO YOU, Gumbel acts like a white person. The problem is that people's personalities aren't determined by their race. Gumbel can act however he wants; he shouldn't have to ever hear that he's "a white guy in a black guy's body." A white guy who likes hip-hop shouldn't be called a "wigger." All that crap is just stupid. Haven't you seen "Malibu's Most Wanted"??

 

 

well i said something of the sort, and no, it's not that TO ME gumbel "acts white". i mean, my whole point was that this criticism, coming from other prominent black folks (i'm sure he could give two chits what i think), made gumbel feel like he had to become some sort of outspoken jackass speaking truth to power or whatever. ya know, say controvertial chit to gain some street cred. it's just clear to me that gumbel is flip-flopping around amidst all of society's bullchit racial attitudes blowing him this way and that.

[godtomsatan]

You do know that Upshaw is elected by representatives whom the players select, don't you?

 

 

Whoa, I just thought he was Tagliabue's best friend. Thanks for clearing that up.

[matt770]

A common misconception.

 

Most players do not make $550K to $5 million per year. There are about 3,000 players on NFL teams and practice squads in any given year. If you took the average of all those players - from the Peyton Mannings to the lowest paid guy on the practice squad - it's probably about $150-$200K per year. And the "big time" atheletes skew that number considerably. And, if the practice squad guy making minimum salary gets his knee blown out in 7-on7's and is carted off walks with a limp the rest of his life, you'll never hear about it. And, according to the big long post above, he's "guaranteed" $150K for his efforts. A lot of us make that in 3-6 months and we don't take the risk of having our spines severed.

 

 

Then don't play football. The players know the risks, and the vast majority make out very well. Other sports throw millions away on players that don't earn it. The NFL is a better product because it doesn't.

[Donutrun Jellies]

Gumbel might be a tool and a waste of air.... but he is right if I was a player in the NFL I would look at the other sports and wonder how come my money isnt guaranteed like theirs even if I suck. Upshaw has done what is best for the league and sport in my opinion but not for the players pockets.

 

The role of a union is not to run its industry into the ground -- that's what has destroyed the modern union. Biggest problem with public schools? Teachers unions -- not the teachers, the unions that only look out for their dues, not the children. Same thing in sports. As soooon as the good of the game or even the good of the league takes a back seat to the participants' pockets, disaster looms. Upshaw has had the foresight to see this and has shown that reasonable men, with the greater good as a shared goal, can create fabulous success for management and worker alike.

[Vet]

Then don't play football. The players know the risks, and the vast majority make out very well. Other sports throw millions away on players that don't earn it. The NFL is a better product because it doesn't.

 

 

 

Or, they could play football and be adequately compensated.

 

Owners make hundreds of millions of dollars over 20 or 30 years of owning a franchise. I understand that they put up capital and take risks in buying the franchise and I don't begrudge them a dime.

 

But players put up just as much capital - human capital. I've never seen an owner carted off in a neckbrace after a tough loss. NFL players literally sacrifice their bodies for the game. They walk with limps, live with the lingering effects of multiple concussions, and die at a remarkably low average age as far as human beings go. Yeah, they may know the risks going in - but it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be compensated along the lines of other sports. If you, like I do, think football is the greatest American sport, then I don't see how you think that football players shouldn't be compensated at the same level and in the same way that baseball and basketball players are paid.

 

For example, I'm a Jets fan and I find it sickening how New York fans have turned on Chad Pennington after the guy has literally sacrificed his body for the team. Here's a guy who has literally left it out on the field. No one ever questioned his arm before he tore his rotator cuff. If you say you did, you're a liar. Yet the guy goes out there, plays in pain, may have ruined his arm permanently in order to take his team to the playoffs a couple of years ago - and he's now crucified by "fans" despite the fact that he has taken multiple pay cuts to help the Jets as far as the salary cap is concerned. If he was a basketball player or a baseball player, he would have taken his guaranteed $64 million and he's be sailing in the Caribbean right now. Or dogging it on the field like so many baseball and basketball pros.

 

Again, you can argue that all athletes are overpaid. I'd probably agree with that. But relative to other sports, football players are taking it up the butt.

[Swiss Cheezhead]

All you're saying is that NFL owners don't share enough money with their players. It's oversimplification. Not every NFL franchise is an immensely profitable enterprise.

 

Recent history has shown us that the financially "lesser" NFL teams DO increase their player payroll if/when they get new stadiums built. That's about the time players get paid their "fair share" from the team's revenue pot.

 

The real point, however, is that the MLB and NBA salary structures are BROKEN. The NFL is the only sports powerhouse right now, and a big reason for that is that fans understand the players are ALWAYS playing for their paychecks.

[spain]

Whoa, I just thought he was Tagliabue's pet.

 

fixed

[major-tom]

My God, think if the NFL were as stupid as MLB or the NBA and offered guaranteed salaries for the entire length of a contract, given the roster sizes of the NFL.

 

Not to mention the violent nature of the sport and probably a greater number of career ending injuries.

[Vet]

Recent history has shown us that the financially "lesser" NFL teams DO increase their player payroll if/when they get new stadiums built. That's about the time players get paid their "fair share" from the team's revenue pot.

 

Not sure that's true. Can you give me a couple of examples of teams that have increased their salaries as a result of, or in order to build, a new stadium? Last I checked the NFL had a salary cap and almost every team is at, or close to, the cap. Did the Arizona Cardinals dramatically increase salary to fill thir new stadium? Maybe...I really don't know. I'd be interested in some numbers if their available.

 

 

The real point, however, is that the MLB and NBA salary structures are BROKEN. The NFL is the only sports powerhouse right now, and a big reason for that is that fans understand the players are ALWAYS playing for their paychecks.

 

 

I agree. MLB and NBA are f'ed up.

 

But, I think Gumbel's point, which I happen to agree with, is that Tagliabue - and even Rozelle before him - has had a pretty compliant players union when it has come to collective bargaining. I think it's a bit much to say thatUpshaw has been "on a leash", but I do think the NFLPA is very weak relative to the other major sports players unions.

[Vet]

Not to mention the violent nature of the sport and probably a greater number of career ending injuries.

 

 

 

Which is exactly why the players union should be lobbying more agressively for guaranteed contracts.

[H8tank]

how come my money isnt guaranteed like theirs even if I suck.

 

 

whaaaa?

 

CONGRATS!!! The NEW, most STUPIDEST post EVAR written at the huddle!!!!!!

[Swiss Cheezhead]

Not sure that's true. Can you give me a couple of examples of teams that have increased their salaries as a result of, or in order to build, a new stadium? Last I checked the NFL had a salary cap and almost every team is at, or close to, the cap. Did the Arizona Cardinals dramatically increase salary to fill thir new stadium? Maybe...I really don't know. I'd be interested in some numbers if their available.

I agree. MLB and NBA are f'ed up.

 

 

Off the top of my head, the Cardinals are definitely one of the examples. They were fairly active in FA this year and they've already basically promised their fans that they'll contine to be that way now that they have a new stadium. Also, I believe the Colts' payroll steadily went up (all the way to the cap) after they got their new dome. No, I don't have specific numbers, but it's pretty well known that the big-spending teams (Washington, Dallas, etc.) are the teams with huge revenue.

 

But, I think Gumbel's point, which I happen to agree with, is that Tagliabue - and even Rozelle before him - has had a pretty compliant players union when it has come to collective bargaining. I think it's a bit much to say thatUpshaw has been "on a leash", but I do think the NFLPA is very weak relative to the other major sports players unions.

 

 

I'm sorry, but it doesn't look like you'll ever understand the point that it's NOT in ANY NFL INTEREST for them to guarantee contracts. Even the players aren't crazy about the idea.

[Retrograde assault]

I thought grumbel was dead!

[byron2112]

Supposedly NFL players get a bigger share of their leagues revenues than players from the other sports.

 

I also don't shed a tear for the players bodys. There are millions of Americans that risk blown out back and all sorta serious injury every day for a fraction of what NFL players make.

 

Not everyone not playing football sits on there ass all day

Edited August 23, 2006 by byron2112

[Bronco Billy]

Whoa, I just thought he was Tagliabue's best friend. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

If you are going to make a pretense of being ignorant, expect people here to judge you accordingly.

[Vulture]

 

whaaaa?

 

CONGRATS!!! The NEW, most STUPIDEST post EVAR written at the huddle!!!!!!

 

 

 

How the hell is it the stupidest post. I m sorry but if my union was not getting me the same pay as people in equivilent proffesions (mlb and nba in this case) I would be pissed off and NFL players have alot to be pissed about. MILLIONS infact. That was also a sarcastic statment meaning if I m a decent player making chump change (relative of course) working my ass off and in different sports jerks make more than me with less risk something is seriously wrong.

 

I personally feel nba and mlb should emulate football closer it would create a better sport IMHO. but to say Upshaw is doing a good job for the players when other unions have gotten guaranteed money is absolutely false. Why exactly is football the only major sport of the top 3 not giving guaranteed money? If you think its because it creates a better sport your wrong its because the owners dont want to pay for it just like they dont want to pay for stadiums. This is not a hobby for them even if they love the sport it is still about MONEY, fame and power. you and I in the long run are just $$ signs.

[Menudo]

Ummm, wouldn't be doing what is best for the league also be doing what is best for the players, since the salary cap numbers (and hence salaries) are based upon a direct percentage of the gross revenues of the league?

 

There is main reason why the NFL is easily the most popular of the 4 majors (if you can call the NHL a major anymore) - the salary cap levels the playing field for all franchises. Franchises that used to spend decades being bad can, with shrewd management & good coaching, turn the franchise into a legit contender in 3 years - even less at times. That gives all fans legitimate hope for their teams every year before the season starts, and that's good business all around - for ticket sales, merchandising, and for the players.

 

My God, think if the NFL were as stupid as MLB or the NBA and offered guaranteed salaries for the entire length of a contract, given the roster sizes of the NFL. Teams could be literally in financial hell for huge blocks of years at a time with no recourse, which in turn would ruin the league.

 

Bryant doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to the business side of pro sports, and what he said above is blatant proof of that.

 

 

 

Very well said.

[Redfish]

The role of a union is not to run its industry into the ground -- that's what has destroyed the modern union. Biggest problem with public schools? Teachers unions -- not the teachers, the unions that only look out for their dues, not the children. Same thing in sports. As soooon as the good of the game or even the good of the league takes a back seat to the participants' pockets, disaster looms. Upshaw has had the foresight to see this and has shown that reasonable men, with the greater good as a shared goal, can create fabulous success for management and worker alike.

 

 

I was really dreading the thought of a reply to this thread and the ensuing battle with "those that will not see reason". Thanks, Donutrun, for capturing all of my thoughts in this incredibly well stated paragraph. What he said. And the idea that NFL players are being financially raped is

[matt770]

How the hell is it the stupidest post. I m sorry but if my union was not getting me the same pay as people in equivilent proffesions (mlb and nba in this case) I would be pissed off and NFL players have alot to be pissed about. MILLIONS infact. That was also a sarcastic statment meaning if I m a decent player making chump change (relative of course) working my ass off and in different sports jerks make more than me with less risk something is seriously wrong.

 

I personally feel nba and mlb should emulate football closer it would create a better sport IMHO. but to say Upshaw is doing a good job for the players when other unions have gotten guaranteed money is absolutely false. Why exactly is football the only major sport of the top 3 not giving guaranteed money? If you think its because it creates a better sport your wrong its because the owners dont want to pay for it just like they dont want to pay for stadiums. This is not a hobby for them even if they love the sport it is still about MONEY, fame and power. you and I in the long run are just $$ signs.

 

 

Unions suck. I work for a telecom company and our techs are unionized. Half of them are completely brain dead but are protected simply because of their length of service. It is embarrassing to get on a call with a multi million dollar customer to turn up a new T3 line or whatever, and the tech can barely perform the job. Meanwhile whenever there are layoffs, the decision is made strictly based on length of service...and we've lost some of the most dedicated, intelligent technicians as a result. The longer these people are in the union, the less motivated they become and the less valuable they are to the company. They do the bare minimum to get by. The newer people are still learning and have some enthusiasm and fresh ideas. Drives management crazy, but there is nothing we can do. Of course every 3 years when their contract comes up for renewal, these idiots like to get together and demonstrate, wearing their matching t-shirts with union slogans and chanting their stupid gripes and threatening to strike. Of course the company reaches an agreement with them every time. I would love it if we could break them. Go ahead and strike you idiots, get lost and don't come back. We'd be hurting for about 3 months but I'm convinced we'd gain millions in productivity over the long haul. My guess is at least half of them would cross the picket line and sign on as non-union workers, and we could pick and choose which ones to hire back.

 

This has nothing to do with football, I just had to vent about unions.