Vikes fake FG: Who got the points in your league?

[msaint]

Having a little dispute in my league as to who should get the points for the Longwell-to-Owens fake FG TD. CBS, which is our host, has always given those fluke-ish scores to the kicker himself (e.g. when Vinatieri threw a TD to Troy Brown vs. Rams, AV got the TD pass points). But you could argue (and a guy in our league is) that the points should go to the Vikes D/ST because once Longwell was no longer in his kicking role he was on special teams.

 

So, did this come up in your league and how was it resolved?

[Mr.OG]

Longwell did.

 

Why would the defense? Its still a fourth offensive down.

 

Tell those guys to get over it.

[Ziachild007]

We give it to both.

[Trots]

We give it to neither.

[BillyBalata]

I've always considered this to be a standard, albeit unwritten, rule in the FF community that for pts to count towards Def/ST, there has to be a "change of possession.". No change of possession, it was an offensive play.

For it to be otherwise, I think you have to have it specifically written into your rules that Special Teams have special rules.

[budlitebrad]

once Longwell was no longer in his kicking role he was on special teams.

 

I thought that since there was no kick, it wasn't technically a ST play?

[Pope Flick]

A Field Goal is an offensive formation. If they ran a planned fake that involved their #1 RB for instance then why would it go to the defense?

[Big Country]

How can this still come up every year?

 

There was a legal forward pass, thus making it a regular offensive play.

 

There was no kick attempted, thus it is not a special teams play.

 

Until there is an actual attempted kick, the personnel and formation is irrelevant, it is the act of attempting a kick that makes a play a special teams play.

 

In a college game this weekend, there was a play. Team lined up for a FG. Snap to the holder who stood and ran an option, wit hthe pitch to the kicker who scored a TD. Designed offensive play. It was scored as a regular offensive play as no kick was attempted. This is no different than what happened with Longwell, whether designed (which it was) or on the spot due to bad snap/etc. This is no different than Ladainian Tomlinson or Troy Brown throwing a pass.

 

Unless you have specifically defined passing TDs to be scored to special teams or team defense, which means ALL passing TDs, not just ones determined at the discretion of the commish or other entity, then they would not get the points.

 

If you have not defined passing TDs as a scoring category for kickers, then Longwell should not get the points.

 

Thus, if you do not have passing TDs defined as a scoring category for kickers, special teams, team defense, etc., then there is no way you can award the points for this regular passing play that happened in the game.

 

If you are like most leagues now where the regular offensive categories (pass/run/recieve) are scored across the board for all non-team positions (unless you use Team QB), this is a non-issue and the points go to Longwell individually. If you have separate rules by position and have not defined passing TDs as a category for kickers, as noted above, then no one gets points for the passing TD.

[Azazello1313]

the kicker should get those points, IF your league scoring is set up so that kickers are awarded points for passing, rushing, etc. there is no way the vikes D/ST should get points for it, as they simply ran an offensive play. the fact that they ran the offensive play out of a "special teams" formation is absolutely meaningless, it's still just another offensive play.

[MikesVikes]

The defense/special teams should not get credit for that unless the rules specify otherwise. It is an offensive play. Without looking, I could tell you that one league would count it for the Defense and the other wouldn't.

Edited September 18, 2006 by MikesVikes

[Sugar Magnolia]

I have Longwell in a Yahoo league and Longwell was given the points, but it is in blue font with an asterick. I've never seen that before. I'm not sure what this means-they just better not take it away from me. If they do, I will probably lose this week, depending on tonight's outcome.

[teewhy]

I personally don't think there's a right or wrong way to score it, most importantly, pick a way and apply it to league rules. I personally think it's a designed offensive play and should be awarded to the kicker and receiver or whatever the situation my be and not the special teams. That can be easily argued tho. Pick a way and stick with it.

[Kid Cid]

Big Country said it best. It's an offensive play from an offensive formation.

[Big Score 1]

It depends on your leagues rules. What do they say?

[Caveman_Nick]

Having a little dispute in my league as to who should get the points for the Longwell-to-Owens fake FG TD. CBS, which is our host, has always given those fluke-ish scores to the kicker himself (e.g. when Vinatieri threw a TD to Troy Brown vs. Rams, AV got the TD pass points). But you could argue (and a guy in our league is) that the points should go to the Vikes D/ST because once Longwell was no longer in his kicking role he was on special teams.

 

So, did this come up in your league and how was it resolved?

 

 

 

Longwell would get the points in all of my leagues. All 8.

 

A pass play is not a special teams play. It is an offensive play and should be resolved normally.

[major-tom]

Longwell would get the points in all of my leagues. All 8.

 

A pass play is not a special teams play. It is an offensive play and should be resolved normally.

 

 

I agree with this, and I got beat in one of my leagues because of it. No way should a team defense/special team get the points.

[LooGie]

I have Longwell in a Yahoo league and Longwell was given the points, but it is in blue font with an asterick. I've never seen that before. I'm not sure what this means-they just better not take it away from me. If they do, I will probably lose this week, depending on tonight's outcome.

no no...the blue asterick is just in case a person recieved points for a category not shown in his regular categories. for instance, a kicker doesn't have a "passing yards" column, therefore it would be a blue asterick. If you click it, it would pop up a window explaining the extra points.

 

Longwell will get the points in 99.99999999999% of all leagues. Even communists know that.

 

Whatever league chooses otherwise is based on in-humane principles and should be disbanded by order of the republic.

[Bier Meister]

We give it to both.

 

 

my locals do as well.

[dread]

We give it to both. The special team unit was on the field when they scored. Many of the arguments I've seen say because it was a pass it was on offensive play. But what happens if the kick was attempted, it was blocked, then the kicker picked up the ball and threw it for a TD? What about when the Washington RB returned the kickoff for a TD? The points should go to both the player (if he was started) and the special teams unit. Not giving the RB points in this situation would be like not giving LT points when he throws a TD pass.

[msaint]

Longwell will get the points in 99.99999999999% of all leagues. Even communists know that.

 

Whatever league chooses otherwise is based on in-humane principles and should be disbanded by order of the republic.

 

 

 

Agree. The Vikings D/ST owner brought it up when he saw that Longwell got the points (it didn't affect the oucome of any game). We've ALWAYS gone by CBS Sportsline scoring, which awards the pts to the kicker because, as Big Country and others said, it's an offfensive formation/play because no special teams kick was attempted, and until a kick is attepted, he's just another offensive player.

 

[sigh]It just comes up every year[\sigh], guys have no short term memory, apparently.

[Azazello1313]

But what happens if the kick was attempted, it was blocked, then the kicker picked up the ball and threw it for a TD?

 

what if monkeys flew out of longwell's butt, they got the ball and did the harlem globetrotter weave, and then THEY threw it for a TD?

[alexgaddis]

How can this still come up every year?

 

There was a legal forward pass, thus making it a regular offensive play.

 

There was no kick attempted, thus it is not a special teams play.

 

Until there is an actual attempted kick, the personnel and formation is irrelevant, it is the act of attempting a kick that makes a play a special teams play.

 

In a college game this weekend, there was a play. Team lined up for a FG. Snap to the holder who stood and ran an option, wit hthe pitch to the kicker who scored a TD. Designed offensive play. It was scored as a regular offensive play as no kick was attempted. This is no different than what happened with Longwell, whether designed (which it was) or on the spot due to bad snap/etc. This is no different than Ladainian Tomlinson or Troy Brown throwing a pass.

 

Unless you have specifically defined passing TDs to be scored to special teams or team defense, which means ALL passing TDs, not just ones determined at the discretion of the commish or other entity, then they would not get the points.

 

If you have not defined passing TDs as a scoring category for kickers, then Longwell should not get the points.

 

Thus, if you do not have passing TDs defined as a scoring category for kickers, special teams, team defense, etc., then there is no way you can award the points for this regular passing play that happened in the game.

 

If you are like most leagues now where the regular offensive categories (pass/run/recieve) are scored across the board for all non-team positions (unless you use Team QB), this is a non-issue and the points go to Longwell individually. If you have separate rules by position and have not defined passing TDs as a category for kickers, as noted above, then no one gets points for the passing TD.

 

+1

 

Period.

 

End of Story...

 

...well until the next time it happens of course...

[Big Country]

We give it to both. The special team unit was on the field when they scored. Many of the arguments I've seen say because it was a pass it was on offensive play. But what happens if the kick was attempted, it was blocked, then the kicker picked up the ball and threw it for a TD? What about when the Washington RB returned the kickoff for a TD? The points should go to both the player (if he was started) and the special teams unit. Not giving the RB points in this situation would be like not giving LT points when he throws a TD pass.

 

 

If passing TDs or yardage are not defined for RBs, then Tomlinson SHOULD NOT be awarded points for any passing that he does.

 

If return TDs are not defined for INDIVIDUAL players, then INDIVIDUAL players SHOULD NOT be awarded points for returns.

 

Now, the kick attempt is where I nearly put an asterisk up above, as there is some interpretation on what constitutes an attempt.. some would say any contact of the ball to the foot, others state that the ball must actually have crossed the line of scrimmage.

 

In the situation you describe regarding the blocked kick, I believe it is an illeagal forward pass and would be a penalty. I don't believe the offense can advance the ball on a blocked kick attempt.

 

Technically speaking, the only time the special teams is truly on the field is on kickoffs. For field goals and punts, it is an offensive formation generally performing a non-regular offensive play, however, many teams have designed offensive plays that employ trickery, such as direct snap to the RB, the flea flicker, etc., or lining up in a formation that generally would lead to a kicking of the ball but instead performing a regular offensive play.

 

Formation is irrelevant.

 

Personnel is irrelevant.

 

The result of the play is all that is relevant. Even if the original intent of the play was to punt/kick a FG, but due to a bad snap or fumbling of the catch of the snap the play becomes a run/pass, it is by definition a regular OFFENSIVE play, and not a special teams or defensive play.

 

If your rules fail to account for a non-QB throwing a forward pass, then your leagus is SOL.

 

If your rules fail to account for the possibility of a started player returning kicks, then you are SOL if you start that individual (many leagues omit returns from individuals on purpose)

 

If your rules fail to account for any of the myriad of "unusual" plays that still happen every year (kicker run/pass for a TD, QB catching a tipped pass for a TD, offensive fumble recovery for a TD, double turnover returned for a TD), then you are SOL when those situations come up.

[McBoog]

Longwell gets a passing TD plus the yards if you are performance. He passed it.

 

Owens gets a recieving TD plus the yards if you are performance. He caught it.

 

It was run as an offensive play from a Special teams look. Formation is, as said earlier, irrelevant! Down is irrelevant as well. When a team's QB sneaks a TD on 4th and inches, does the special teams get those points? Does the Special teams get the kicker's points on a field goal as well?

 

 

These are the issues that almost made me walk away from the game this year! What a bunch of s. When people are this blind to reality and this hyped about points is when it really isn't fun anymore!

 

[Azazello1313]

i think every league needs a rule that states clearly that ALL scoring must be resolved and put into the mechanics of the hosting website or whatever BEFORE the season, and that once the season starts the automated scoring is FINAL and BINDING and nobody gets points for anything not specifically awarded points in the scoring setup.

 

you don't really need it on a no-brainer case like this one, but inevitably in just about every league some whiner will raise hell about some play or other that should have been scored differently. your league rules should defend against it.