Vick flying under the radar

[Bill Swerski]

No pun intended right?

 

 

 

I should get paid to read some people's opinions here because they are that stupid.

 

 

You should get paid to put your mouth on Ron Mexico's herpes-infected weeener, given how often you're doing it here.

 

Atlanta's running game is entirely reliant on Vick. If you take him away, you take away the stretch option they're running, you take away the effectiveness of the play action pass/run, you basically eliminate the element that helps the Falcons run game be what it is. To say that it doesn't matter who is under center is 100% incorrect.

 

 

Wrong. You could put a pocket passer like Brady, Palmer, or either of the Mannings and it would probably be MORE effective because they can actually complete deep passes and, therefore, keep the safeties out of the box.

Edited September 19, 2006 by Bill Swerski

[fruhoff]

You mean the games where Atlanta's defense dominated and their offensive line moved the chains against two highly-overrated defenses? Would those be the same games that Vick threw for 92 and 140 yards?

 

I want to see what Vick can do when his defesne and running game aren't off-the-hook good. Oh, wait, I've already seen those games. Nevermind.

 

 

 

We have to remember....

 

1. Fantasy-wise Vick was a Top 10 QB last year (depends on the league, but in some was #5)...even on an 8-8 team....hmm...this is fantasy football we're all playing right (points, points, points)?

2. Led his team to playoffs 2 of 4 years (one of those four was injured a good portion of the year)....one was an NFC Championship Game...

3. Carolina has been picked by many to go to the big dance (over-rated? ...surely they aren't a one player team [s. Smith] eh?)

 

The Falcons-D was decimated by injuries last year...and was a big contributor to the team's collapse.....see Chicago Bears the last however many years.....you can win without a prototype QB....actually Rex Grossman may be coming along finally....

 

With a much improved D this year, it would be interesting to see CHI and ATL in the NFC title game (two...according to everyone...lackluster QBs....playing to go to the big dance)

 

Defense wins Super Bowls...not QBs...

 

I agree with everyone on this point....a play away from the lovely INJURY REPORT....but that's what Matt Shaub is for...

 

Vick discussions are always fun because many can't stand the fact that he's successful as a non-prototypical QB...

[fruhoff]

You should get paid to put your mouth on Ron Mexico's herpes-infected weeener, given how often you're doing it here.

Wrong. You could put a pocket passer like Brady, Palmer, or either of the Mannings and it would probably be MORE effective because they can actually complete deep passes and, therefore, keep the safeties out of the box.

 

 

 

How many Super Bowls has Peyton Manning been too? Peyton is evidence that being a prototypical QB does not guarantee a ticket to the big dance...

 

I believe Brady is a good QB....with all the "average" Joes the Patriots have...its evident that its the Belicheck system that is the key driver...think the Pats have lost too many contributors to make it this year...

 

Carson Palmer is good, but with a Defense losing players...could find trouble down the road...

 

Vick has the best chance to dance because his team has a very good D...assuming John Abraham and company keep from hitting the IR...

 

Question: Should we assume when Vick has a bad game...he must be having an outbreak?

[Bill Swerski]

How many Super Bowls has Peyton Manning been too? Peyton is evidence that being a prototypical QB does not guarantee a ticket to the big dance...

 

 

I never said that it did. What I said was that a QB who can throw the ball accurately gives a team a better chance to win a SB than an inaccurate scramber who can't read defenses.

 

Strong defense and the ability to control the clock are the keys to winning. Right now, it looks like the Falcons are doing both brilliantly.

[broncosn05]

Vick is the best quarterback in the league. He is far known to be an overrated QB in fantasy, but is very underrated especially in leagues where 25 yards=1 pt and a TD=4. Sure we'll be seeing the hate threads later in the year where most of you will flip flop and be the first to yell Schaub

 

SUPERBOWL.

[Chavez]

Vick discussions are always fun because many can't stand the fact that he's successful as a non-prototypical QB...

 

More the fact that he's moderately successful as a non-prototypical QB AND massively overhyped for it.

 

Like Swerski said, we'll see what happens if/when they face a D that can take away the running game - generally the way to defend an option is to play disciplined assignment football; if people start freelancing, it's game over. But if that doesn't happen and they stay reasonably healthy, they will do VERY well.

 

As it stands, right now the Falcs seem to be going by the old saw "3 things can happen when you throw the ball and 2 of them are bad." I'm curious to check out how well a spread option works in the NFL next week.

[kerwin8]

Wrong. You could put a pocket passer like Brady, Palmer, or either of the Mannings and it would probably be MORE effective because they can actually complete deep passes and, therefore, keep the safeties out of the box.

 

 

LOL. You could put a pocket passer like Brady into Atlanta's offense, and he would get sacked 7 times out of 10 if he tried to throw anything deep. Atlanta's offensive line is glorified by zone blocking. Vick scrambles in the backfield on seemingly every passing play because he's being chased around by D Linemen all the time.

[BadgerBacker]

In leagues like my local that reward running QB's, Vick is valuable. A few years ago, when the hype was at its max, he wasn't a draft value, but he slid to a point where I was happy to draft him this year.

 

His injury risk isn't for the faint of heart, though!

 

Vick's value aside, I'm also looking forward to seeing how defenses adjust to the spread option over the course of the season.

[fruhoff]

More the fact that he's moderately successful as a non-prototypical QB AND massively overhyped for it.

 

Like Swerski said, we'll see what happens if/when they face a D that can take away the running game - generally the way to defend an option is to play disciplined assignment football; if people start freelancing, it's game over. But if that doesn't happen and they stay reasonably healthy, they will do VERY well.

 

As it stands, right now the Falcs seem to be going by the old saw "3 things can happen when you throw the ball and 2 of them are bad." I'm curious to check out how well a spread option works in the NFL next week.

 

 

The offense and Vick...don't have to "put the world" on their shoulders (pressure) as long as the DEF holds up this year (cross fingers). Last year, the DEF had trouble stopping everything. The option has a good chance of continuing to work even if everyone on the opposing DEF maintains discipline...why?....because its inevitable that the safeties will be drawn up because of the run...

 

...leaving Lelie, Jenkins, White & Crumpler...open...even enough for Vick to lay it up for them...we'll see...its very interesting to see them shred the last two DEF that had a week to prepare for it...guess it wasn't enough...

 

Rhonde Barber said they couldn't find a way to stop it, but at least found a way to slow it down enough to keep them from scoring TDs later in the game...of course Michael Koenen couldn't kick FGs..

 

Falcon sign MORTEN ANDERSON to 1-YR deal today...halleluhah!!!

[fruhoff]

I never said that it did. What I said was that a QB who can throw the ball accurately gives a team a better chance to win a SB than an inaccurate scramber who can't read defenses.

 

Strong defense and the ability to control the clock are the keys to winning. Right now, it looks like the Falcons are doing both brilliantly.

 

 

Having a DEF that can actually stop teams this year definitely helps the offense play more conservatively and reduces the pressure...unlike last year...ATL is very similar to CHI, but their offense is much more athletic...

 

CHI-D is clearly better, but ATL definitely has a top 5 D with John Abraham, Patrick Kerney, Rod Coleman, Grady Jackson, DeAngelo Hall, Lawyer Milloy, Keith Brooking, Chris Crocker, DeMorrio Williams, Kevin Mathis...and one more lineback I can't seem to remember...oh, add Ed Hartwell when he comes back in two weeks...

 

they (both the D and Vick for the most part) are definitely flying under the radar

[LooGie]

 

Huh? NFL defenses have been stopping Michael "I-Can't-Hit-the-Broad-Side-of-a-Barn" Vick for years now. Until he can consistently complete passes to his wideouts, that's not going to change.

 

 

I really think you're way off here. Vick is pretty much unstoppable as the runner. You need a severely talented linebacker to basically spend the whole game "spying" him. That's pretty much the only way to stop him. And that's iffy.

 

If the critics get to him, and Mora, and they decide to "prove" he's a pocket passer, THEN defenses stop him. Actually, he stops himself, because he's anything but a pocket passer. He's dynamic and can bring a defense to their knees simply based on the run. The problem is, when a wideout is wide open out there, he has alot of trouble getting the ball to them. But if he was able to complete those passes, all that happnes is the run game will kick up a notch. That's his bread and butter, and you saying that defenses have been stopping him for years is way way WAYYYY off target.

 

 

 

Strong defense and the ability to control the clock are the keys to winning. Right now, it looks like the Falcons are doing both brilliantly.

 

 

um...ability to control the clock...BY RUNNING? I don't think Vick will ever get to the super bowl, much less ever win one. But not because scramblers can't do it. Just because he doesn't have the ability to be an all around QB. And whoever you meet in the NFC Championship game, and the superbowl after that, is going to be top notch and will basically be able to exploit that.

 

Give Vick an accurate arm, say as accurate as Delhomme, or Brad Johnson (nothing special, but accurate ENOUGH) and they're superbowl bound. Period.

[LooGie]

 

Having a DEF that can actually stop teams this year definitely helps the offense play more conservatively and reduces the pressure...unlike last year...ATL is very similar to CHI, but their offense is much more athletic...

 

CHI-D is clearly better, but ATL definitely has a top 5 D with John Abraham, Patrick Kerney, Rod Coleman, Grady Jackson, DeAngelo Hall, Lawyer Milloy, Keith Brooking, Chris Crocker, DeMorrio Williams, Kevin Mathis...and one more lineback I can't seem to remember...oh, add Ed Hartwell when he comes back in two weeks...

they (both the D and Vick for the most part) are definitely flying under the radar

 

for the record, I think ATL is WAY over rated this year. Every year, they start off strong (last year they beat PHI opening weekend) with a strong looking defense, just to finish mediocre. Every year they break down and slow down.They made the NFC Championship game only to be CREAMED by PHI. They looked like pop warner out there. They got lucky just to get there imo.

 

Last year, Vick showed his true colors when he was in chicago, cold and basically looked like a lost kitten. They never seemed to regain themselves after that.

 

This year, the schedule is MUCH MUCH tougher, and ATL just doesn't have the ability to go smash mouth hard nose football week in and week out. I'm predicting 9-7. Winning season. Yay for them.

 

edit: I'm only talking football wise, not fantasy wise. Fantasy wise, I'll be grabbing Vick in every league I can for a few weeks, before dumping him by week 5 or 6. He'll slow down, take a breather, maybe get fired up by week 12 or 13 and finish somewhat strong.

Edited September 20, 2006 by LooGie

[Bill Swerski]

CHI-D is clearly better, but ATL definitely has a top 5 D with John Abraham, Patrick Kerney, Rod Coleman, Grady Jackson, DeAngelo Hall, Lawyer Milloy, Keith Brooking, Chris Crocker, DeMorrio Williams, Kevin Mathis...and one more lineback I can't seem to remember...oh, add Ed Hartwell when he comes back in two weeks...

 

 

ATL's defense is better than CHI's. Their secondary has played better historically (especially in the playoffs), their ends have played better over the long-haul, and their interior D-linemen are better. And that's saying quite a bit, because the Bears have a VERY good defense.

 

I really think you're way off here. Vick is pretty much unstoppable as the runner. You need a severely talented linebacker to basically spend the whole game "spying" him. That's pretty much the only way to stop him. And that's iffy.

 

...That's his bread and butter, and you saying that defenses have been stopping him for years is way way WAYYYY off target.

 

No, it's not. Teams like Tampa Bay and Philly have done a great job of containing Vick. Vick makes his offense one-dimensional and that's not a positive, despite the fact that it looks cool on ESPN. Sure, they can beat up on bad defenses, but they struggle to get into the endzone against better teams.

 

The problem is, when a wideout is wide open out there, he has alot of trouble getting the ball to them. But if he was able to complete those passes, all that happnes is the run game will kick up a notch.

 

But he's not able to complete those passes, so it's a moot point. Until he can, halfway decent opposing defenses will continue to stop him.

 

um...ability to control the clock...BY RUNNING? I don't think Vick will ever get to the super bowl, much less ever win one. But not because scramblers can't do it. Just because he doesn't have the ability to be an all around QB. And whoever you meet in the NFC Championship game, and the superbowl after that, is going to be top notch and will basically be able to exploit that.

 

Agreed. Plenty of "scramblers" have been to the Super Bowl (Young, Elway, McNair, McNabb), but those guys were also proficient passers.

 

Give Vick an accurate arm, say as accurate as Delhomme, or Brad Johnson (nothing special, but accurate ENOUGH) and they're superbowl bound. Period.

 

But since he doesn't have one, it's a moot point.

Edited September 20, 2006 by Bill Swerski

[alexgaddis]

Teams like Tampa Bay and Philly have done a great job of containing Vick. Vick makes his offense one-dimensional and that's not a positive, despite the fact that it looks cool on ESPN. Sure, they can beat up on bad defenses, but they struggle to get into the endzone against better teams.

 

But the point is that in the past Atlanta has tried to make him beat these defenses with his arm, from the pocket...now they appear to be letting him do it with his legs...but we shall see waht happens over the long haul...

[Bill Swerski]

But the point is that in the past Atlanta has tried to make him beat these defenses with his arm, from the pocket...now they appear to be letting him do it with his legs...but we shall see waht happens over the long haul...

 

 

That's the key point. Atlanta's RBs aren't going to amass 200+ yds in every game down the stretch. If they could, though, it wouldn't matter matter if it were Vick, Schaub, or freaking Chris Chandler behind center.

[kerwin8]

No, it's not. Teams like Tampa Bay and Philly have done a great job of containing Vick. Vick makes his offense one-dimensional and that's not a positive, despite the fact that it looks cool on ESPN. Sure, they can beat up on bad defenses, but they struggle to get into the endzone against better teams.

 

 

So, your example here is that Tampa Bay has a good defense that shuts Vick down, and then you say that he beats up on bad defenses, like the two he's played in the first two weeks of the season?

 

Yeah, the Falcons should have a tough season because their schedule is pretty stacked, but these first two weeks were supposed to be a significant chunk of their difficult schedule and those were both completely one-sided games.

 

Both history and myself agree with you that the Falcons have above-average struggles in scoring against better teams, but that's what makes it a 'better' team. Everybody struggles scoring against better teams. I think the Falcons offense is going to show everyone that they've come a long way this year from where they were last year. Vick in particular, but also Michael Jenkins and the offensive line.

 

I also disagree with you when you call the Falcons running game 'one-dimensional'. If the dimension that you're talking about is rushing in general, then sure. But it's not. The Falcons offense is not the same type of one-dimensional that last year's Steelers were, or that last year's Cardinals were. Vick adds such a unique element of speed, surprise, and trickery to the offense that it's not really fair to say that defending a Warrick Dunn carry is the same problem as defending against a Vick carry.

[kerwin8]

That's the key point. Atlanta's RBs aren't going to amass 200+ yds in every game down the stretch. If they could, though, it wouldn't matter matter if it were Vick, Schaub, or freaking Chris Chandler behind center.

 

 

Yes it would. There's no way the Falcons RBs get 200+ yards in ANY game if there aren't some defenders that are too busy watching Vick to tackle the RB.

[Bill Swerski]

Yes it would. There's no way the Falcons RBs get 200+ yards in ANY game if there aren't some defenders that are too busy watching Vick to tackle the RB.

 

 

That's no different than defenders playing Cover 2 Deep because Peyton Manning or Carson Palmer is behind center. With Vick, the strong safety can come up into the box to play both Vick AND Dunn. In fact, I'd argue that keeping the safeties back deep would help the running game MORE than having a scrambling QB.

[Bill Swerski]

So, your example here is that Tampa Bay has a good defense that shuts Vick down, and then you say that he beats up on bad defenses, like the two he's played in the first two weeks of the season?

 

Tampa Bay's defense sucks THIS YEAR. But they sure didn't back from '02-'05 when they made Vick their girl dog twice a year.

 

I also disagree with you when you call the Falcons running game 'one-dimensional'. If the dimension that you're talking about is rushing in general, then sure. But it's not. The Falcons offense is not the same type of one-dimensional that last year's Steelers were, or that last year's Cardinals were. Vick adds such a unique element of speed, surprise, and trickery to the offense that it's not really fair to say that defending a Warrick Dunn carry is the same problem as defending against a Vick carry.

 

The Steelers' offense was NOT one-dimensional last season. Roethlisberger is a very competent passer, as he very clearly demonstrated in their first three playoff games.

 

Defending Vick/Dunn is A LOT easier than defending Manning/Barber/Burress or Palmer/R. Johnson/C. Johnson. You can stack the box with 8 defenders and contain both Vick and Dunn. You can't stack the box and defend both the run and a proficient passing game.

Edited September 20, 2006 by Bill Swerski

[Bengal Mania]

If he wants to stay "under the radar", I think he needs some sort of alias, so people don't know who he is....

 

Akin to the "West Coast Offense", maybe they could call the Falcons version the "South of the Border Offense"?

[kerwin8]

That's no different than defenders playing Cover 2 Deep because Peyton Manning or Carson Palmer is behind center. With Vick, the strong safety can come up into the box to play both Vick AND Dunn. In fact, I'd argue that keeping the safeties back deep would help the running game MORE than having a scrambling QB.

 

 

You would argue? Then why don't you? ... kidding.

 

It makes sense to say that it would be easier to run with the safeties back, but it does not make sense to say that one safety can cover both Vick and Dunn. Suppose they go running in opposite directions? That safety is going to have to commit one way or other WAY before he figures out who actually has the ball, or there's no chance he'll catch either one of them.

 

I do see your argument for helping out the run, and it's obvious that if Vick were better at actually getting the ball to the receivers who go deep, both safeties would be forced to stay deep anyways. But... moot point until he shows he can do it consistently.

 

Still, if Manning or Palmer stepped into the offense (assuming they miraculously had time for the receivers to get deep), the safeties dont back off until the QB starts completing long passes. If that's happening, the RBs aren't getting 200+ yards either way. That only happens if the QB under center doesn't pass a lot. If he doesn't pass a lot, everyone's in the box... Catch-22?

[Bill Swerski]

You would argue? Then why don't you? ... kidding.

 

It makes sense to say that it would be easier to run with the safeties back, but it does not make sense to say that one safety can cover both Vick and Dunn.

 

Well, of course not, but you're forgetting about the three linebackers (or four, if in a 3-4). Two could bring Dunn down and two could bring Vick down.

 

Still, if Manning or Palmer stepped into the offense (assuming they miraculously had time for the receivers to get deep), the safeties dont back off until the QB starts completing long passes. If that's happening, the RBs aren't getting 200+ yards either way. That only happens if the QB under center doesn't pass a lot. If he doesn't pass a lot, everyone's in the box... Catch-22?

 

It doesn't take that many long completions to get the safeties to drop back. Edge and Rudi Johnson have put up 150+ rushing yds several times in the Colts and Bengals pass-heavy offenses.

 

FWIW, the Falcons offense has ranked 14th, 18th, and 13th in total yards in the three full seasons that Vick has played. Given those rather mediocre numbers, the proficient 1-2 punch of Dunn/Duckett over those years, and how weak the NFC was in '04 and '05, I'm still wondering why people claim that opposing defenses haven't been stopping Vick. The numbers suggest that they're doing a halfway decent job.

[kerwin8]

Well, of course not, but you're forgetting about the three linebackers (or four, if in a 3-4). Two could bring Dunn down and two could bring Vick down.

 

 

So now you're talking about using 5 guys to watch Vick and Dunn? Then you've got 3 linemen, so 3 DBs are left to cover Roddy White, Michael Jenkins, Ashley Lelie, and Alge Crumpler?

 

I hope other teams try that all season long.

 

FWIW, the Falcons offense has ranked 14th, 18th, and 13th in total yards in the three full seasons that Vick has played. Given those rather mediocre numbers, the proficient 1-2 punch of Dunn/Duckett over those years, and how weak the NFC was in '04 and '05, I'm still wondering why people claim that opposing defenses haven't been stopping Vick. The numbers suggest that they're doing a halfway decent job.

 

 

Stopping Vick is not even on the same wavelength as stopping Atlanta's offense. Assuming we're talking about stopping Vick from RUSHING, let's look at his stats from those same 3 seasons:

 

2002: 777 yards, 6.9 average

2004: 902 yards, 7.5 average

2005: 597 yards, 5.9 average

 

It doesn't look to me like those numbers are very mediocre. What you're talking about when you throw out the ranking of the Falcons' offense is a TEAM number, not a Michael Vick number. Last year Atlanta finished 12th in yards/game and Pittsburgh finished 16th. My point is that total yards is not, by any means, a measure of team success. Vick is nowhere near 100% at fault for the team's ranking on offense or overall offensive production.

 

You also mentioned how Tampa has "made Vick their girl dog" from '02-'05. Last year's numbers prove the opposite. Atlanta lost both games, but both times it was to late field goals in close games. Sounds like a defensive issue to me. In fact, in the two games that the Falcons played against TB, Vick put up 467 yards passing with 4 TDs and 0 interceptions along with 80 yards rushing. What about '04? 262 yards, 1 TD, 3 ints with 154 yards rushing. The Bucs got owned in one of the games, and shut out the Falcons in the other, where Vick threw 2 of his 3 picks.

 

So, for the last 2 years, the Bucs have "made vick their girl dog" one out of four times. Once out of five straight games if you count this year's game. He wasn't stopped in either of last year's games, and I KNOW you aren't going to argue that the Bucs #1 ranked defense sucked last year, too.

Edited September 20, 2006 by kerwin8

[Bill Swerski]

So now you're talking about using 5 guys to watch Vick and Dunn? Then you've got 3 linemen, so 3 DBs are left to cover Roddy White, Michael Jenkins, Ashley Lelie, and Alge Crumpler?

 

No, I'm not. I'm saying that it's a hell of a lot easier to stop a proficient rushing attack (even when the QB is involved) than a solid balanced attack. If the opposite were true, NFL offensive coordinators would run the option and guys like Jake Plummer and Randall Cunningham would be HOFers.

 

Stopping Vick is not even on the same wavelength as stopping Atlanta's offense. Assuming we're talking about stopping Vick from RUSHING, let's look at his stats from those same 3 seasons:

 

2002: 777 yards, 6.9 average

2004: 902 yards, 7.5 average

2005: 597 yards, 5.9 average

 

It doesn't look to me like those numbers are very mediocre. What you're talking about when you throw out the ranking of the Falcons' offense is a TEAM number, not a Michael Vick number. Last year Atlanta finished 12th in yards/game and Pittsburgh finished 16th. My point is that total yards is not, by any means, a measure of team success. Vick is nowhere near 100% at fault for the team's ranking on offense or overall offensive production.

 

Vick gets the ball on every snap, he's the one that's supposed to complete passes, and he's typically second on the team in rushing yds each season. Whose fault is it then? I didn't even bring up the fact that Vick has only averaged 20.6 TDs (rushing and passing) in his three full seasons. That's worse than Jake Plummer's last three years in Denver (average of 22.0).

 

Vick may be elusive and may put up some great Sports Center highlights, but he's far from the unstoppable offensive force that some homers tout him as.

 

You also mentioned how Tampa has "made Vick their girl dog" from '02-'05. Last year's numbers prove the opposite. Atlanta lost both games, but both times it was to late field goals in close games. Sounds like a defensive issue to me. In fact, in the two games that the Falcons played against TB, Vick put up 467 yards passing with 4 TDs and 0 interceptions along with 80 yards rushing. What about '04? 262 yards, 1 TD, 3 ints with 154 yards rushing. The Bucs got owned in one of the games, and shut out the Falcons in the other, where Vick threw 2 of his 3 picks.

 

Perhaps that was just my impression after watching him getting clobbered time after time by Derek Brooks and John Lynhc. My bad.

Edited September 20, 2006 by Bill Swerski

[LooGie]

ATL's defense is better than CHI's. Their secondary has played better historically (especially in the playoffs), their ends have played better over the long-haul, and their interior D-linemen are better. And that's saying quite a bit, because the Bears have a VERY good defense.

 

ATL's defense is better than CHI's? are you being serious? In week 2, you're ready to say ATL defense is better than CHI? are you sure about that? You're not gonna put any stock in CAR having no Steve Smith and losing some O-linemen in week 1, and TB unable to do ANYTHING against them, except, you know..give Galloway 161 yard game? Not to mention Caddy having back spasms? You ready to put all your eggs in ATLs defense huh?

No, it's not. Teams like Tampa Bay and Philly have done a great job of containing Vick. Vick makes his offense one-dimensional and that's not a positive, despite the fact that it looks cool on ESPN. Sure, they can beat up on bad defenses, but they struggle to get into the endzone against better teams.

 

Yes I agree they struggle against better teams, but not because they're containing Vick. They contain him by not blitzing and letting him sit back and make mistakes. Vick has not been contained when he's in rushing form. So we may be arguing different things here. I'm talking about Vick being contained in the rushing game. As a QB, he's containable. As a RB that throws occainsionally..forget about it. It looks like this year, Mora and Vick have decided to go with what works, and let Vick be Vick. Bad news for the rest of the NFL.

But he's not able to complete those passes, so it's a moot point. Until he can, halfway decent opposing defenses will continue to stop him.

 

Stop him in the passing game, sure. But not in the run game. TB is (ahem. was) the best at containing Vick, because they would rush him to his right. He's left handed and very deadly when he bootlegs out to the left. So they would push him right. Not blitz him, just scare him that way, but there was always someone to throw to, so he'd try to throw, and screw himself. If they rushed in, he was GONE. He is NOT containable on the run. But again, we might have our conversations crossed here.

Agreed. Plenty of "scramblers" have been to the Super Bowl (Young, Elway, McNair, McNabb), but those guys were also proficient passers.

But since he doesn't have one, [an accurate arm] it's a moot point.

 

Actually it's not. My point was he's not containable UNLESS they allow him to sit back and make mistakes. He's got such an ego, he truly believes he can make those throws, so he'll take the chance. That's how they "contain" him. I don't really call that containing him. I call that beating him. To contain him, is to take away what he does best AND impose your will on him. That cannot be done to Vick, because your will is to sack him and bring him down for a loss. Not gonna happen.

 

Allowing him to sit back and try to make a play and then capitilize on his mistake is not containing him. It's beating him.

Edited September 20, 2006 by LooGie