Jumbie Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 I'm the commish of our league and could use some advice on how to handle a situation. We have a blind bidding procedure to FA pickups. The team that bids the highest amount gets the FA. All bids must be in by 10 pm on Wednesdays. A couple of teams have started using an "alternative" bidding approach. For example, they will email me "5.01 for Jennings, but if I don't get him, 3.50 for Frye." A couple of owners are upset by this. We have a 14 player roster limit. They argue that teams should have to place separate bids for the players and take the risk that they get both. Then, they should have to make the decision of which two players from their rosters to drop. By bidding in the alternative, they argue, the bidder isn't risking two roster spots, but only one. I think this is a fairly stupid issue altogether, but I told them that I would post it here to get some feedback. And, no, I didn't think to cover this ahead of time in our league rules. Oh, one other thing you should know, we are all lawyers...so no matter how hard I try to anticipate every situation in our rules, they always will figure out some way to get around them. Neat. Thanks for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolf Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 In an auction format, there's no such thing as an "If/Then" bid. One bid, one amount, for one player at a time. If the owner wants multiple players, he should submit multiple bids. No rules? No problem. Use precedent...how many times can you go to Christie's and place a bid as follows: "$100K on the Persian rug but if I don't get it, $50K on the Etruscan vase..." It's a slam dunk case, counselor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 It's a slam dunk case, counselor. I beg to differ. We have used conditional blind bids since the inception of TOCOL 4 years ago, and it works just fine. Because the bids are blind, owners have no idea whether they'll get a player before the players are awarded or not, and it would seem inherently unfair to not allow an owner to bid on another player who is part of the FA pool and available to all owners as such when they don't know the status of their #1 priority bid. Easy to do, easy to use, and I as the commish don't see the problem with a conditional bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 We use blind bids with conditional bidding in the HAG leagues as well. I don't see the problem ... bottom line, the owner that bids the most for a player regardless of whether or not it was on a conditional bid or not wins him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Many leagues actually do use conditional bidding.. it is very common. For example, if a team wants/needs a defense, they would submit say a bid on Def A, Def B, and Def C, and rank them with the same player to be dropped in order to ensure that they acquire a defense. When it comes to positional, they may have 4 players they like and submit 4 bids on these players, with a listing of players to be dropped in order for any succesful bid, so the bid may be like $4 on player A, B C and D and if I win any, in order drop Dud E, F, G H. It is common sense strategy to the blind bid waiver format. If you wih to expressly forbid, or allow it, I would reccomend for next season put in clearly defined rules of how the bids must be made, etc. IMO, they are doing nothing wrong but being smart about how they try to acquire free agents within a blind bid system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolf Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 (edited) I beg to differ. We have used conditional blind bids since the inception of TOCOL 4 years ago, and it works just fine. Because the bids are blind, owners have no idea whether they'll get a player before the players are awarded or not, and it would seem inherently unfair to not allow an owner to bid on another player who is part of the FA pool and available to all owners as such when they don't know the staus of their #1 priority bid. Easy to do, easy to use, and I as the commish don't see the problem with a conditional bid. Agreed but... Owners should set a priority on whom they want. Go after the first player you want and place a bid. If you do not get him, what is the mechanism to pick up another player? Is there an open free agent period, such as first come first served? We have an open bidding process in my league. All bids are placed on the message board in live format so we are removed from the conundrum you mention that can happen in a blind bid process. The next day, we open up to first come first served to allow owners to add free agents. In a closed bid, an owner cannot see the bids so there has to be another way to acquire a player when wanted/needed. Does your league, and this question goes to Jumbie as well, have an open free agent process after the closed bidding process? If so, I see no reason to accept a conditional bid. The alternative player(s) still may not be available, having been won in the closed bid process, but I believe the one bid for one player removes any issues that may arise. Suppose two owners do not win the bid on their first choice and happen to bid the same on the second player? Can of worms. Personally am not a fan of an "If/Then" bid. That's why we opened up the bidding from closed to live. EDIT...Well seeing the responses above, it looks as if conditional bidding is fairly common so I will just shut up and allow those in the know to address this... Edited September 29, 2006 by The Wolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulOttCarruth Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Why not just have owners submit their bid like this: Bid# 1 -- 5.01 for Jennings drop Player X Bid #2 -- 3.50 for Frye drop Player X As commish, you just go through their list in order. If they won Bid #1, that obviously would negate Bid #2 because Player X is no longer on the team. Seems simple enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Suppose two owners do not win the bid on their first choice and happen to bid the same on the second player? You would award the players same as you would if the player was their first choice and they tied. You follow whatever procedure you have in place to break ties in bids, whether that is a criteria based on record or having those two owners submit new bids on the player with high bidder getting the player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Agreed but... Owners should set a priority on whom they want. Go after the first player you want and place a bid. If you do not get him, what is the mechanism to pick up another player? Is there an open free agent period, such as first come first served? We have an open bidding process in my league. All bids are placed on the message board in live format so we are removed from the conundrum you mention that can happen in a blind bid process. The next day, we open up to first come first served to allow owners to add free agents. In a closed bid, an owner cannot see the bids so there has to be another way to acquire a player when wanted/needed. Does your league, and this question goes to Jumbie as well, have an open free agent process after the closed bidding process? If so, I see no reason to accept a conditional bid. The alternative player(s) still may not be available, having been won in the closed bid process, but I believe the one bid for one player removes any issues that may arise. Suppose two owners do not win the bid on their first choice and happen to bid the same on the second player? Can of worms. Personally am not a fan of an "If/Then" bid. That's why we opened up the bidding from closed to live. EDIT...Well seeing the responses above, it looks as if conditional bidding is fairly common so I will just shut up and allow those in the know to address this... :confused: Blind bid works very well, thanks. We used blind bidding from 8:00 AM Tuesday until 8:00 PM Wednesday and then use First Come, First Serve after blind bid FAs are awarded, from 8:00 AM Thursday until the start of the first game that week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 In response to The Wolf, but off topic, I've been involved in both blind bid & open bid FA, and of the two, I much prefer blind bid. I've seen open bid get downright ugly when one owner bids up another in an effort to block that owner from getting a certain player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 You would award the players same as you would if the player was their first choice and they tied. You follow whatever procedure you have in place to break ties in bids, whether that is a criteria based on record or having those two owners submit new bids on the player with high bidder getting the player. Step 1: Process all the "1st option" waivers, awarding players to the highest bidders Step 2: Process the conditional waivers for those owners that were not awarded their 1st option players, awarding players to the highest bidders Step 3: Process all the conditional waivers for those owners that were not awarded their 1st or 2nd option players, awarding players to the highest bidders Continue until no conditional bids are left In GenLost we can submit multiple blind bids with conditional bids. So I might submit a bid for defense A, a conditional bid for defense B if I don't get A, a conditional bid for defense C if I don't get A or B. Then I might also submit a bid for player X, a conditional bid on player Y if I don't get X and a conditional bid on player Z if I don't get X or Y: 1) $10 for defense A, $8 for defense B if A is taken, $2 for defense C if defenses A & B are taken - drop player M 2) $20 for player X, $20 for player Y if X is taken, $3 for player Z if players X & Y are taken - drop player N Additionally we can specify a different player to be dropped conditionally: 1) $10 for defense A - drop player M If A is taken, $8 for defense B - drop player M If B is taken, $2 for defense C - drop player N 2) $20 for player X - drop player E if X is taken, $20 for player Y - drop player F if Y is taken, $3 for player Z - drop player G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vet Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 I accidentally e-mailed my "blind" waiver bids to a competitor instead of the commissioner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 I accidentally e-mailed my "blind" waiver bids to a competitor instead of the commissioner. Ouch. If you're on mfl.com, you can set up your blind bidding so that no one can see them, even the commish, who has an option to lock himself out. As a commish, I love the system & I know no one can get hold of anyone else's bids, accidentally or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbie Posted September 29, 2006 Author Share Posted September 29, 2006 In response to a previous post, yes, we do open up FAs on a first come, first gets basis after the bidding deadline. I appreciate all of the responses. What I take from this is that it is not unheard of to use conditional bidding. The owners who were complaining about it (funny, the same owners who complain about everything) made it sound as though I was nuts for allowing it. We will address it at next year's rules meeting. Until then, conditional bidding stays. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolf Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Ouch. If you're on mfl.com, you can set up your blind bidding so that no one can see them, even the commish, who has an option to lock himself out. As a commish, I love the system & I know no one can get hold of anyone else's bids, accidentally or not. Seems like you can so so much more with MFL...I can't wait to switch over from SportsLine next season. Got your post on open bidding get ugly. We've had owners bidding each other up but it has never become an ugly problem. Hope it never does... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcmast Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Fanball has conditional blind bids. I tried to outsmart it by putting in the following: Claim A 1) drop Rod Smith, pickup M. Drew $1 2) drop Rod Smith, pickup M. Drew $10 3) drop Rod Smith, pickup M. Drew $22 It didn't work as Drew went to another team for a blind bid of $21. I also tried Claim A 1) drop Lundy, Add PHI $1 Claim B 1) drop Lundy, Add PHI $5 thinking if A beats all competitors, then B would be executed, but I actually bid against myself and paid the $5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Fanball has conditional blind bids. I tried to outsmart it by putting in the following: Claim A 1) drop Rod Smith, pickup M. Drew $1 2) drop Rod Smith, pickup M. Drew $10 3) drop Rod Smith, pickup M. Drew $22 It didn't work as Drew went to another team for a blind bid of $21. Conditional bids are for if one player gets outbid, then you can bid for another player instead. You can't use that to try to get a player at the lowest price possible as you tried here. In your case, you were trying to do a conditional upbid on the same player, in which the first official bid is accepted ($1), and another league member outbid you with his $21 bid. So the system worked correctly and as Drew was already taken at $21, so the conditionals would not process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcmast Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Conditional bids are for if one player gets outbid, then you can bid for another player instead. You can't use that to try to get a player at the lowest price possible as you tried here. In your case, you were trying to do a conditional upbid on the same player, in which the first official bid is accepted ($1), and another league member outbid you with his $21 bid. So the system worked correctly and as Drew was already taken at $21, so the conditionals would not process. It did work correctly, I was just trying to see if they had thought it through that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.