Big Ben

[Steelers4Life]

you don't get it. his throwing 20 passes or less per game significantly helps him... plus how many of those were to swp in the flat. you are very confused if you think this is the type of qb that could lead a pass first offense. your assumptions are wrong (i watch a little of every game). he is an average qb- who has been efficient because of bettis and parker. last year many things went in his favor. this year things aren't going his way and he looks terrible.... i'll say that i don't think that he is nearly as bad as his last two (3 if you include sb) game.

 

you are correct about qb's who benefit from a strong running game, but he is not in the same class as manning, palmer, hasselbeck.....

 

200 yds, 1 rushing, 1 passing. that is not qb stud material imo.... how many TO's you think against that d?

 

edit: actually, it's hard to think of such an average qb that has benefited as much as ben from the running game and d.

 

 

If you believe that, we'll just disagree. Talent wise, he's far above average. Very big arm, very accurate arm, very good mobility for a guy his size. Good decision making too, although that's suffered along with his accuracy early this season.

 

Look at it this way - in 2005, the RBs and TEs combined for fewer than 90 catches, yet Ben's completion percentage was almost 63% and he was in the top 2 in the NFL in YPA. He throws downfield, and he throws very, very well. Just because he's not asked to do it as often doesn't make him a lesser passer at all.

 

Did you watch the way he lit up the Bengals, Colts, and Broncos last year in the playoffs to GET the lead in the first place?

 

Did you know his points per game in EVERY league I'm in was within 1 or 2 points of both Matt Hasselbeck and Eli Manning last year?

 

I'll go as far as to say that if Ben took Palmer's spot in Cincinnati and ran that offense with those weapons, his numbers would be very, very similar. His arm IS that good.

 

Did I call him a "stud" QB as he is right now? Of course not. Top 10 does not make him a stud for fantasy purposes.

 

I don't know for sure how he'll fare this weekend. He didn't commit any turnovers last year in SD, but if he plays like he has the past 2 games, the Steelers will struggle to move the ball at all.

[Steelers4Life]

Uhhm... looking through this thread, it appears no one agrees with you but other stealer fans, I don't even know if Menyoudo would call Ben a good fantasy QB.

 

 

You still haven't explained to me how a guy who isn't a good fantasy QB has a top 10 points per game in 2005?

 

As I said in my previous post, his PPG was right with Hasselbeck and Eli in ALL of my leagues in 2005.

[Savage Beatings]

Look, it is awesome to be a big fan of your favorite hometown team... I'm a huge Vikings homer myself... but yoyu can't allow that to cloud your judgement when it comes to Fantasy Football.

 

I understand that you guys really like Ben Rothlisberger as the Steelers QB. He's served you guys very well and brought youth and energy to that team. But he is NOT a good FF QB. That reality shouldn't lessen your homer fantacism one bit, but it should guide you when drafting your FF teams. If it doesn't, then you will be at a disadvantage.

[Steelers4Life]

Look, it is awesome to be a big fan of your favorite hometown team... I'm a huge Vikings homer myself... but yoyu can't allow that to cloud your judgement when it comes to Fantasy Football.

 

I understand that you guys really like Ben Rothlisberger as the Steelers QB. He's served you guys very well and brought youth and energy to that team. But he is NOT a good FF QB. That reality shouldn't lessen your homer fantacism one bit, but it should guide you when drafting your FF teams. If it doesn't, then you will be at a disadvantage.

 

 

OK, then let's hear YOUR explanation of how a guy who isn't a good FF QB can have a top 10 PPG among QBs, just a hair below "studs" like Hasselbeck and Eli.

 

"Ben isn't a good fantasy QB" has been beaten into peoples' heads so often that they overlook the numbers that say otherwise.

[msaint]

Feel bad? Not at all. I enjoy talking football, and my firewall at work has now blocked footballguys.com. So, I figured I'd check this site out during the days. Saw a misinformed post about Ben, so I responded.

 

 

yeah, wasn't all that serious when i posted that, but welcome nonetheless. 'bout time menudo had a black-and-gold-clad playmate.

[H8tank]

He was on average the 15th QB taken this year: http://football.myfantasyleague.com/2006/d...NONKEEPER&TIME=

 

He was the 24th Ranked QB on the Huddle rankings: http://www.thehuddle.com/x6/pre/rank-qb.php

 

I don't see how you could say he was a good fantasy QB ever, no one thinks that.

[MojoMan]

What's goin' on with Pittsburgh that their fans are so filled with manlove over their players?

[Savage Beatings]

OK, then let's hear YOUR explanation of how a guy who isn't a good FF QB can have a top 10 PPG among QBs, just a hair below "studs" like Hasselbeck and Eli.

 

"Ben isn't a good fantasy QB" has been beaten into peoples' heads so often that they overlook the numbers that say otherwise.

 

 

 

Alrighty...

 

I just looked up Ben Rothlisberger's point totals for 2004 and 2005 in my main local league. In 2004, he ranked #20 among all QB's. In 2005, he ranked #19 among all QB's.

 

This is a very standard 12 team redraft league. Performance + TD scoring.

 

PaTD - Passing TD 4 points

Plus 2 points for a PaTD of 51 to 100 Yds

PaYd - Passing Yards 20+ PaYds = 1 point for every 20 PaYds

 

I think you'll find that this is typical of most leagues out there. I don't know what kind of system you are using to score for QB's that would rank him twice as high as my leagues do, but I guess it's possible that such a system exists.

[Steelers4Life]

He was on average the 15th QB taken this year: http://football.myfantasyleague.com/2006/d...NONKEEPER&TIME=

 

He was the 24th Ranked QB on the Huddle rankings: http://www.thehuddle.com/x6/pre/rank-qb.php

 

I don't see how you could say he was a good fantasy QB ever, no one thinks that.

 

 

Are you going to keep avoiding the fact that his points per game was in the top 10 in 2005?

 

I couldn't care less where he was drafted or where this grand site has him ranked.

 

LOL, I love it.

 

I give you numbers and stats and reasons for my opinions.

 

In response, I get, "Well, he sucks and everyone thinks it."

 

Niiiiiiiiiice.

[Steelers4Life]

Alrighty...

 

I just looked up Ben Rothlisberger's point totals for 2004 and 2005 in my main local league. In 2004, he ranked #20 among all QB's. In 2005, he ranked #19 among all QB's.

 

This is a very standard 12 team redraft league. Performance + TD scoring.

 

PaTD - Passing TD 4 points

Plus 2 points for a PaTD of 51 to 100 Yds

PaYd - Passing Yards 20+ PaYds = 1 point for every 20 PaYds

 

I think you'll find that this is typical of most leagues out there. I don't know what kind of system you are using to score for QB's that would rank him twice as high as my leagues do, but I guess it's possible that such a system exists.

 

 

I think you misunderstood slightly - I know where he ranked overall, and I was referring to his fantasy points scored per game.

 

2004, he was a rookie and didn't play the first few weeks.

 

2005, he missed 4 games. I know where he ranked in total, but I urge you to now compare his points per game over the 12 games he played in to that of Hasselbeck and Eli Manning, both of whom played 16.

Edited October 5, 2006 by Steelers4Life

[junebugz]

 

edit: actually, it's hard to think of such an average qb that has benefited as much as ben from the running game and d.

 

 

how about this guy

[Steelers4Life]

Let me put it a different way, for strictly fantasy purposes.

 

Scoring system gives 1 pt per 25 yards, 4 pts per TD, 1 pt per 10 yards rushing, and small penalties for fumbles and INTs.

 

Overall, Ben finished 19th.

 

Based on 2005 final numbers:

 

Hasselbeck - 14.22 PPG (16 games)

Eli - 13.33 PPG (16 games)

Roethlisberger - 13.43 PPG (12 games)

[junebugz]

how about this guy

 

or this guy

[Bier Meister]

If you believe that, we'll just disagree. Talent wise, he's far above average. Very big arm, very accurate arm, very good mobility for a guy his size. Good decision making too, although that's suffered along with his accuracy early this season.

 

Look at it this way - in 2005, the RBs and TEs combined for fewer than 90 catches, yet Ben's completion percentage was almost 63% and he was in the top 2 in the NFL in YPA. He throws downfield, and he throws very, very well. Just because he's not asked to do it as often doesn't make him a lesser passer at all.

 

46 rec by rb's, 43 by te's, 139 to wr's= 39% of their rec went to rb or te.

 

 

Did you watch the way he lit up the Bengals, Colts, and Broncos last year in the playoffs to GET the lead in the first place?

Year Opp Result | CMP ATT PYD PTD INT | RSH YD TD

---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------

2004 nyj W,20-17 | 17 30 181 1 2 | 4 30 0

2004 nwe L,27-41 | 14 24 226 2 3 | 5 45 0

2005 cin W,31-17 | 14 19 208 3 0 | 4 3 0

2005 ind W,21-18 | 14 24 197 2 1 | 5 -3 0

2005 den W,34-17 | 21 29 275 2 0 | 3 12 1

*2005 sea W,21-10 | 9 21 123 0 2 | 7 25 1

 

i don't know about "lighting it up." he was again effiecient.... and i was at the pit/den game. the db's gave hugh cushions... most qb's could have hit those wr's... oh yeah.. that d gave great field position.

 

Did you know his points per game in EVERY league I'm in was within 1 or 2 points of both Matt Hasselbeck and Eli Manning last year?

 

i am in 9 leagues... i start checking is qb rank.... went through 4 leagues before i stopped.... 17, 17, 19, 18.... so not sure what type of leagues you're in, but you might be rwarding some attributes that most leagues don't

 

I'll go as far as to say that if Ben took Palmer's spot in Cincinnati and ran that offense with those weapons, his numbers would be very, very similar. His arm IS that good.

 

i don't think he would. by the same token, if you replaced ben with the ten qb's around him in rank (5 better and five worse) in addition to all of the others ranked high....pit stillg ets a championship.

 

Did I call him a "stud" QB as he is right now? Of course not. Top 10 does not make him a stud for fantasy purposes.

 

you are stating that he is a great nfl qb and a great ff qb. you cleraly have been implying stud throughout this thread.

 

I don't know for sure how he'll fare this weekend. He didn't commit any turnovers last year in SD, but if he plays like he has the past 2 games, the Steelers will struggle to move the ball at all.

 

[major-tom]

Several things need to happen for Roethlisberger to become a viable starting fantasy quarterback.

 

1) He needs to completely regain his health after a serious accident in the offseason and surgery he had after the season started. Even though he worked hard and was able to recover and rehab enough to get back in starting lineup he couldn't possibly be all the way back.

 

2)As mentioned by others above the Steelers running game is still the focus of their offense and game plan. Until opposing defenses are able to shut down that ball control running game(like the Jaguars did) on a regular basis, big Ben's fantasy numbers will not be consistant enough to warrant starting.

 

3)Also mentioned is the Steelers dominant defense that allows a more ball contol offense. The one thing that hasn't seemed to change in Cower's tenure is a strong defense, even with all the losses of pro bowl defenders and great defensive coaches.

 

4)Last but not least, his receivers need to perform on a high level like Ward and Miller did last year. Ward has a lingering hamstring problem and has already been quoted saying "My hamstring's not going to be 100 percent this year." Miller should only get better in his 2nd year but after that Wilson, Washington and rookie Holmes may not be enough. The Skins may have over paid for Randle El but he's still better than any of the others besides Ward.

 

 

After watching Roth at Miami(OH) in college I certainly thought he had the potential to be a good quarterback on the pro level. In the right system I think he could still be a good starting fantasy quarterback. Right now though in the current Steelers system with Cower at the helm I'm not sure that will happen.

[Bier Meister]

how about this guy

 

 

 

i think ben is better than mcmahon

[junebugz]

i think ben is better than mcmahon

 

shhhhhhhhhh .... you're ruining my chance to get Menudo all riled up

[Steelers4Life]

Bier - not quite as handy with the quoting thing! But thanks for the response - it's better than the standard "but everyone knows Ben sucks" response.

 

I'd wager to say that's a smaller percentage of throws to RBs and TE than most teams have. By far in a lot of cases.

 

Against the Bengals last year in the playoffs, he was fantastic. He passed all over the Colts in the first half of the playoff game and watched the running game take over more in the 2nd half once they got the lead, and he ripped apart the Broncos secondary en route to a HUGE halftime lead.

 

AGAIN, I never said he finished in the top 10 overall. He played in only 12 games, and his points per game in those 12 games was among the top 10 of all QBs on a POINTS PER GAME basis.

 

We can disagree on what he'd do in a different offense, that's fine. But the same thing can be said about a lot of Super Bowl winning teams.... replace the QB, and they'd still win. Doesn't change the fact that Ben followed up an excellent regular season with 3 very good playoff games before his dud of a Super Bowl.

 

And yes, I said he's a great young real-life QB. I consider him and Palmer the two premier young QBs in the game today. And I've called him nothing more than a top 10 fantasy QB based on what he did last year, but at no point did I call him more than that. I compared his points scored per game with a few guys people consider studs, and his scoring was right with them.

[Bill Swerski]

Several things need to happen for Roethlisberger to become a viable starting fantasy quarterback.

 

1) He needs to completely regain his health after a serious accident in the offseason and surgery he had after the season started. Even though he worked hard and was able to recover and rehab enough to get back in starting lineup he couldn't possibly be all the way back.

 

2)As mentioned by others above the Steelers running game is still the focus of their offense and game plan. Until opposing defenses are able to shut down that ball control running game(like the Jaguars did) on a regular basis, big Ben's fantasy numbers will not be consistant enough to warrant starting.

 

3)Also mentioned is the Steelers dominant defense that allows a more ball contol offense. The one thing that hasn't seemed to change in Cower's tenure is a strong defense, even with all the losses of pro bowl defenders and great defensive coaches.

 

4)Last but not least, his receivers need to perform on a high level like Ward and Miller did last year. Ward has a lingering hamstring problem and has already been quoted saying "My hamstring's not going to be 100 percent this year." Miller should only get better in his 2nd year but after that Wilson, Washington and rookie Holmes may not be enough. The Skins may have over paid for Randle El but he's still better than any of the others besides Ward.

After watching Roth at Miami(OH) in college I certainly thought he had the potential to be a good quarterback on the pro level. In the right system I think he could still be a good starting fantasy quarterback. Right now though in the current Steelers system with Cower at the helm I'm not sure that will happen.

 

Well-said.

[Steelers4Life]

Several things need to happen for Roethlisberger to become a viable starting fantasy quarterback.

 

1) He needs to completely regain his health after a serious accident in the offseason and surgery he had after the season started. Even though he worked hard and was able to recover and rehab enough to get back in starting lineup he couldn't possibly be all the way back.

 

Very true. Hopefully the bye week did him some good.

 

2)As mentioned by others above the Steelers running game is still the focus of their offense and game plan. Until opposing defenses are able to shut down that ball control running game(like the Jaguars did) on a regular basis, big Ben's fantasy numbers will not be consistant enough to warrant starting.

 

The numbers don't back that up at all. Even with the running game being the focus of the offense, Ben produced like a top 10 QB in 2005 in the 12 games in played in last year. The 4 games he missed dropped his overall ranking down to the 17-19 range.

 

3)Also mentioned is the Steelers dominant defense that allows a more ball contol offense. The one thing that hasn't seemed to change in Cower's tenure is a strong defense, even with all the losses of pro bowl defenders and great defensive coaches.

 

Again, despite a top defense, he performed like a top 10 game in his 12 starts in 2005.

 

4)Last but not least, his receivers need to perform on a high level like Ward and Miller did last year. Ward has a lingering hamstring problem and has already been quoted saying "My hamstring's not going to be 100 percent this year." Miller should only get better in his 2nd year but after that Wilson, Washington and rookie Holmes may not be enough. The Skins may have over paid for Randle El but he's still better than any of the others besides Ward.

 

VERY true, at least for now. Holmes and Wilson need to step up this year.

 

After watching Roth at Miami(OH) in college I certainly thought he had the potential to be a good quarterback on the pro level. In the right system I think he could still be a good starting fantasy quarterback. Right now though in the current Steelers system with Cower at the helm I'm not sure that will happen.

 

It already DID happen. Last year.

 

 

[Bier Meister]

you think the majority of the league passes to their rb's and te's more than 40% of the time? i don't have time to crunch 31 other teams... but i think you are wrong.... and that is high % passing as well.... most of his longer attempts seemed to come off of play action, no?

 

as far as sb teams winning with other qb's only a handfull stand out... the rest i believe had very good qb's.

 

 

keep drafting him as your #1 and let me know how it turns out for you starting him every week..... please post your weekly results.

ravens with dilfer

bears with mcmahon

redskins with rypien

 

most other winning teams needed their qb.

[Steelers4Life]

you think the majority of the league passes to their rb's and te's more than 40% of the time? i don't have time to crunch 31 other teams... but i think you are wrong.... and that is high % passing as well.... most of his longer attempts seemed to come off of play action, no?

 

as far as sb teams winning with other qb's only a handfull stand out... the rest i believe had very good qb's.

keep drafting him as your #1 and let me know how it turns out for you starting him every week..... please post your weekly results.

ravens with dilfer

bears with mcmahon

redskins with rypien

 

most other winning teams needed their qb.

 

 

There's little doubt in my mind that most teams pass more to their backs and TEs. That's just rarely been a part of the Steelers' offense since Cowher took over.

 

I don't ever draft him as my #1 because I know I can always get him later at exceptional value. If he falls to the 18-22 range, he represents one of the best values at QB in the draft.

 

I'd rather not try and debate what Super Bowl winning teams could've replaced their QBs and still won... the list is much, MUCH longer than that, but it's not anything that you can quantify with numbers or prove.

[DMD]

Placing aside his durability issue and current malaise, based on the numbers from last season he is not worthy of being more than a fanasy back-up. You have to look at the per game totals if you want to discuss Big Ben from last year:

 

 

1	TEN	(218, 2)2	@HOU	(254, 2)3	NE	(216, 2)5	@SD	(225, 1)7	@CIN	(93, 2)8	BAL	(177, 2)12	@IND	(133, 1)13	CIN	(386, 3)14	CHI	(173, 1)15	@MIN	(149, 0)16	@CLE	(226, 1)17	DET	(135, 0)

 

 

he started out very well last year thanks to playing TEN and HOU at first. After week 5, he threw two of eight games over 177 passing yards and his slide at the end of the year is more indicative of what to expect than his first four games. Other than his big game against the Bengals in week 13, his numbers were very pedstrian and marginally worth being a bye week replacement - not a top 12 starting fantasy QB.

 

In the playoffs he had games of (197,2), (208,3 against Bengals), (275,2 DEN) and (123, 0 Seattle). Needless to say those intial games in the playoffs were surprises given that he had not thrown all that much or all that well in the eight games previous other than when he faced CIN for whatever reason.

 

He's a good quarterback but hardly one considered to have much fantasy relevance. There is no consistency and little track record to support that other than when he faces the Bengals. His success in the playoffs last year came in part because teams loaded up against the PIT run.

 

In terms of production with any reliable numbers, he's about average and less than that currently.

[Furd]

Steelers homers crack me up.

[Steelers4Life]

Placing aside his durability issue and current malaise, based on the numbers from last season he is not worthy of being more than a fanasy back-up. You have to look at the per game totals if you want to discuss Big Ben from last year:

 

1	TEN	(218, 2)
2	@HOU	(254, 2)
3	NE	(216, 2)
5	@SD	(225, 1)
7	@CIN	(93, 2)
8	BAL	(177, 2)
12	@IND	(133, 1)
13	CIN	(386, 3)
14	CHI	(173, 1)
15	@MIN	(149, 0)
16	@CLE	(226, 1)
17	DET	(135, 0)

 

he started out very well last year thanks to playing TEN and HOU at first. After week 5, he threw two of eight games over 177 passing yards and his slide at the end of the year is more indicative of what to expect than his first four games. Other than his big game against the Bengals in week 13, his numbers were very pedstrian and marginally worth being a bye week replacement - not a top 12 starting fantasy QB.

 

In the playoffs he had games of (197,2), (208,3 against Bengals), (275,2 DEN) and (123, 0 Seattle). Needless to say those intial games in the playoffs were surprises given that he had not thrown all that much or all that well in the eight games previous other than when he faced CIN for whatever reason.

 

He's a good quarterback but hardly one considered to have much fantasy relevance. There is no consistency and little track record to support that other than when he faces the Bengals. His success in the playoffs last year came in part because teams loaded up against the PIT run.

 

In terms of production with any reliable numbers, he's about average and less than that currently.

 

REALLY wish I had time to respond to this one, but I don't have time today. Gotta get home...

 

But I'll say this: The way Ben played in the first 3 playoff games is VERY indicative of how he had thrown the ball a majority of the time down the stretch. That's the type of analysis you'd get from only looking at the numbers though. He was dominant in those 3 playoff games, and he picked up the slack for a struggling running game.