Posting this prematurely

[Azazello1313]

Sounds to me like the league is backpedaling to avoid a scandal.

 

 

probably so. tuck rule, anyone?

[McBoog]

Before replay this thread would not have existed.

 

So... NO! (The game should have been played in San Diego anyway )

 

To me, the MOST horrifically punitive penalty in Football is the Pass interference call. Automatic first down at the spot of the penalty? This is crap.

 

I think pass interference should be 15-yards and repeat of down. That’s right, no automatic first down. Same goes with Defensive holding, 5-yards and repeat of down. NO automatic first down.

 

Yes I understand that a 3rd and 20 would turn into a 3rd and 5.

 

I have but one question, that in my mind, validates my despise for these rules.

 

How many times have you seen a receiver drop a perfect pass, all alone or not?

 

I think it happens a few times EVERY F’N GAME! They even track “dropped passes” now. If no passes were ever dropped, fine, I could deal with it. I just really hate the assumption that the WR would have caught the ball. That has to be the assumption or the penalty would not be so punative.

Edited January 29, 2007 by McBoog

[CaptainHook]

no offense McBoog, but that would only encourage more pass interference calls. Might as well tackle the guy if you get beat . . .

[Bill Swerski]

There's a big difference, however, between the two. The PI calls had been called that way the entire season, and the Patriots DBs had been playing like that the entire season, and for season's previous.

 

You're wrong that the refs called the '03 AFC Championship Game in the same way that the regular-season games that year were called. That's just flat-out incorrect.

 

Ty Law admitted on ESPN Radio that Belichick instructed NE's DBs and LBs to "rough up" Indy's WRs and TEs in that game. And if they had to take a couple pass interference and illegal contact penalties, so be it. If they had been playing that way all season, Belichick obviously wouldn't have to tell them that.

Edited January 29, 2007 by Bill Swerski

[Bring Back Pat!!!]

You're wrong that the refs called the '03 AFC Championship Game in the same way that they called the regular-season games that year were called. That's just flat-out incorrect.

 

Ty Law admitted on ESPN Radio that Belichick instructed NE's DBs and LBs to "rough up" Indy's WRs and TEs in that game. And if they had to take a couple pass interference and illegal contact penalties, so be it. If they had been playing that way all season, Belichick obviously wouldn't have to tell them that.

 

 

 

Right, so the Rams WRs weren't roughed up in that SB?? C'mon, anyone who watched the NFl all season saw that that rule was being exploited all season. maybe the Pat's DBs went one step further because they didn't think it would be called. If it was only one game were the rule was not enforced correctly, the league would not have handed down a point of emphasis for the next season, they would have reprimanded the officials that worked that game and admitted that they called it wrong.

[Bill Swerski]

Right, so the Rams WRs weren't roughed up in that SB?? C'mon, anyone who watched the NFl all season saw that that rule was being exploited all season. maybe the Pat's DBs went one step further because they didn't think it would be called. If it was only one game were the rule was not enforced correctly, the league would not have handed down a point of emphasis for the next season, they would have reprimanded the officials that worked that game and admitted that they called it wrong.

 

 

You're confusing the postseason with the regular season. Mike Vrabel was not allowed to bear-hug tight ends during the regular season.

 

Polian's problem with the officiating was that the rules weren't being enforced in the playoffs and that put pass-heavy teams at a disadvantage. The "don't throw the flag and let them play" mentality had been going on for years and Belichick was exploiting it like mad. That's where the Point Of Emphasis came from.

[Bring Back Pat!!!]

You're confusing the postseason with the regular season. Mike Vrabel was not allowed to bear-hug tight ends during the regular season.

 

Polian's problem with the officiating was that the rules weren't being enforced in the playoffs and that put pass-heavy teams at a disadvantage. The "don't throw the flag and let them play" mentality had been going on for years and Belichick was exploiting it like mad. That's where the Point Of Emphasis came from.

 

 

Not true:

 

According to NFL statistics, the average passing yardage per team in 2003 was 200.4 yards, the lowest since 1992, when the average was 187.6 yards. That dropoff coincided with a reduction in both pass interference calls (238 to 221) and illegal contact calls (58 to 50) from the previous season. That might not in itself have led to the decision, but when coupled with the loud complaints in the two championship games, the decision was made to make it even more difficult than it has been in the past to play pass defense. . . .

 

Article from day point of emphasis was announced

 

There were also complaints from the Eagles, who felt that Carolina did the same thing in their game. And also, mike martz was a memer of the Competition Committee, the same as Tony Dungy.

[Bill Swerski]

Not true:

 

According to NFL statistics, the average passing yardage per team in 2003 was 200.4 yards, the lowest since 1992, when the average was 187.6 yards. That dropoff coincided with a reduction in both pass interference calls (238 to 221) and illegal contact calls (58 to 50) from the previous season.

 

The decline in average passing yards per game in 2003 could be due to a lot of things. Who were the elite QBs in 2003? Manning, Brady, McNabb, Favre? It seems like the elite QBs in the early/mid '90s were more numerous: Marino, Young, Montana, Favre, Aikman, Kelly, Elway. So, I'm not really surprised that the number of passing yds/game was lower in 2003. Nor am I surprised that fewer PI and IC calls were made, as there were probably fewer passing attempts. Also consider that defenses now are built more around speed than size. That favors the running game. Do you think it's just a coincidence that the single-season record for TDs was broken FIVE times in the past eight years by a RB? Do you think it's just a coincidence that TWO backs rushed for 2,000 yds within five years of each other? No wonder teams weren't throwing the ball as much in 2003. There were fewer elite QBs and offenses were doing a better job of exploiting the smaller, softer defenses.

 

There were also complaints from the Eagles, who felt that Carolina did the same thing in their game. And also, mike martz was a memer of the Competition Committee, the same as Tony Dungy.

 

 

Yep, the Panthers certainly DID rough up the Eagles receivers. And it was a PLAYOFF game.

 

Everybody who follows the NFL closely knows that refs have historically called fewer penalties in playoff games. But it got so out of hand in the '03 playoffs that the NFL tried to put a stop to it.

[Caveman_Nick]

I fear that any opinion I offered would be tainted by my intense hatred of Tom Brady and the Patriots, and the way the Steelers won Superbowl XL.

 

 

 

[Caveman_Nick]

probably so. tuck rule, anyone?

 

 

 

That's another debate fueled by history...

 

McKay, who is co-chairman of the NFL's competition committee, does want to make one point for sure. The tuck rule had been on the books for years, and those who said they were not aware of it hadn't done their homework --particularly since there was a controversial tuck rule call only a couple of weeks before that game in Foxborough, in a Monday night game involving the Rams and Kurt Warner.

 

So the refs didn't just pull it out of their rear ends during that game. Very interesting...

[Caveman_Nick]

no offense McBoog, but that would only encourage more pass interference calls. Might as well tackle the guy if you get beat . . .

 

 

The problem with the PI rule, and the reason I call it an unequivocally game changing play, is that it is the only call that an official can make that can completely change the make-up of a game either giving first and goal on the 1 from far out, or be as much as a 99 yard penalty if the QB could heave the ball that far. And it can't be challenged. Anything else, like the Gaffney TD that was a close call can at least be challenged.

 

I think that if this rule were changed there would be a lot less complaining about pass interference. Heck, if the coaches want to use their 2 challenge flags twice a game to challenge for pass interference, I would support that, in addition to challenging a call they think should not have been made. Of perhaps it should be something that, during any point in the game, the replay official can challenge the call if he sees indisputable evidence that the wrong call was made (on a called penalty only...otherwise the game would get bogged down too much)

[bigrocks]

In my mind, no playoff game was as tainted as the infamous non-fumble. And you can bring up the supposed "Tuck Rule" as much as you would like, but it won't change my opinion of that call. Funny how many games had been played prior to that without anyone ever hearing of a Tuck Rule, then suddenly when a playoff game is on the line, it rears its head in favor of the home team.

[Bring Back Pat!!!]

The decline in average passing yards per game in 2003 could be due to a lot of things. Who were the elite QBs in 2003? Manning, Brady, McNabb, Favre? It seems like the elite QBs in the early/mid '90s were more numerous: Marino, Young, Montana, Favre, Aikman, Kelly, Elway. So, I'm not really surprised that the number of passing yds/game was lower in 2003. Nor am I surprised that fewer PI and IC calls were made, as there were probably fewer passing attempts. Also consider that defenses now are built more around speed than size. That favors the running game. Do you think it's just a coincidence that the single-season record for TDs was broken FIVE times in the past eight years by a RB? Do you think it's just a coincidence that TWO backs rushed for 2,000 yds within five years of each other? No wonder teams weren't throwing the ball as much in 2003. There were fewer elite QBs and offenses were doing a better job of exploiting the smaller, softer defenses.

Yep, the Panthers certainly DID rough up the Eagles receivers. And it was a PLAYOFF game.

 

Everybody who follows the NFL closely knows that refs have historically called fewer penalties in playoff games. But it got so out of hand in the '03 playoffs that the NFL tried to put a stop to it.

 

 

So the passing average was the lowest since 1992, when the likes of Montana and marino were playing, but yet that's a reason why the passing numbers of 2003 were low; there were no great QBs? The last time the numbers were that low, there were all your great QBs playing, and the league averages were low!!

 

Also, explain to me how the passing yards in 2004 jumped up to 210.54?? A full 10 yards per game more? Did Montana, Marino, Aikman, Kelly and Elway all come back to light up the scoreboard? No, it was the first year of the point of emphasis, so it was made easier to pass for the entire regular season.

Edited January 29, 2007 by Bring Back Pat!!!

[Bill Swerski]

So the passing average was the lowest since 1992, when the likes of Montana and marino were playing, but yet that's a reason why the passing numbers of 2003 were low; there were no great QBs? The last time the numbers were that low, there were all your great QBs playing, and the league averages were low!!

 

You may be right about that. It may be the emergence of power-running games to exploit the softer Cover 2 defenses that was most responsible.

 

I don't think it's just a coincidence that the number of passing yds were low in '03 given that the league has gone back to a power running game since Shanahan used it to win two SBs in the '90s. I don't think it's a coincidence that RBs have broken the single-season TD record FIVE TIMES during the past 11 years. I don't think it's a coincidence that there have been TWO 2,000-yd rushers since 1998. Defenses have gotten smaller and quicker and opposing OCs are having more success exploiting that with the run than ever. That certainly cuts into the number of long passing attempts and the PI and IC calls that typically go with them.

 

Also, explain to me how the passing yards in 2004 jumped up to 210.54?? A full 10 yards per game more?

 

A 10 yds/game increase (4.75%) is pretty modest, especially right after the league TOLD the officials that they need to call more PI and IC penalties.

 

Nobody who follows football would say that the officiating in the '03 Conference Championship Games is representative of that of the regular season. Everybody who follows the NFL knows that the refs have historically called fewer penalties in the playoffs. That's why Belichick's LBs and DBs roughed up the Colts and Rams WRs and TEs in the playoffs. And that's why the Rams and Colts pass offenses had SIGNIFICANTLY less success against Belichick's teams in the playoffs than they did during the regular season: The games were called differently.

Edited January 29, 2007 by Bill Swerski

[McBoog]

no offense McBoog, but that would only encourage more pass interference calls. Might as well tackle the guy if you get beat . . .

 

 

Exactly! Then it becomes a gamble AND strategy at the same time. A fourty yard penalty for a ball that MIGHT have been caught is not equitable, especially when they call all the ticky tack crap they do.

 

Maybe they allow more contact and call only the most flagrant of fouls. If the interferance is more than 15 yards, maybe you award the first down. I still feel these calls effect the game's outcome way too often!

[Azazello1313]

I think pass interference should be 15-yards and repeat of down. That’s right, no automatic first down. Same goes with Defensive holding, 5-yards and repeat of down. NO automatic first down.

 

i agree with a cap of 15 yards for PI (i think it should be spot of the foul, UP TO a 15-yard/half-the-distance max). but i think i'd keep it an automatic first down.