Randy Moss

[peepinmofo]

So Randy Moss has been up and down in his career now with the last couple years being next to useless. If he wins a championship this year, and returns to the Moss of old, or anywhere near that, does that qualify him for the HoF?

 

I know this has been discussed before, but I dont think it has been discussed with the stipulation of him winning a SB.

 

If so, please look away.

[DMD]

I would guess that he would be. His production just mandates it and while he has been a character issue of sorts, he's not been associated with criminal activity nearly as much as others like Irvin. He ranks 3rd all time for rookie receiving yards (1313), had 17 TDs in a season twice including the all-time record for a rookie, already has 101 receiving touchdowns which I believe already ranks 4th all time and only nine behind #3 Marvin Harrison who is five years older than Moss. If he returns to form in NE - which is certainly not out of the question - he would be a slam dunk for the HOF I would guess. Remember what a punk that Dillon seemed to be before getting to NE? Moss could end up with a career TD mark second only to Jerry Rice.

[Bronco Billy]

I would guess that he would be. His production just mandates it and while he has been a character issue of sorts, he's not been associated with criminal activity nearly as much as others like Irvin. He ranks 3rd all time for rookie receiving yards (1313), had 17 TDs in a season twice including the all-time record for a rookie, already has 101 receiving touchdowns which I believe already ranks 4th all time and only nine behind #3 Marvin Harrison who is five years older than Moss. If he returns to form in NE - which is certainly not out of the question - he would be a slam dunk for the HOF I would guess. Remember what a punk that Dillon seemed to be before getting to NE? Moss could end up with a career TD mark second only to Jerry Rice.

 

 

Reagrdless of stats, does a player who dogs it as much as he has been documented to do, and is an active cancer to the teams he is with belong in the HoF? IMO, no. Being a team player is part of the criteria to get in.

[peepinmofo]

Reagrdless of stats, does a player who dogs it as much as he has been documented to do, and is an active cancer to the teams he is with belong in the HoF? IMO, no. Being a team player is part of the criteria to get in.

 

 

I dont know the exact criteria to get in, but I would guess that after time, that cancer becomes forgotten. When a player retires, how often do people look back and say, "man that guy was a pain in the azz". Well, if his stats were like that of Moss's, I would think after a year or 2 of retirement, they look mainly at stats.

 

I could be wrong as I am not a HoF voter.

[DMD]

I cannot imagine that 2006 can be held against Moss really or you would have to apply the same to the other 52 players on that team. Don't forget too that Moss started out the year wanting to be a team leader and playing along with the program until it was apparent that there was no program other than getting the crap beaten out of them every week. And his 2005 season started out very well in OAK until he was injured and then played most of the season with hip and leg injuries. Steve Smith was vocal about how bad the offense in CAR was last year - is he a cancer? Moss is no choir boy and he had run-ins with coaches who ended up being in their final year of coaching (Tice and Shell) because they were not good, but I think the whole "Moss is a cancer" thing is overblown. Terrell Owens? Sure and he's been with some good teams in the past. Moss' perception problem has been much more one of immaturity in his earlier years than being a jerk.

[Bronco Billy]

I cannot imagine that 2006 can be held against Moss really or you would have to apply the same to the other 52 players on that team. Don't forget too that Moss started out the year wanting to be a team leader and playing along with the program until it was apparent that there was no program other than getting the crap beaten out of them every week. And his 2005 season started out very well in OAK until he was injured and then played most of the season with hip and leg injuries. Steve Smith was vocal about how bad the offense in CAR was last year - is he a cancer? Moss is no choir boy and he had run-ins with coaches who ended up being in their final year of coaching (Tice and Shell) because they were not good, but I think the whole "Moss is a cancer" thing is overblown. Terrell Owens? Sure and he's been with some good teams in the past. Moss' perception problem has been much more one of immaturity in his earlier years than being a jerk.

 

 

OAK's disaster & giving a cop a free ride on his car hood when he refused her order to stop aside...

 

So a guy who is well documented as refusing to run routes downfield if the play wasn't called for him, and refused to engage across the middle on plays where he was going to get whacked if he did go for the ball is a HoF player? All great numbers aside, Moss is no HoFer. There's more to the game than accumulating personal stats - especially in football.

[PatsFanCT]

You can't keep a guy with Randy Moss' natural and unbelievable talent out of the HOF, that's what the HOF is for. This man should not drift away and be forgotten, regardless of his punk attitude.

[kingfish247]

So Randy Moss has been up and down in his career now with the last couple years being next to useless. If he wins a championship this year, and returns to the Moss of old, or anywhere near that, does that qualify him for the HoF?

 

I know this has been discussed before, but I dont think it has been discussed with the stipulation of him winning a SB.

 

If so, please look away.

 

Moss is a HOFer if he ended his career tomorrow imo.

 

Receiving TDs-5th

Rush/Receiving TDs-16th

5 Pro Bowls

17 or more receiving TDs twice

averages 11+ TDs per season

only WR to ever begin his career with 6 consecutive 1000+yd seasons

only WR to ever average 100+yds/1 TD per game in a season

 

Say Moss averages the output of last season's Reche Caldwell for the next 5 years. His career numbers and approximate all time rankings...

 

981 receptions... 5th all time.

14500 yds... 3rd.

121 TDs... 3rd/4th. Top 10 in total rush/receive TDs... more than Riggins and 4 less than Sweetness.

 

Another consideration is Moss has done this with 4 offensive coordinators (?...not sure but I can only think of Billick, Linehan and at least 2 while in OAK) and 5 QBs. The best of those QBs is now a backup for the Dolphins.

[Bill Swerski]

Moss' bad attitude won't keep him out of Canton. He'll probably be a first-ballot HOFer if he's a success in NE and they win a SB with him.

[Bill Swerski]

Moss is a HOFer if he ended his career tomorrow imo.

 

Receiving TDs-5th

Rush/Receiving TDs-16th

5 Pro Bowls

17 or more receiving TDs twice

averages 11+ TDs per season

only WR to ever begin his career with 6 consecutive 1000+yd seasons

only WR to ever average 100+yds/1 TD per game in a season

 

Say Moss averages the output of last season's Reche Caldwell for the next 5 years. His career numbers and approximate all time rankings...

 

981 receptions... 5th all time.

14500 yds... 3rd.

121 TDs... 3rd/4th. Top 10 in total rush/receive TDs... more than Riggins and 4 less than Sweetness.

 

Another consideration is Moss has done this with 4 offensive coordinators (?...not sure but I can only think of Billick, Linehan and at least 2 while in OAK) and 5 QBs. The best of those QBs is now a backup for the Dolphins.

 

Not sure if Randy will play for another five years, but I agree with your overall point.

[The Wolf]

Not sure if Randy will play for another five years, but I agree with your overall point.

 

 

+1

 

He is a HOFer right now.

 

Look, if being a team player and anything but a cancer on your team comprise the formula for election to the HOF, why isn't a guy like Art Monk there? Or Ray Guy?

 

The points made in here about how a player's attitude and off-field behavior come into play are valid. But these should affect the player's legacy, not their Hall worthiness. Remember that the HOF - in any sport - is about putting up numbers.

 

I am not a fan of the off-field behavior or of taking plays off, but Moss' numbers are right up there and he will be elected. If he retired today, he'd be elected.

[kcmast]

HOFer. Not only will his career stats put him at the top of a lot of catagories, but he was also on of the most dominant players (not just WRs) in the league for a couple of years. If only he played hard, who knows what kind of numbers he could have put up (especially with the Randy-Ratio)

[godtomsatan]

In an era defined by electrifying WR, he was the most electrifying.

[Goopster24]

I cannot imagine that 2006 can be held against Moss really or you would have to apply the same to the other 52 players on that team. Don't forget too that Moss started out the year wanting to be a team leader and playing along with the program until it was apparent that there was no program other than getting the crap beaten out of them every week. And his 2005 season started out very well in OAK until he was injured and then played most of the season with hip and leg injuries. Steve Smith was vocal about how bad the offense in CAR was last year - is he a cancer? Moss is no choir boy and he had run-ins with coaches who ended up being in their final year of coaching (Tice and Shell) because they were not good, but I think the whole "Moss is a cancer" thing is overblown. Terrell Owens? Sure and he's been with some good teams in the past. Moss' perception problem has been much more one of immaturity in his earlier years than being a jerk.

 

 

This is dead on and what I have been saying for quite some time. People who hate on Moss just want to find someone to hate and are following the overblown stuff the media has put out. I urge people to once find a player who has complained about Randy Moss or has come out and said that they did not like playing with him. You will not find that. That is not a "cancer" by any means. A "cancer" breaks down team chemistry and brings negative attention to the team. When has Moss ever done that? His problems are his own and no one elses.

 

If you don't think Moss is a HOF'er, you need to recheck your qualifications. There are plenty of "jerks" if you want to call Moss that, in Hall of Fames across Sports. Baseball is full of bigots, racists, whatever, wife beaters, alcoholics, etc.

Edited June 26, 2007 by Goopster24

[kingfish247]

I urge people to once find a player who has complained about Randy Moss or has come out and said that they did not like playing with him. You will not find that. That is not a "cancer" by any means. A "cancer" breaks down team chemistry and brings negative attention to the team. When has Moss ever done that? His problems are his own and no one elses.

I'm not sure if it was public but I seem to remember it was pretty common knowledge that Birk and Culpepper wanted Moss gone from Minny.

 

Things have really worked out well for them since... LINK

 

My favorite quote from Daunte: "We might even be more explosive because (the defense) won't have anybody to key on."

 

Even Tice sounded like he was toe-ing the company line but tacitly disagreed with the decision to trade him... "We have other players on our team that can bring us, collectively, a bunch of offense but nobody that can bring us the plays Randy Moss brought us."

 

To me what Daunte and Birk did was pretty low... they singled out Moss for the organization's and their own disfunction. Moss may have been an easy target but Daunte and Birk singled out a player that was nothing short of prolific yet had a down year due to a nagging injury. I believe that since Burleson broke 1000 and teamed with Robinson for 17 TDs that somehow in their minds Moss became expendable.

Edited June 26, 2007 by kingfish247

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

Reagrdless of stats, does a player who dogs it as much as he has been documented to do, and is an active cancer to the teams he is with belong in the HoF? IMO, no. Being a team player is part of the criteria to get in.

 

+1

 

Art Monk isn't in, and will probably never get in at this point. No way Moss gets in, especially since the chances of the Pats winning the SB re slim and Moss returning to form this year are slimmer.

[CaptainHook]

I would guess that he would be. His production just mandates it and while he has been a character issue of sorts, he's not been associated with criminal activity nearly as much as others like Irvin. He ranks 3rd all time for rookie receiving yards (1313), had 17 TDs in a season twice including the all-time record for a rookie, already has 101 receiving touchdowns which I believe already ranks 4th all time and only nine behind #3 Marvin Harrison who is five years older than Moss. If he returns to form in NE - which is certainly not out of the question - he would be a slam dunk for the HOF I would guess. Remember what a punk that Dillon seemed to be before getting to NE? Moss could end up with a career TD mark second only to Jerry Rice.

 

Marvin Harrison has 122 TD's to Moss' 101. He also has 1,022 receptions to Moss' 676. Marvin has 13,697 yards to Moss' 10,700. Marvin has played only 2 more seasons than Moss even though they are 5 years apart. And before you bring up the QB thing, Marvin played his first two years with the likes of Jim Harbaugh and Paul Justin at QB. And he was smart enough not to bite the hand that feeds him, and hasn't had a "falling out" like Moss and Culpepper.

 

If Moss' career ended right now, I'd say he is not a HOF'er. But he will be someday.

Edited June 27, 2007 by CaptainHook

[ROYALWITCHEESE]

Marvin Harrison has 122 TD's to Moss' 101. He also has 1,022 receptions to Moss' 676. Marvin has 13,697 yards to Moss' 10,700. Marvin has played only 2 more seasons than Moss even though they are 5 years apart. And before you bring up the QB thing, Marvin played his first two years with the likes of Jim Harbaugh and Paul Justin at QB. And he was smart enough not to bite the hand that feeds him, and hasn't had a "falling out" like Moss and Culpepper.

 

If Moss' career ended right now, I'd say he is not a HOF'er. But he will be someday.

 

 

I think it's more than fair to say that 10 years of catching balls from Peyton more than makes up for 2 years of mediocre QB play. And don't forget that Harbaugh was pretty darned good for a couple of years in Indy--a dropped hail mary from the SB if I remember correctly

[CaptainHook]

I think it's more than fair to say that 10 years of catching balls from Peyton more than makes up for 2 years of mediocre QB play. And don't forget that Harbaugh was pretty darned good for a couple of years in Indy--a dropped hail mary from the SB if I remember correctly

 

 

9 years with Peyton actually. And Harbaugh's magical year of 1995 was the year before Marvin was drafted. Harbaugh threw a whopping 13 TD's (against 11 int's) in 1996, Marvin's rookie year. Harrison caught 8 of them. Paul Justin also played quite a bit that year, with Harbaugh's injuries. In 1997, a conglomerate of Harbaugh, Justin, and Kelly Holcomb threw 16 TD's (agains 17 int's), Harrison caught 6.

 

Moss had his Pro Bowl QB, in a very pass-friendly offense, and decided to blow it all up. I guess Marvin is smarter too.

 

If I had to choose between the two WR's, I'd take Marvin and never even doubt it. Ya' know why? Cause Marvin will run routes inside the numbers, and runs perfect routes. Moss doesn't.

Edited June 27, 2007 by CaptainHook

[DMD]

9 years with Peyton actually. And Harbaugh's magical year of 1995 was the year before Marvin was drafted. Harbaugh threw a whopping 13 TD's (against 11 int's) in 1996, Marvin's rookie year. Harrison caught 8 of them. Paul Justin also played quite a bit that year, with Harbaugh's injuries. In 1997, a conglomerate of Harbaugh, Justin, and Kelly Holcomb threw 16 TD's (agains 17 int's), Harrison caught 6.

 

Moss had his Pro Bowl QB, in a very pass-friendly offense, and decided to blow it all up. I guess Marvin is smarter too.

 

If I had to choose between the two WR's, I'd take Marvin and never even doubt it. Ya' know why? Cause Marvin will run routes inside the numbers, and runs perfect routes. Moss doesn't.

 

 

To be a little more accurate, Culpepper was only a Probowl QB when he had Moss and never without him. You could certainly argue that Moss made Culpepper but that Manning made Harrison.

[CaptainHook]

Without each other, neither Manning, nor Harrison, would have the careers they have had up to now. But Randy Moss isn't in the same class as Marvin Harrison. On two very bad teams (both that went 3-13) Marvin still put up good numbers. The 1997 team had a sieve for an offensive line (62 sacks!) and bad quarterback play, yet he still had 73 receptions for 866 yards and 6 TD's. Then the next year, with a rookie QB, and despite missing 4 games with a dislocated shoulder, he still had 59 receptions for 776 yards and 7 TD's. Those are his worst two season.

 

Moss has had TWO seasons with less than 50 catches, and last year had only 553 yards. He has only had over 100 catches twice in his career. In only two more seasons, Harrison has 346 more receptions, 2997 more yards, and 21 more TD's.

 

If Moss is that good, turning Culpepper into a Pro Bowler (and we've seen Daunte without Randy ), why hasn't he done the same for his other quarterbacks? Moss hasn't even been able to put up decent numbers.

Edited June 27, 2007 by CaptainHook

[Avernus]

Without each other, neither Manning, nor Harrison, would have the careers they have had up to now. But Randy Moss isn't in the same class as Marvin Harrison. On two very bad teams (both that went 3-13) Marvin still put up good numbers. The 1997 team had a sieve for an offensive line (62 sacks!) and bad quarterback play, yet he still had 73 receptions for 866 yards and 6 TD's. Then the next year, with a rookie QB, and despite missing 4 games with a dislocated shoulder, he still had 59 receptions for 776 yards and 7 TD's. Those are his worst two season.

 

Moss has had TWO seasons with less than 50 catches, and last year had only 553 yards. He has only had over 100 catches twice in his career. In only two more seasons, Harrison has 346 more receptions, 2997 more yards, and 21 more TD's.

 

If Moss is that good, turning Culpepper into a Pro Bowler (and we've seen Daunte without Randy ), why hasn't he done the same for his other quarterbacks? Moss hasn't even been able to put up decent numbers.

 

 

is this the Raiders team you speak of?...

 

I'd wait until you see him play a few games for the Pat's..

[Goopster24]

Without each other, neither Manning, nor Harrison, would have the careers they have had up to now. But Randy Moss isn't in the same class as Marvin Harrison. On two very bad teams (both that went 3-13) Marvin still put up good numbers. The 1997 team had a sieve for an offensive line (62 sacks!) and bad quarterback play, yet he still had 73 receptions for 866 yards and 6 TD's. Then the next year, with a rookie QB, and despite missing 4 games with a dislocated shoulder, he still had 59 receptions for 776 yards and 7 TD's. Those are his worst two season.

 

Moss has had TWO seasons with less than 50 catches, and last year had only 553 yards. He has only had over 100 catches twice in his career. In only two more seasons, Harrison has 346 more receptions, 2997 more yards, and 21 more TD's.

 

If Moss is that good, turning Culpepper into a Pro Bowler (and we've seen Daunte without Randy ), why hasn't he done the same for his other quarterbacks? Moss hasn't even been able to put up decent numbers.

 

 

Because he has been hurt somewhat at the same time. I think it's hard to compare these two wideouts "worst" seasons and the teams they were on.

[CaptainHook]

Because he has been hurt somewhat at the same time. I think it's hard to compare these two wideouts "worst" seasons and the teams they were on.

 

why? Both teams were bad, had offensive line problems, rotating quarterbacks. Moss was in his ninth year when he had to go through it, Marvin was in his second. Yet Moss came out and gave a pitiful effort, and had the worst year of his career. Harrison's next season, he missed the last four games (and most of a fifth, he got hurt in the first quarter IIRC) after seperating his shoulder, and he still outperformed two of Moss's worst seasons. . .

Edited June 27, 2007 by CaptainHook

[CaptainHook]

is this the Raiders team you speak of?...

 

I'd wait until you see him play a few games for the Pat's..

 

He'll always be a one trick pony. A guy who operates outside the numbers that you can send deep for TD's. A guy who has relied on his physical tools, but hasn't even tapped the potential he has if he'd become a decent route runner.

He'll put up good numbers this year, there is not a doubt in my mind. But I would rather have Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison.

Edited June 27, 2007 by CaptainHook