CaptainHook Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 (edited) So we agree. EDIT - the post that bundled your undies was intended as an obviously facetious poke at Hook's moronic playoff assertion. The assertion that play-off success is a criteria for voters? Hate to tell ya, but it is. Henry Ellard has 13,777 yards. Third all-time. He has 65 TD's. 814 receptions. But he's not in the HOF. Guess who has 64 LESS catches. 1873 LESS yards. And also has 65 TD's? Michael Irvin. Who IS in the HOF. Ya think postseason success has anything to do with that? :usnure: Edited June 28, 2007 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazysight Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 The Colts had some bad teams, but they never really had bad offenses (except perhaps for 97, though the offense would have still benefited by the talents of Marshall Faulk). Even in 97, that offense wasn't as bad as the Raiders offense was last year. There is no way that I believe Harrison or even a Jerry Rice would have thrived in that pathetically inept offense. Harrison has benefited from having significantly greater talent around him throughout his career on the whole. But I do agree that Harrison is a better pro than Moss. That is why he will be a first ballot HOFer without question. Without each other, neither Manning, nor Harrison, would have the careers they have had up to now. But Randy Moss isn't in the same class as Marvin Harrison. On two very bad teams (both that went 3-13) Marvin still put up good numbers. The 1997 team had a sieve for an offensive line (62 sacks!) and bad quarterback play, yet he still had 73 receptions for 866 yards and 6 TD's. Then the next year, with a rookie QB, and despite missing 4 games with a dislocated shoulder, he still had 59 receptions for 776 yards and 7 TD's. Those are his worst two season. Moss has had TWO seasons with less than 50 catches, and last year had only 553 yards. He has only had over 100 catches twice in his career. In only two more seasons, Harrison has 346 more receptions, 2997 more yards, and 21 more TD's. If Moss is that good, turning Culpepper into a Pro Bowler (and we've seen Daunte without Randy ), why hasn't he done the same for his other quarterbacks? Moss hasn't even been able to put up decent numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROYALWITCHEESE Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 what would you do if you weighed 185 lbs? At least he'll make the catch first. . . I realize that. But you seemed to indicate it was a sign of toughness, that Marv would do things Randy won't like "going over the middle." But how tough does it make him if he immediately drops to the ground in a heap once he makes the catch? Keyshawn Johnson, now there's a WR that made a living of tough catches over the middle. I don't like him, but neither Randy or Marvin gives up their body like Meshawn... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 The assertion that play-off success is a criteria for voters? Hate to tell ya, but it is. Michael Irvin. Who IS in the HOF. Ya think postseason success has anything to do with that? :usnure: Just because some (if not all) of the voters are stupid on this point doesn't mean YOU have to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROYALWITCHEESE Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Harrison put up 11,185 yards in his first 9 season. Moss? 10700. Harrison put up 845 catches. Moss? 676. Harrison had 98 TD's. Moss? 101. You can have all the "by age 29" crap. In his first 9 years, Harrison blows Moss out of the water by 485 yards and 169 catches. Whoa. 500 more yards and 3 less TDs on 200 more catches? Now that's really blowing Moss away!! For Moss to get those numbers he'd only have to have 200 2.5 yards receptions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 I realize that. But you seemed to indicate it was a sign of toughness, that Marv would do things Randy won't like "going over the middle." But how tough does it make him if he immediately drops to the ground in a heap once he makes the catch? Keyshawn Johnson, now there's a WR that made a living of tough catches over the middle. I don't like him, but neither Randy or Marvin gives up their body like Meshawn... The fact that at 185 lbs, and barely 6 feet tall, and that he still goes over the middle DOES prove he can make the tough yards. I've seem him get whopped by a linebacker plenty of times. Self preservation doesn't make the fact he will go over the middle when other bigger WR's won't any less impressive in my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 (edited) Whoa. 500 more yards and 3 less TDs on 200 more catches? Now that's really blowing Moss away!! For Moss to get those numbers he'd only have to have 200 2.5 yards receptions... yeah, i'd say 169 more catches is blowing someone out of the water. . . maybe Moss would have a few more catches if he made some shorter receptions over the middle? And if you wanna talk about a pass happy offense, how many TD passes does Randy have inside the 5 yard line on fades? They are his specialty. Just as tons of chain moving receptions are Harrison's. . . Edited June 28, 2007 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 I realize that. But you seemed to indicate it was a sign of toughness, that Marv would do things Randy won't like "going over the middle." But how tough does it make him if he immediately drops to the ground in a heap once he makes the catch? Keyshawn Johnson, now there's a WR that made a living of tough catches over the middle. I'll take a small receiver that shies away from contact after catching a pass over the middle and whose career is second only to Jerry Rice over an overrated loudmouth who is tough over the middle but can't separate from defensive backs and pisses off his teammates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 What do Keyshawn and Randy have in common? They are tall! Which makes Marvin's stats more impressive. His numbers have dwarfed them both, and he has less physical talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROYALWITCHEESE Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 3 AFC Championship appearances. 1 AFC Championship. 1 Super Bowl Championship. Nada for Moss. I believe the Vikes went to 2 NFC championship games. Lost to The Falcons and the Giants. Nice try though. It's always funny to me how chips become the measuring stick AFTER someone gets one. Before last season the Colts were perennial chokers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROYALWITCHEESE Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 I don't consider those Saints or Cowboys secondaries to be anything near what the Colts have faced in the playoffs over the past 8 years. Randy would've done jack squat against the Pats, Steelers, and Ravens playoff defenses. Outside of Aeneas Williams, I don't see any elite CBs on those squads either (Harris and McKenzie in GB were good, but not much better than Deshea Townsend or Samari Rolle). On the other hand, Marvin has had to line up against, Champ Bailey, Ty Law, Chris McAllister, Sam Madison, Asante Samuel, etc. Seriously, look at Marvin's numbers against the Broncos since they acquired Champ. Peyton doesn't even bother throwing the ball his way. I agree that what Marvin and Randy have or haven't done in the playoffs doesn't mean much. My point is that the level of defensive talent (especially the corners) that the two have faced isn't even close to equal. The same NE secondary that Moss and Collins humiliated in 05? 09/08/05 @NE 5 130 26.0 73 1 11/24/02 @New England 8 92 11.5 19 0 Champ Bailey you say? 11/13/05 DEN 6 87 14.5 29 1 12/24/05 @DEN 5 72 14.4 24 0 Madison? 12/21/02 Miami 7 110 15.7 60 0 Maybe Peyton doesn't look his way because he's not getting open?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROYALWITCHEESE Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 yeah, i'd say 169 more catches is blowing someone out of the water. . . maybe Moss would have a few more catches if he made some shorter receptions over the middle? And if you wanna talk about a pass happy offense, how many TD passes does Randy have inside the 5 yard line on fades? They are his specialty. Just as tons of chain moving receptions are Harrison's. . . LOL Maybe Marv would have more ypc if he could go deep? Don't condemn the man for doing what he is better at than ANYONE. EVER. Did Larry Bird stop shooting 3's because people said he couldn't do much else? Hell no. He kept jacking them up. And making them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 (edited) The same NE secondary that Moss and Collins humiliated in 05? 09/08/05 @NE 5 130 26.0 73 1 11/24/02 @New England 8 92 11.5 19 0 LOL, the '05 Pats secondary sucked. The '02 Pats gave up a ton of huge passing plays because they had no pass rush. But the '03, '04, and '06 Pats defenses were pretty good, no? Champ Bailey you say? 11/13/05 DEN 6 87 14.5 29 1 Moss scored the TD on Derrant Williams, not Champ. 12/24/05 @DEN 5 72 14.4 24 0 Um, is that supposed to be a stud performance or something? Randy couldn't even get his offense into the endzone. Madison? 12/21/02 Miami 7 110 15.7 60 0 That's nice, but Marvin had 11 receptions for 144 yds and a TD against the Dolphins earlier that year. Maybe Peyton doesn't look his way because he's not getting open?? The correct answer is that Reggie Wayne's matchups against Derrant Williams and Dominique Foxworth are so much better that he doesn't bother to look at Marvin's side of the field... 10 rec, 229 yds, 1 TD 10 rec, 138 yds, 3 TDs I was at that last IND/DEN playoff game. Peyton didn't even look at Marvin until the 3rd quarter. Edited June 28, 2007 by Bill Swerski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 I believe the Vikes went to 2 NFC championship games. Lost to The Falcons and the Giants. Nice try though. It's always funny to me how chips become the measuring stick AFTER someone gets one. Before last season the Colts were perennial chokers... Super Bowl champs baby. Super Bowl champs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 LOL Maybe Marv would have more ypc if he could go deep? Don't condemn the man for doing what he is better at than ANYONE. EVER. Did you just imply that Harrison can't go deep? You see, when you can do other things, like make plays over the middle where the big boys play, it drives your YPC down. Make sense? moran . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 (edited) Oh, I just watched NFL Network's Top 10 Single Season Performances. Marvin's 143-catch season was there. Moss wasn't in the top 10. Edited June 28, 2007 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Ok. So Marvin has the best of Moss in a comparison of their cumulative "three worst years". Let's check out their best 3 years. Guess what? Harrison dominates again. 367 catches to Moss' 294. 4909 yards to Moss' 4416. 38 TD's to Moss' 39. And that's giving the benefit of the doubt to Moss, cause I used his 2000 season where he technically had 3 less catches over his 1999 season but only had 11 TD's compared to 15. Otherwise Marvin would lead that category too. . . Doesn't seem to matter how you stack it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMD Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 What do Keyshawn and Randy have in common? They are tall! Which makes Marvin's stats more impressive. His numbers have dwarfed them both, but then again only he has Peyton Manning I scan through this thread and see stuff about baseball and someone calling up Henry Ellard. Man... the preseason cannot start soon enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfish247 Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 (edited) The fact that Moss was dogging it contribute to any of that? I think so. Marvin was on a team that gave up 67 sacks in 1997. Still produced. Weird, eh? Not so weird when his QBs still managed a 60+% completion rate, and when compared to the '06 OAK QB's 1:3 TD/INT ratio, IND's QBs still managed a respectable 1:1. IND's QB's also had a very nice 6.5+ ypa. To put that in perspective, in '06 that would've been good for 8th in the league... LINK... as you can see at the bottom of the list is OAK's QBs at 4.36 ypa. Marshall Faulk was pretty good too. Props though to Harrison for outgaining Sean Dawkins by 42 yards who played only 14 games that year. Edited June 29, 2007 by kingfish247 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 (edited) Not so weird when his QBs still managed a 60+% completion rate, and when compared to the '06 OAK QB's 1:3 TD/INT ratio, IND's QBs still managed a respectable 1:1. IND's QB's also had a very nice 6.5+ ypa. To put that in perspective, in '06 that would've been good for 8th in the league... LINK... as you can see at the bottom of the list is OAK's QBs at 4.36 ypa. Marshall Faulk was pretty good too. Props though to Harrison for outgaining Sean Dawkins by 42 yards who played only 14 games that year. But he still produced. Moss didn't. Part of the reason was he was not giving a good effort. Maybe his quarterback's performance wouldn't have suffered as much? By the way, you do know that Sean Dawkins was the Colts #1 WR in '96 and '97 right? Marvin just outproduced him both years. Edited June 29, 2007 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 He's all ready a HOFer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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