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Deion defends Vick


Bill Swerski
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Deion actually brings up some interesting points.

 

This world of dog-fighting is one that MOST of us here doesn't even know exists. You have to look at this from a societal aspect. Not everyone is from the world YOU live in. You cannot expect people that haven't grown up like YOU to have the same moral convictions that YOU have. In other words, how can YOU expect a certain segment of society to have the same moral code that YOU have, when they have no idea that world exists?

 

Um, they DO have an idea that world exists. And they do know its moral code. It's called the law.

 

I understand the point you're making but, geez. If dog fighting is illegal EVERYWHERE in this country and, despite whatever retarded "rules" that the dogfighting subculture formulates, they know that what they're doing is completely unacceptable in our society.

Edited by Bill Swerski
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Deion actually brings up some interesting points.

 

This world of dog-fighting is one that MOST of us here doesn't even know exists. You have to look at this from a societal aspect. Not everyone is from the world YOU live in. You cannot expect people that haven't grown up like YOU to have the same moral convictions that YOU have. In other words, how can YOU expect a certain segment of society to have the same moral code that YOU have, when they have no idea that world exists?

 

I'm not saying that what Vick et al did was ok. Clearly it is not. But in the world he grew up in, with a different set of rules and a different survival instinct, things are different. Way different than what the rest of us deem to be ok. And I'm not going to sit here and judge a man whose shoes I haven't walked in.

 

According to MY code, what happens in that world is despicable. And hopefully this is an instance that gets people to wake up to what's going on out there and deal with the REAL underlying issues that drive people to perform those despicable acts. Because all this window dressing anger accomplishes nothing until you get to the root of the problem.

 

 

My BS detector just broke...there's only so much it can take.

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OK, so we just had 2 ex-cons kill and rape a mother, 17 year old and 11 year old daughter in Connecticut. But let's not judge them because maybe they grew up in a different environment. I get your point, makes perfect sense to me.

 

 

Yep! What he said. :D

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And I know there are some pencils in this place that aren't overly sharp, but in no way do I believe that the majority of people here are so naive as to not be aware of the fact that there's plenty of dog fighting out there. It's no big secret these days, which is partly why this story has exploded in the first place. Dog fighting is a reprehensible act that touches a nerve in just about any civil-minded human being and the issue itself was just waiting for the right incident to trigger it.

The whole "victim of society" crap can only go so far. Michael Vick has been pampered for years now and earns more money in one year than any of us will likely see in a lifetime. If he was involved in this than no excuse is good enough.

Edited by Crazysight
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No, apparently you don't.

 

So, enlighten me. I gave you an example that directly related to your comments. A 26 year old from a well to do family with no violent history repeatedly rapes and kills a mother, 17 year old and 11 year old daughters. You won't judge him because you haven't walked in his shoes. Explain this to me. I don't see it.

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So, enlighten me. I gave you an example that directly related to your comments. A 26 year old from a well to do family with no violent history repeatedly rapes and kills a mother, 17 year old and 11 year old daughters. You won't judge him because you haven't walked in his shoes. Explain this to me. I don't see it.

 

At what point did I say what he did was OK, or right, or acceptable?

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At what point did I say what he did was OK, or right, or acceptable?

 

You didn't. However, if I read this:

 

But in the world he grew up in, with a different set of rules and a different survival instinct, things are different. Way different than what the rest of us deem to be ok. And I'm not going to sit here and judge a man whose shoes I haven't walked in.

 

It tells me that you won't judge someone unless you've walked in their shoes. That implies, to me, that because Vick grew up in a different environment, you understand how he could have done what he did. To me, that's nothing more than a poor excuse. Vick is a grown man, I could give two sh*ts how he grew up. He broke the law, he knew it, and there should be NO excuses. How do you respond to the example I posted about the crime in Connecticut? Do you feel the same way? You won't judge him because you never walked in his shoes?

 

Not busting your balls CD, really just trying to find out how you justify the way you feel because I don't understand it.

Edited by Hugh 0ne
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Deion actually brings up some interesting points.

 

This world of dog-fighting is one that MOST of us here doesn't even know exists. You have to look at this from a societal aspect. Not everyone is from the world YOU live in. You cannot expect people that haven't grown up like YOU to have the same moral convictions that YOU have. In other words, how can YOU expect a certain segment of society to have the same moral code that YOU have, when they have no idea that world exists?

 

I'm not saying that what Vick et al did was ok. Clearly it is not. But in the world he grew up in, with a different set of rules and a different survival instinct, things are different. Way different than what the rest of us deem to be ok. And I'm not going to sit here and judge a man whose shoes I haven't walked in.

 

According to MY code, what happens in that world is despicable. And hopefully this is an instance that gets people to wake up to what's going on out there and deal with the REAL underlying issues that drive people to perform those despicable acts. Because all this window dressing anger accomplishes nothing until you get to the root of the problem.

I have a liberal bias in most things but this is just squishy BS, Chief. This is the same kind of excuse all those idiot so-called experts use when they release killers from prison, magically "cured" or the kind of twaddle rolled out in defense of some violent psycho on trial for murder - oooooh, he didn't know any better, the poor dear. Bah. By this logic, anything is acceptable as long as someone "grew up in a different world". It might be acceptable in some stinking craphole in the third world, it flat out isn't acceptable here or in any civilized society and I don't care if Vick grew up in a mansion or a cardboard box.

Edited by Ursa Majoris
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Deion is an idiot. Always has been, always will be.

oh cmon next thing you'll tell us water is wet. I guess you think he's an apologist too?? Cmon!!

 

 

I actually read this far before wisely and finally stopping:

 

"The potential impact could be devastating.

 

He could lose millions worth of endorsements"

 

 

What a shock. Like E Smith, his concern is the millions his fellow home boy will lose. Well hey, can't betray the brotherhood. 'Bout that Ray Lewis? What a swell fella.

 

:D

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Be back for a longer retort. I have to go get a haircut. At a salon.

 

And for those of you trying to pin me on "it's ok because he's a victim of society" crap, forget it. You are all missing the point entirely.

 

With all due respect, I think that's your fault for not making it any clearer.

 

I just hope you don't use Grunge's "salon". :D

 

Looking forward to being enlightened upon your return. :D

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Be back for a longer retort. I have to go get a haircut. At a salon.

 

And for those of you trying to pin me on "it's ok because he's a victim of society" crap, forget it. You are all missing the point entirely.

I believe the point you are making is that Vick and his ilk may have a different set of mores to the regular Joe due to upbringing, environment, etc. That is perfectly true. What most of the people here are taking issue with is your statement that due to this difference we cannot (or you cannot) judge him. I disagree - as someone mentioned earlier, we have a set of laws and whether we agree with them or not, they MUST be obeyed or the whole thing collapses. Thus we not only have the right to judge, we must judge.

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I believe the point you are making is that Vick and his ilk may have a different set of mores to the regular Joe due to upbringing, environment, etc. That is perfectly true.

BullSega!. Vick's what 28 yrs old? He's been handed everything since he stepped on the field at VT. He chooses the environment he's in now and I know alot of people who have risen above their upbringing. I ain't buyin' it.

You make choices in life and take responsibility for them. Upbringing my ass.

Edited by HowboutthemCowboys
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Deion should stick to flashy dressing, or whatever it is that he does well now that he is retired from pro football.

 

I am willing to wait for a jury to figure out whether Vick is guilty or not, but in the meantime talk about how we shouldn't try Vick because he's not a dog-fighting "kingpin" and prosecuting him won't end dog-fighting in this country is ridiculous. We won't end murder by throwing the book at some guy who plugs his wife because he's tired of putting up with her, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't lock him up and toss the key.

 

And I am all for putting more emphasis on busting guys who commit crimes against people versus dogs. I find the amount of protesting being directed at an alleged dog-killer versus the lack of protests you see at most murder trials a bit discouraging. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't bust the dog-killers too.

 

Don't newspapers bother to edit the crap they put in their editorials?

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I believe the point you are making is that Vick and his ilk may have a different set of mores to the regular Joe due to upbringing, environment, etc. That is perfectly true. What most of the people here are taking issue with is your statement that due to this difference we cannot (or you cannot) judge him. I disagree - as someone mentioned earlier, we have a set of laws and whether we agree with them or not, they MUST be obeyed or the whole thing collapses. Thus we not only have the right to judge, we must judge.

 

This probably sums it up the best.

 

To clarify:

 

I'm not going to judge him (or anyone else for that matter) because I don't know the why, or where, or how people are brought up in this world. Can I judge his actions? Certainly. But I'm not going to judge him or anyone else based on their upbringing. Because I don't know his upbringing. Just like I don't know a murderers upbringing, or rapist, or drug dealer. But will I judge their actions: absolutely.

 

Our moral fabric is created by who we are, and how we were brought up, and things that have happened as we get older. And everyone's moral compass is different.

Edited by Chief Dick
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Aside from a Bronco Billy's RB predictions, that was the dumbest thing I've ever read here at the Huddle.

 

What a flocking moran.

 

Very true but he sure could run. :D

:D Hugh wins Huddle's best fisherman.

 

Do you even know what Hugh is referring to?

 

No. He wasn't here for it, but, he likes to fit in. :D

 

Menudo ... you signed up about four or five months before Irish. Do you even know what Hugh was referring to?

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Deion's original argument, to me, seems to be that in Vick's 'world' a dog is not a dog in the sense that it is to most pet owners but rather just a possesion of some sort to be treated however one likes (be it as an electrocution toy, a toy to be slammed against the ground until it dies, drowned, strung up to a wall and used as a dart board, etc. etc). I have trouble accepting this point of view.

 

There are plenty of people who have grown up in horrible environments, yet never made the wrong decisions that others like Vick and his colleagues have made in their lives. Such people have struggled through life, yet still have been able to make an honest living without ever having the luxury of fame nor fortune the way Vick has.

 

Bob Marley is probably a good example to compare to Vick. Compared to Marley, the 'world' that Michael Vick grew up in was like a country club. The ruffians whom Vick no doubt was familiar with growing up were nothing compared to the people Marley would have had to have come in contact with while literally growing up on the streets of Jamaica during a period of impoverishment and unrest the likes of which our country has never even seen.

 

Now for some reason I just can't picture a person like Marley being involved in such a barbaric operation. He came from a very similar background as Vick...had nothing (and in Marley's case had absolutely nothing) and then rose to fame and fortune. Was exposed to plenty of violence...was shot once in the arm and once in the chest during an assasination attempt the day before a concert (though that didn't stop him from going up on stage and playing that following evening). Hell he had his share of 'water bottles' too. But he took a very different path than the one Vick has chosen, and was obviously a different person.

 

Or if you want to compare him to another professional athlete who grew up in a bad environment, you can have your choice of those. How about L.T.?

"LaDainian Tomlinson was born to Loreane Chappell and the late Oliver Tomlinson in Rosebud, Texas. His early life was full of adversity; his brother and grandfather died when he was a child, and his father became permanently disabled after suffering a severe back injury. Later, his parents divorced, and Loreane was forced to support the remaining members of the family by herself"

He seems to have turned out alright.

 

I really don't know if Vick is guilty or not. The prosecutors make him out to be an evil person, yet people from his hometown seem to view him quite differently: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-v...p&type=lgns

 

But if he is guilty, he needs to do the time.

 

I'm all for the notion of "let ye who is without sin cast the first stone," but at the same time there has to be consequences for certain actions that people make in life. As I said above, I have a hard time accepting Deion's point of view.

Edited by Crazysight
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Menudo ... you signed up about four or five months before Irish. Do you even know what Hugh was referring to?

 

Big John will clue you in. I've been here since the beginning in 1997. I was also member #60 when it moved over here, but, I lost the password and had a new one created. There are only a handful of people that were here before me. However, due to my own irresponsibility, my member # and sign-on date don't reflect my veteranship, and there would be no way for you to know that.

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BullSega!. Vick's what 28 yrs old? He's been handed everything since he stepped on the field at VT. He chooses the environment he's in now and I know alot of people who have risen above their upbringing. I ain't buyin' it.

You make choices in life and take responsibility for them. Upbringing my ass.

Um.....if you'd like to go back and take another look, I was interpreting CDs post, as far as upbringing having an effect on the natural mores people have. I wasn't agreeing with those mores, only agreeing that they do exist. I also stated that whether Vick and Co have these mores is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned - it is the mores of society that are important.

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Um.....if you'd like to go back and take another look, I was interpreting CDs post, as far as upbringing having an effect on the natural mores people have. I wasn't agreeing with those mores, only agreeing that they do exist. I also stated that whether Vick and Co have these mores is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned - it is the mores of society that are important.

 

 

Its moops

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