Any Basketball Referees Here?

[Easy n Dirty]

Ran into this situation at a weekly game this past week - actually have run into it a number of times.

 

A guy is dribbling down court, then goes to pick up the ball to pass it, with both hands. The ball slips out of his hands and bounces away. he runs over and grabs the ball, then passes it away without dribbling again.

 

A couple guys wanted to call him for either a double dribble or a self pass. I always thought that when the ball slips out of your hands in that fashion, you are allowed to regain possession of the ball but not advance it, but I'm having trouble finding something definitive on the web that applies to this specific situation.

 

It does not appear to be a double dribble per the rule as cited by Wikipedia:

In the game of basketball, a double dribble is a violation in which a player dribbles (bounces) the ball, clearly holds it with a combination of either one or two hands (while either moving or stationary), and then proceeds to dribble again without first either attempting a field goal or passing off to a teammate.

 

A double dribble violation includes other forms of dribbling violations such as striking the ball with a closed fist or dribbling the ball with both hands.

 

But it's a little more difficult to find something stating definitively that the player can regain possession, or at least I haven't found it yet.

 

Any help?

[billay]

I think the situation you describe, where both hands touched the ball before he lost possession would, in the strictest sense, constitute a two handed dribble. Generally, if you loose the possession of the ball like that the ref isn't going to give you the benefit of the doubt , but that's at the college and professional level. Is this rec basketball? High School? Depending on the age of the kids, I might say you could let it slide if they are at the age where they are still learning skills.

[darin3]

I've reffed basketball for several years, but I'm a bit rusty. I think this is really a judgment call. I'm not going to rely on Wikipedia here, rather, I'll look at the NBA rules. Rule 4.3.6 states that the dribble ends when the dribbler "loses control". Whether that means loses control of the ball or loses control of his body is unclear. Either way, losing control of the ball could be construed as also losing control of your body. So in many ref's minds, grabbing the ball - on a different position on the court - after losing control of it, could be double dribble or traveling. Again, judgment call. If he didn't gain any advantage, I probably would have let it slide..

[aqualung]

When I played over 35 years ago it would have been called a double dribble. Only if an opponent touched the ball would you be able to proceed with the ball. Nowadays they seem awfully lax about calling anything.

[billay]

When I played over 35 years ago it would have been called a double dribble. Only if an opponent touched the ball would you be able to proceed with the ball. Nowadays they seem awfully lax about calling anything.

What level of ball did you play aqua?

[Easy n Dirty]

I've reffed basketball for several years, but I'm a bit rusty. I think this is really a judgment call. I'm not going to rely on Wikipedia here, rather, I'll look at the NBA rules. Rule 4.3.6 states that the dribble ends when the dribbler "loses control". Whether that means loses control of the ball or loses control of his body is unclear. Either way, losing control of the ball could be construed as also losing control of your body. So in many ref's minds, grabbing the ball - on a different position on the court - after losing control of it, could be double dribble or traveling. Again, judgment call. If he didn't gain any advantage, I probably would have let it slide..

 

There's no disputing that his dribble ended when he attempted to pick up the ball and it slipped out of his hands. The only question is whether, once this happened, is he allowed to regain possession. And to reiterate, there's no disputing that once he regains possession, he may not dribble again, as this would clearly be a double dribble (dribble, dribble ends, dribble again). I don't see how grabbing the ball again in and of itself could constitute double dribbling as there is no second dribbling sequence at this point.

 

And I really doubt that this is a judgment call.

[Easy n Dirty]

I think the situation you describe, where both hands touched the ball before he lost possession would, in the strictest sense, constitute a two handed dribble. Generally, if you loose the possession of the ball like that the ref isn't going to give you the benefit of the doubt , but that's at the college and professional level. Is this rec basketball? High School? Depending on the age of the kids, I might say you could let it slide if they are at the age where they are still learning skills.

 

This is rec basketball with adults, not looking to cut anyone slack here - but I think your interpretation is wrong, though I seem to be in the minority.

[MojoMan]

If you're Jordan (back in the day) or Kobe, you get four steps when driving so I'd let this go.

[aqualung]

What level of ball did you play aqua?

 

High school, but I scrimmaged with the local college team for a number of years.

[billay]

This is rec basketball with adults, not looking to cut anyone slack here - but I think your interpretation is wrong, though I seem to be in the minority.

Maybe so. I'm only an avid fan, but once both hands touch the ball, you must pass or shoot, no?

[cre8tiff]

I wish I were an NBA referee. I could afford a bigger house.

[Dragon]

IMO - As you described it, it is NOT a double dribble. The player picked up his dribble in an attempt to make a pass, losing control of the ball and then regaining possession.

[billay]

Section 18. Dribble

Art. 1. A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats,

pushes or taps the ball to the playing court once or several times.

A.R. 10. In the front court of Team A (the back court of Team , A1 passes the ball to

A2. B1, in an attempt to secure the ball, bats it down the playing court toward B’s basket.

The ball bounces several times before B1 can recover it in B’s front court. B1 dribbles

to B’s basket and scores. RULING: Legal. The bat of the ball by B1 shall not be

considered part of the dribble. B1 does not have control of the ball until securing it

after batting it.

Art. 2. The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing, tapping or batting

the ball to the playing court.

Art. 3. During a dribble, the ball may be batted into the air, provided that

it is permitted to strike the playing court one or more times before the

ball is touched again with either hand.

Art. 4. The dribble ends when:

a. The dribbler catches or carries/palms the ball by allowing it to

come to rest in one or both hands.

b. The dribbler touches the ball with both hands simultaneously.c. An opponent bats the ball.

d. The ball becomes dead.

BR-71

A.R. 11. A1, while advancing the ball by dribbling, manages to keep a hand in contact

with the ball until it reaches its maximum height. A1 maintains such control as the ball

descends, pushing it to the playing court at the last moment; however, after six or

seven bounces, A1’s hands are in contact with the ball and the palm of the hand on

this particular dribble is skyward. RULING: Violation. The ball has come to rest on

the hand while the palm and the fingers are facing upward, so the dribble has ended.

When the player continues to move or stand still and dribble, the player has committed

a violation by dribbling a second time. (See Rule 9-7.)

A.R. 12. Is a player considered to be dribbling while touching the ball during a jump,

when a pass rebounds from the player’s hand, when the player fumbles or when the

player tips a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it?

RULING: No. The player is not in control under these conditions and therefore is not

dribbling.A.R. 13. A1 dribbles and comes to a stop, after which A1 throws the ball: (a) against

the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; or ( against the official, immediately

recovering the ball and dribbling again. RULING: A1 has committed a violation

in both (a) and (. Throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official

constitutes another dribble, provided that A1 is first to touch the ball after it

strikes the official or the backboard.

A.R. 14. A1 is dribbling the ball when: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an opponent,

runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the playing court and continues to

dribble or ( A1 fumbles the ball in an attempt to complete his or her dribble and

causes the ball to roll out of reach so that A1 must run to recover it. RULING:

Violation in (a) because the ball is touched twice during a dribble, before the ball

touches the playing court. In (, it is illegal to continue to dribble but A1 may recover

the ball.

Art. 5. An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting

off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler.

Art. 6. During an interrupted dribble, there shall be no player control and

the following cannot occur:

a. Player-control foul.

b. Acknowledgment of a timeout request.

c. (Men) Five-second closely guarded dribbling violation.

A.R. 15. A1 is dribbling the ball in the front court when the ball momentarily gets

away from him or her. While the dribble is interrupted: (a) A1 pushes B2 while trying

to retrieve the ball; ( A2 is in the lane for four seconds; and © A1 calls a timeout.

RULING: (a) Team-control foul on A1; ( three-second violation on A2; or © a timeout

shall not be acknowledged during an interrupted dribble.

 

This is from the NCAA 2006 handbook. It looks like a gray area. Once two hands touch the ball, the dribble is over, loss or not, but a fumble is not considered a dribble. Since it is a fumble, the play may recover the ball, but not be allowed to dribble again.

 

ETA, I'm not sure why all those shades are in there.

Edited August 10, 2007 by billay

[Bring Back Pat!!!]

IMO - As you described it, it is NOT a double dribble. The player picked up his dribble in an attempt to make a pass, losing control of the ball and then regaining possession.

 

Exactly the correct answer.

 

I've refed for everything from intramurals and peewee leagues to high school jay-vee (stopped before getting to do varsity games). As long as the player has not made an attempt to dribble the ball with both hands (which as you described it, he didn't) and as long as he didn't dribble once he regained posession, it is not a double dribble. You are allowed to regain posession of the ball in this instance, but you are not allowed any steps once obtained, nor are you allowed to dribble again.

[Big John]

ETA, I'm not sure why all those shades are in there.

Huddle code for the graemlin. and it comes in with upper or lower case

 

 

 b)

 

[wildcat2334]

I've reffed basketball for several years, but I'm a bit rusty. I think this is really a judgment call. I'm not going to rely on Wikipedia here, rather, I'll look at the NBA rules. Rule 4.3.6 states that the dribble ends when the dribbler "loses control". Whether that means loses control of the ball or loses control of his body is unclear. Either way, losing control of the ball could be construed as also losing control of your body. So in many ref's minds, grabbing the ball - on a different position on the court - after losing control of it, could be double dribble or traveling. Again, judgment call. If he didn't gain any advantage, I probably would have let it slide..

 

 

Yup- I have run into this many times both playing and as a ref. The Original post IS traveling. If the player is already dribbling the ball, once the dribble is stopped, and the ball is controlled with both hands, an the player loses control of the ball and it is out of their hands......possession is over- and if they pick it back up it is dd or traveling, either way. I am making this call everytime either playing or refereeing.

 

I think the confusion is if a player has NOT started their dribble, they can lose control of the ball pick it up and then dribble without it being a violation.

 

Original post is a violation all day long.

[Easy n Dirty]

Yup- I have run into this many times both playing and as a ref. The Original post IS traveling. If the player is already dribbling the ball, once the dribble is stopped, and the ball is controlled with both hands, an the player loses control of the ball and it is out of their hands......possession is over- and if they pick it back up it is dd or traveling, either way. I am making this call everytime either playing or refereeing.

 

I think the confusion is if a player has NOT started their dribble, they can lose control of the ball pick it up and then dribble without it being a violation.

 

Original post is a violation all day long.

 

Ball was never "controlled" with both hands - it was in the process of picking up his dribble that the player lost the ball and it bounced away - in this instance, I believe the player is permitted to regain possession but not advance the ball further (i.e., start dribbling again). Rules cited above seem to support this interpretation.

[Big Country]

Upon first reading of the initial post, I believe the player is entitled to regain possession of the ball but may only pass or shoot from the place that he regains possession. IMO it is very similar to if he dribbled the ball off of his foot (which is not considered a kicked ball).

[darin3]

There's no disputing that his dribble ended when he attempted to pick up the ball and it slipped out of his hands. The only question is whether, once this happened, is he allowed to regain possession. And to reiterate, there's no disputing that once he regains possession, he may not dribble again, as this would clearly be a double dribble (dribble, dribble ends, dribble again). I don't see how grabbing the ball again in and of itself could constitute double dribbling as there is no second dribbling sequence at this point.

 

And I really doubt that this is a judgment call.

From your original post, it would be a judgment call. There is nothing specific in the rulebook that specifically addresses this, therefore, a judgment call.

[Easy n Dirty]

From your original post, it would be a judgment call. There is nothing specific in the rulebook that specifically addresses this, therefore, a judgment call.

 

 

Generally, the rulebook outlines specifically what constitutes a violation. If this is not deemed a violation in the rulebook, then I don't see how the ref would have the latitude to make a judgment call that some sort of violation took place.

 

However, I guess there is a similar situation where a player picks up his dribble, and then makes an errant pass (i.e., intentionally passes the ball, but does so poorly and the loose ball remains in play on the court). In that instance, perhaps the ref could make a judgment that an intentional pass had been made and could then rule that the original player is not permitted to regain possession without anyone else touching it? Not sure - but in the specific incident which took place in our game the other night, there was no mistaking it, the guy was trying to pick up his dribble and mishandled the ball, he did not lose the ball in the act of passing.

[darin3]

Generally, the rulebook outlines specifically what constitutes a violation. If this is not deemed a violation in the rulebook, then I don't see how the ref would have the latitude to make a judgment call that some sort of violation took place.

 

However, I guess there is a similar situation where a player picks up his dribble, and then makes an errant pass (i.e., intentionally passes the ball, but does so poorly and the loose ball remains in play on the court). In that instance, perhaps the ref could make a judgment that an intentional pass had been made and could then rule that the original player is not permitted to regain possession without anyone else touching it? Not sure - but in the specific incident which took place in our game the other night, there was no mistaking it, the guy was trying to pick up his dribble and mishandled the ball, he did not lose the ball in the act of passing.

Exactly. "Judgment calls" don't necessarily have to be real "gray area" types of calls. In this instance, the ref would simply have to make a judgment as to if it was a pass that he stopped mid-stream (and just appearing to be a mis-handle) or really, truly, simply a mis-handle.

[keggerz]

i believe that Down Goes Frazia refs basketball too