The Problems in Philly

[The Stoner]

I was at the game Monday. The fans at the stadium were brutal. But like it or not McNabb is not the problem. The front offices is a problem. Marty's play calling is a problem. They refuse to run the ball. They have the biggest OL in the league. They can not pass block. McNabb has been scrambling like eggs every game. In their last series, 3rd and 2 from the 8, what's the play? A draw out of the shotgun. How dumb is that!!! Line up behind those big uglies and run the rock. Pick up the two yards. That's what they did when Garcia was there. Trust, this organization, MY team is not going to win the big game anytime soon, And it's the organizations fault. Spend some money. Re-Sign some vets. Get McNabb some real weapons. Sure McNabb throws some bad passes but everyone does. The commitment to win has to come from the Front Office. Until we get that we aren't going anywhere. Everyone else is getting better. We get Kevin Curtis. Anyone who questions McNabbs caliber needs to check his stat line. He has won big with WR's that wouldn't be #3's on most teams. Just my humble opinion.

[matt770]

I was at the game Monday. The fans at the stadium were brutal. But like it or not McNabb is not the problem. The front offices is a problem. Marty's play calling is a problem. They refuse to run the ball. They have the biggest OL in the league. They can not pass block. McNabb has been scrambling like eggs every game. In their last series, 3rd and 2 from the 8, what's the play? A draw out of the shotgun. How dumb is that!!! Line up behind those big uglies and run the rock. Pick up the two yards. That's what they did when Garcia was there. Trust, this organization, MY team is not going to win the big game anytime soon, And it's the organizations fault. Spend some money. Re-Sign some vets. Get McNabb some real weapons. Sure McNabb throws some bad passes but everyone does. The commitment to win has to come from the Front Office. Until we get that we aren't going anywhere. Everyone else is getting better. We get Kevin Curtis. Anyone who questions McNabbs caliber needs to check his stat line. He has won big with WR's that wouldn't be #3's on most teams. Just my humble opinion.

 

Dude, were you baked when you wrote that?

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

Kevin Curtis for Brad Childress straight up?

[DMD]

That oiffensive scheme is all about the quarterback (which makes Childress using Jackson in MIN astounding but I digress) and it all starts and ends with the QB like it or not. The offense has never been about establishing a running game - it only supports the passing game which is generally predicated on short, accurate passes mixed in with the occasional long strike but it is a short passing scheme at the very core. There is no change in personnel on the offense in players or coaches other than Kevin Curtis instead of Stallworth which I stongly contend is an actual upgrade. LJ Smith is limited a bit but there is no reason outside of McNabb why they are struggling.

 

His passes are often errant and not just by a few inches. A couple of passes made it hard to determine exactly who he was throwing to. And as McNabbs mechanics change, so does catching his passes which no longer arrive in the same way. For my money, this is about 98% about McNabb and 2% because opponents are secretly taping their sideline. Perhaps McNabb is still better than anything else they have to use, but that ain't McNabb of 2006 by any means.

[Liverlips]

That oiffensive scheme is all about the quarterback (which makes Childress using Jackson in MIN astounding but I digress) and it all starts and ends with the QB like it or not. The offense has never been about establishing a running game - it only supports the passing game which is generally predicated on short, accurate passes mixed in with the occasional long strike but it is a short passing scheme at the very core. There is no change in personnel on the offense in players or coaches other than Kevin Curtis instead of Stallworth which I stongly contend is an actual upgrade. LJ Smith is limited a bit but there is no reason outside of McNabb why they are struggling.

 

His passes are often errant and not just by a few inches. A couple of passes made it hard to determine exactly who he was throwing to. And as McNabbs mechanics change, so does catching his passes which no longer arrive in the same way. For my money, this is about 98% about McNabb and 2% because opponents are secretly taping their sideline. Perhaps McNabb is still better than anything else they have to use, but that ain't McNabb of 2006 by any means.

 

And he's a black qb, so we ask him to do more.

[Tega]

As a person, McNabb seems like a great person. Still - I said it at the end of last season - Philadelphia should have kept Garcia and got rid of McNabb. Garcia runs that offense better. Yes, he's older than McNabb, but as far as football age - I think McNabb's body has aged more because of all his injuries. McNabb isn't near as mobile as he use to be. That was so important to the way he played the QB position.

[FordFairlane]

I don't think McNabb gets more criticism because of his race; he gets it because he's in Philly. He's never known life in an NFL city that doesn't take pride in turning on their stars the second they struggle.

 

The other reason that he gets more criticism is that so much is on his shoulders. It is legit to say that because of the personnel he had to work with and the unbalanced playcalling of the Eagle offense, no team in the NFL demanded more from its quarterback than the Eagles do from Donovan McNabb. No team is more dependent on the play of their QB for winning or losing than Philly is on McNabb.

(Of course, his title was taken away the day Vince Young made his first start with the Titans.)

 

I thought that as much pressure as there would be on McNabb this season, there would be just as much pressure on Andy Reid. When Jeff Garcia took over for McNabb, Reid finally balanced his offense the way people had been pleading him to do for years. It make Garcia a success and Brian Westrbook a superstar. The question I had was whether Reid had it in him to keep that gameplan when McNabb returned, or if he would fall back into the old unbalanced playcalling that put Donvan on the trainer's table so often.

(one fallacy about the West Coast philosophy where a short pass is as good as a handoff: pass-rushers don't take free shots at your QB on handoffs...)

 

Another thing I can't believe about the Eagles brass is that after they saw what the team was capable of with a go-to WR like Terrell Owens, how could they be so nonchalant about losing him? Reggie Brown is an Option-2 receiver, and Kevin Curtis is a great Option-3 or solid Option-2. There is still a gaping hole in that Option-1 spot that Philly is going to have to spend $$$ on yet again this offseason.

Edited September 19, 2007 by FordFairlane

[Bill Swerski]

That oiffensive scheme is all about the quarterback (which makes Childress using Jackson in MIN astounding but I digress) and it all starts and ends with the QB like it or not. The offense has never been about establishing a running game - it only supports the passing game

 

And this is why people like Andy Reid and Mike Martz have never won a SB as a HC and probably never will.

[Avernus]

As a person, McNabb seems like a great person. Still - I said it at the end of last season - Philadelphia should have kept Garcia and got rid of McNabb. Garcia runs that offense better. Yes, he's older than McNabb, but as far as football age - I think McNabb's body has aged more because of all his injuries. McNabb isn't near as mobile as he use to be. That was so important to the way he played the QB position.

 

Garcia is not anywhere near the level McNabb is....

 

did you notice the playcalling was completely different with Garcia in?

[Bill Swerski]

Garcia is not anywhere near the level McNabb is....

 

+1

 

did you notice the playcalling was completely different with Garcia in?

 

BINGO!

 

Funny how running the ball cuts down on INTs and, most importantly, helps win games.

 

I like Andy Reid, but he's much better off as an OC.

[piratesownninjas]

And he's a black qb, so we ask him to do more.

[ebartender]

+1

BINGO!

 

Funny how running the ball cuts down on INTs and, most importantly, helps win games.

 

I like Andy Reid, but he's much better off as an OC.

 

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't McNabb have one of the best career TD to INT ratios?

 

Since Reid has never been an OC how can you make that judgement? I believe he went right from O-line coach to HC.

[Bill Swerski]

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't McNabb have one of the best career TD to INT ratios?

 

Since Reid has never been an OC how can you make that judgement? I believe he went right from O-line coach to HC.

 

My comment was based on Garcia's better TD/INT ratio last year and the fact that the increased efficiency when Garcia was on the field (not to mention the fact that they won more games) was based heavily on the fact that they ran the ball more after McNabb went down.

 

And my belief that Reid would be a good OC is based on the fact that the offensive scheme that they run in Philly is HIS and that it IS a pretty good scheme. Therefore, he knows how to run an offense. I simply disagree with his pass-heavy play-calling.

 

ETA: Reid was Favre's QB coach in GB for a year. I also forgot that Marty took over the offensive play-calling halfway through last year, although I'm not sure if he's still doing it.

Edited September 20, 2007 by Bill Swerski

[DaFranchise777]

McNabb sucks Richard and basketBalls...You Philly fans keep on lovin' him,and be sure you keep on draftin' him....

[i_am_the_swammi]

And this is why people like Andy Reid and Mike Martz have never won a SB as a HC and probably never will.

 

Interesting comment...Redi has been on the cusp of Super Bowl wins four separate occasions, using the pass-first system to set up the run. Are you saying the reason they lost 3 NFC Championship games, and one Super Bowl, is because they didn't run enough?

 

And FWI...the same "pass first to set up the run" system, a la WCO, was used by Bill Walsh and Mike Holmgren with some pretty good success. If you want to say that the Eagles don't have a Montana/Young/Favre running it, thats a different argument...but don't say the system is the reason those coaches won't win.

[NSab]

McNabb doesn't get roasted in Philly over race. He doesn't even really get it for his bad playing. he is over sensitive IMO.

 

 

Just win!

Edited September 20, 2007 by NSab

[wildcat2334]

Garcia is not anywhere near the level McNabb is....

 

did you notice the playcalling was completely different with Garcia in?

 

 

Yup- anyone who thinks Garcia is a better QB than McNabb is outta their mind. I like Donovan - I think this is just the rust, and him trying to get back to 100%. He may be fading some- but I think he will show week to week improvement. People forgot how damn good he was with a bunch of Arena League caliber Wr's.

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

Interesting comment...Redi has been on the cusp of Super Bowl wins four separate occasions, using the pass-first system to set up the run. Are you saying the reason they lost 3 NFC Championship games, and one Super Bowl, is because they didn't run enough?

 

And FWI...the same "pass first to set up the run" system, a la WCO, was used by Bill Walsh and Mike Holmgren with some pretty good success. If you want to say that the Eagles don't have a Montana/Young/Favre running it, thats a different argument...but don't say the system is the reason those coaches won't win.

 

To play the devil's advocate here, that system, the WCO, has been around forever and defenses have evolved to make it less effective. You've got to evolve to be successful in this league. The WCO is no exception. Yes, there are some exceptions of teams and players that execute the plays so damn well (think the Mannings and Tomlinsons of the world) that no matter if you know the system and prepare for it, you just can't stop them over the long run. But I guess Philly just doesn't have that level of talent, as someone has already stated.

[McNasty]

To play the devil's advocate here, that system, the WCO, has been around forever and defenses have evolved to make it less effective. You've got to evolve to be successful in this league. The WCO is no exception. Yes, there are some exceptions of teams and players that execute the plays so damn well (think the Mannings and Tomlinsons of the world) that no matter if you know the system and prepare for it, you just can't stop them over the long run. But I guess Philly just doesn't have that level of talent, as someone has already stated.

 

and a big +1 on this, with an added note that when McNabb is on top of his game, he is talented enough to execute the Offense. It's getting harder and harder to remember what that looks like, though.

[Bill Swerski]

Interesting comment...Redi has been on the cusp of Super Bowl wins four separate occasions, using the pass-first system to set up the run. Are you saying the reason they lost 3 NFC Championship games, and one Super Bowl, is because they didn't run enough?

 

And FWI...the same "pass first to set up the run" system, a la WCO, was used by Bill Walsh and Mike Holmgren with some pretty good success. If you want to say that the Eagles don't have a Montana/Young/Favre running it, thats a different argument...but don't say the system is the reason those coaches won't win.

 

(1) Holmgren ran the ball somewhere between an average amount and maybe the lower third of the league while in GB, but he utilized the run tremendously in SEA where he had dominant run-blocking line and a borderline-HOF back. That's very telling. Running a WCO doesn't mean that one gets rid of the run entirely (e.g., Shanahan's offense is the opposite extreme of the WCO that Reid runs). The point is to replace SOME running plays on first and second down with short passing plays to make the offense less predictable (and so that one's QB doesn't get killed on 3rd down).

 

(2) Walsh's successful teams also ran A LOT more than Reid's (6th in attempts in '81 and '84, 7th in '88). In addition, the defenses that the 49ers faced in the '80s and early '90s are not the same as the 3-4 and Cover 2 speed- and coverage-based schemes that are used today. So I don't see how what worked in 1984 or even 1994 is necessarily going to work today. As was mentioned a couple of posts ago, defensive coordinators play the pass (and the WCO in particular) a lot differently than they did back in the Walsh/Siefert Niner days.

 

(3) I'm not going to say that running a very pass-heavy offense is what kept the Eagles from winning a ring or even winning multiple NFC titles. But I think it's obvious that passing the ball 51 times vs. 16 handoffs against Belichick's 3-4 scheme and that shut down Martz's Rams offense three years earlier was just plain stupid. That's not "passing to set up the run", because they didn't bother to do much of the latter part.

Edited September 20, 2007 by Bill Swerski

[NSab]

IF he need to talk about anything to the media, he should voice the opinion about the orginization getting him some talent to throw to.

[Vet]

I think Philly will win the division by at least two games this year.

[Dont Rookie Me........]

I think Philly will win the division by at least two games this year.

 

so assuming that Dallas or the Redskins get to 10 wins you are saying the Beagles are going to go 11-3 ( I count two loses against NE and Chi for sure)

So for the rest of the season the go 10-1

 

[Bronco Billy]

Garcia is not anywhere near the level McNabb is....

 

 

Yup- anyone who thinks Garcia is a better QB than McNabb is outta their mind.

 

Well, I must be out of my mind.

 

Garcia shows better than McNabb in most meaningful QB career stats, and playing with the same team last year posted a 5-1 record while McNabb was 5-5.

 

I do believe that McNabb is vastly over-rated & Garcia is vastly under-rated.

[i_am_the_swammi]

I do believe that McNabb is vastly over-rated Garcia is vastly under-rated.

 

disagree...he has made mountains out of molehills...can you name one other QB that has had the kind of success McNabb has had with the type of support cast he has had to endure? I honestly can't think of one.

 

I doubt he will ever be the electrifying Qb he was back in 2000-2004, due to the injuries he has suffered. And technically, he is not sound enough to be an adequate pocket-passer, so his days among the elite may be over.

 

If you have him as a top-10 Qb today, you are indeed over-rating him....but he shouldn't be considered there in the first place, not at this point in his career with the cast around him.

 

 

Garcia is vastly under-rated

 

100% agree