The Problems in Philly

[Bronco Billy]

disagree...he has made mountains out of molehills...can you name one other QB that has had the kind of success McNabb has had with the type of support cast he has had to endure? I honestly can't think of one.

 

The other answer may be that while his WRs have always sucked excpet for Owens for the most part, his RBs & TEs have been excellent recievers, whether it was Staley & Chad Lewis or Westbrook & LJ Smith. That could easily inflate McNabb's numbers because he was in an offense where he only had to make relatively easy throws and let the reciever run after the catch rather than taking legitimate shots downfield.

 

In a short passing O, a QB could put up some very strong numbers while not having to be a stud passer. In any case, his ypa, comp percentage, and QB rating aren't exactly at earmark levels for a great QB. In fact, they are rather pedestrian, and Garcia passes him in all 3 marks.

[Bill Swerski]

The other answer may be that while his WRs have always sucked excpet for Owens for the most part, his RBs & TEs have been excellent recievers, whether it was Staley & Chad Lewis or Westbrook & LJ Smith. That could easily inflate McNabb's numbers because he was in an offense where he only had to make relatively easy throws and let the reciever run after the catch rather than taking legitimate shots downfield.

 

And having crap for talent at wideout also means that McNabb can't stretch defenses and open up the middle of the field for his RBs and TEs. Combining that with the fact that Reid's offense has historically not run the ball nearly enough, it's a lot easier for opposing defenses to cover those short routes.

 

In a short passing O, a QB could put up some very strong numbers while not having to be a stud passer. In any case, his ypa, comp percentage, and QB rating aren't exactly at earmark levels for a great QB. In fact, they are rather pedestrian, and Garcia passes him in all 3 marks.

 

You're making that statement based on six games that Garcia started in Philly where more running plays were called to take pressure off of him. I agree that Garcia's a more accurate passer and did a hell of a job last year - and that he's probably still better than a McNabb who is still recovering from a torn ACL, but that really isn't saying much. I also agree that McNabb's lack of accuracy is not a good fit for a very pass-heavy WCO. But Garcia hasn't sustained that level of play for a full season since getting the boot from San Fran, he's older than dirt, and he has a noodle for an arm. I don't see how that makes him a better option at QB than a completely healthy McNabb.

Edited September 20, 2007 by Bill Swerski

[i_am_the_swammi]

The other answer may be that while his WRs have always sucked excpet for Owens for the most part, his RBs & TEs have been excellent recievers, whether it was Staley & Chad Lewis or Westbrook & LJ Smith. That could easily inflate McNabb's numbers because he was in an offense where he only had to make relatively easy throws and let the reciever run after the catch rather than taking legitimate shots downfield.

 

In a short passing O, a QB could put up some very strong numbers while not having to be a stud passer. In any case, his ypa, comp percentage, and QB rating aren't exactly at earmark levels for a great QB. In fact, they are rather pedestrian, and Garcia passes him in all 3 marks.

 

Very good points....

 

except that Garcia played in the exact same system in SF (dumping to RBs & TEs), while also having stud-T.O for four seasons to help inflate his YPA, TPC, and TD totals.

 

Comparison, knowing that Garcia had Owens to throw to, and McNabb had Charles Johnson, Freddy Mitchelll and James Thrash to stretch the field...McNabb has played 6 more games:

 

 

Garcia

TDS: 138

YPC: 6.9

Comp %: 61.0

Rating: 86.9

Att/Game: 29.9

Rushing YDs: 1887

 

Mcnabb

TDs: 153

YPC: 6.7

Comp %: 58.1

Rating: 84.8

Rush Yds: 2750

 

Now, as a comparison, here is Mcnabb's only year with Owens (2004):

 

TDs: 31

YPC: 8.3

Comp %: 64.0

Rating: 104.7

 

It blows away any one year that Garica had with Owens....imagine McNabb's career numbers if he had Owens (or someone like him) for four seasons (like Garcia had)?

Edited September 20, 2007 by i_am_the_swammi

[Bronco Billy]

Now, as a comparison, here is Mcnabb's only year with Owens (2004):

 

TDs: 31

YPC: 8.3

Comp %: 64.0

Rating: 104.7

 

It blows away any one year that Garica had with Owens....imagine McNabb's career numbers if he had Owens (or someone like him) for four seasons (like Garcia had)?

 

I love a good debate!

 

Garcia in '00 is very comparable to McNabb with Owens in '04, so McNabb's best with Owenws does not "blow away" any year Garcia had with Owens in SF.

 

In any case, Garcia' career numbers do compare favorably to McNabb's, and that includes Garcia's stint in DET & CLE. McNabb has always had Reid to work with in PHI. And again, the case in point is that McNabb does seem to be regressing as a QB - Garcia with the same team in PHI last year had much more success than McNabb did.

Edited September 20, 2007 by Bronco Billy

[Bill Swerski]

In any case, Garcia' career numbers do compare favorably to McNabb's, and that includes Garcia's stint in DET & CLE. McNabb has always had Reid to work with in PHI.

 

You're really downplaying the fact that T.O. made both of these guys look like studs at times (and is currently making Romo look like a stud)... and that Garcia had him for MUCH longer. If McNabb had T.O. for as long as Garcia did, he'd have several 30 TD seasons and possibly a league MVP as well.

 

And again, the case in point is that McNabb does seem to be regressing as a QB - Garcia with the same team in PHI last year had much more success than McNabb did.

 

Not to take away from what Garcia did, but the Eagles ran the ball a heck of a lot more with him than they did with McNabb last year. And that certainly helped their team win games. Their individual passing numbers really weren't that different.

Edited September 20, 2007 by Bill Swerski

[i_am_the_swammi]

I love a good debate!

 

Garcia in '00 is very comparable to McNabb with Owens in '04, so McNabb's best with Owenws does not "blow away" any year Garcia had with Owens in SF.

 

In any case, Garcia' career numbers do compare favorably to McNabb's, and that includes Garcia's stint in DET & CLE. McNabb has always had Reid to work with in PHI. And again, the case in point is that McNabb does seem to be regressing as a QB - Garcia with the same team in PHI last year had much more success than McNabb did.

 

...a good debate is always a pleasure!

 

Yes, Garia's numbers do include stints in CLE and DET, but McNabb's also include 2005, where he tried, in vain, to play through a sports hernia. It also included a season where Westbrook was lost for 7 games, and another where Owens was lost for 6 (remember, he didn't play the final 6 games in the eyar McNabb threw 31 TD passes...he came back for the SB).

 

As far as regressing, we'll see when he is 100% back from his injury...reconstructive knee surgery typically takes a full year, and that won't be until November. And last year, he was still recovering from his hernia surgery, so the last year and a half are a little skewed...at 30, I'd have a hard time believing he is significantly less skilled than when he was 28.

 

And call it a hunch, but assuming Westbrook is not too dinged, we'll see how the offense performs this Sunday with a more equal balance of run/pass, similar to the way the coaches protected Garcia last year. I think the coaches finally realize, after Monday, that McNabb is not fully back to form.

 

At least they better

[Bronco Billy]

Well, I hope that you guys are right about McNabb. I do own him in a couple of leagues and would like to see him carry his weight. I'm having my doubts after seeing how far off target he's been so far this year.

[Avernus]

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't McNabb have one of the best career TD to INT ratios?

 

Since Reid has never been an OC how can you make that judgement? I believe he went right from O-line coach to HC.

 

he was also previously the Packers QB coach when Favre came up...

 

also...Reid is so offensive minded that I think the best position for him would have to be OC....

 

just my .02

[Avernus]

My comment was based on Garcia's better TD/INT ratio last year and the fact that the increased efficiency when Garcia was on the field (not to mention the fact that they won more games) was based heavily on the fact that they ran the ball more after McNabb went down.

 

And my belief that Reid would be a good OC is based on the fact that the offensive scheme that they run in Philly is HIS and that it IS a pretty good scheme. Therefore, he knows how to run an offense. I simply disagree with his pass-heavy play-calling.

 

ETA: Reid was Favre's QB coach in GB for a year. I also forgot that Marty took over the offensive play-calling halfway through last year, although I'm not sure if he's still doing it.

 

Reid took over right around the playoffs....when we played the Saints...

 

and you could tell....because the playcalling was suddenly "pass heavy" again..

[Avernus]

McNabb doesn't get roasted in Philly over race. He doesn't even really get it for his bad playing. he is over sensitive IMO.

Just win!

 

his heart is made of real fahgina...

[Avernus]

so assuming that Dallas or the Redskins get to 10 wins you are saying the Beagles are going to go 11-3 ( I count two loses against NE and Chi for sure)

So for the rest of the season the go 10-1

 

 

 

....I think you're overestimating Dallas and Washington right now...

 

remember back in 2003 when Quinthy led the Boys to a victory over the Eagles and "the sky was falling"...."Dallas was taking over"...

 

I won't be sold on a new team taking the NFC east crown until around week 8 or later...

[Avernus]

Well, I must be out of my mind.

 

Garcia shows better than McNabb in most meaningful QB career stats, and playing with the same team last year posted a 5-1 record while McNabb was 5-5.

 

I do believe that McNabb is vastly over-rated & Garcia is vastly under-rated.

 

did you watch the games that Garcia took over (other than the playoff games where Reid decided to throw more)...

 

because if you did...you would notice Westbrook ran A LOT more...

 

in the Philadelphia area...the only fans who say Garcia is better are the ones who were too drunk to even remember the games....they just remember him running around and yelling alot to get people fired up...

 

the run/pass ratio was completely different than it was when McNabb was in....plain and simple....

 

and by using logic...this opens the passing lanes up more when people have to respect the run...

[Bill Swerski]

Well, I hope that you guys are right about McNabb. I do own him in a couple of leagues and would like to see him carry his weight. I'm having my doubts after seeing how far off target he's been so far this year.

 

Keep in mind that he tore his ACL less than a year ago. It takes a full year and a half to recover from that injury. This may not be the best example, but Culpepper was all over the place as well last year after tearing up his knee. Carson Palmer wasn't throwing the ball accurately at the beginning of last year, either. There's an adjustment period. If McNabb is still throwing behind his receivers in Week 14, THEN I'd worry. I'd be more worried about his ability to avoid injury than his accuracy at this point.

[Avernus]

I love a good debate!

 

Garcia in '00 is very comparable to McNabb with Owens in '04, so McNabb's best with Owens does not "blow away" any year Garcia had with Owens in SF.

 

he would have if TO played the entire season...

[STL Fan]

And this is why people like Andy Reid and Mike Martz have never won a SB as a HC and probably never will.

 

Martz won a SB as OC and called every single play.

[Avernus]

Keep in mind that he tore his ACL less than a year ago. It takes a full year and a half to recover from that injury. This may not be the best example, but Culpepper was all over the place as well last year after tearing up his knee. Carson Palmer wasn't throwing the ball accurately at the beginning of last year, either. There's an adjustment period. If McNabb is still throwing behind his receivers in Week 14, THEN I'd worry. I'd be more worried about his ability to avoid injury than his accuracy at this point.

 

McNabb rushed himself back because the Eagles drafted Kolb....

 

he didn't want to see another QB come in and perform well in HIS offense...

 

he cares a little bit too much about what the fans and media think....and that's his problem...

 

because he plays in Philadelphia...and I wish the fans and media here had a longer leash...

 

the media seems to hate when things are going well....and they are the debil..

[gilwiggum]

Well, I must be out of my mind.

 

Garcia shows better than McNabb in most meaningful QB career stats, and playing with the same team last year posted a 5-1 record while McNabb was 5-5.

 

I do believe that McNabb is vastly over-rated & Garcia is vastly under-rated.

 

 

Garcia might be better suited for the Eagles offense right now, only because he is more mobile. McNabb had no time behind the line of scrimmage to make plays. His receivers were not getting enough seperation so every throw seemed forced. I think if he was healthier and could scramble more he would have done a better job. That being said, his throws didn't look great but I am guessing it was the injury and the lack of seperation. More importantly, let's remember he was (in some leagues) the top Fantasy QB last year before he got hurt. Garcia was not.

[Bill Swerski]

Martz won a SB as OC and called every single play.

 

I thought that Vermeil was calling plays back then. My mistake. Not surprising, though, as they threw 45 times vs. 12 designed runs. Good thing that they were playing the league's 26th ranked pass defense.

[Bill Swerski]

McNabb rushed himself back because the Eagles drafted Kolb....

 

he didn't want to see another QB come in and perform well in HIS offense...

 

he cares a little bit too much about what the fans and media think....and that's his problem...

 

I agree with all of that.

[Avernus]

Garcia might be better suited for the Eagles offense right now, only because he is more mobile. McNabb had no time behind the line of scrimmage to make plays. His receivers were not getting enough seperation so every throw seemed forced. I think if he was healthier and could scramble more he would have done a better job. That being said, his throws didn't look great but I am guessing it was the injury and the lack of seperation. More importantly, let's remember he was (in some leagues) the top Fantasy QB last year before he got hurt. Garcia was not.

 

not to mention him not being able to plant properly to have a more accurate throw...

[STL Fan]

I thought that Vermeil was calling plays back then. My mistake. Not surprising, though, as they threw 45 times vs. 12 designed runs. Good thing that they were playing the league's 26th ranked pass defense.

 

Also, 12 "designed runs" doesn't include all those screens and short throws to Marshall that essentially are running plays. The point is that if one aspect of your offense is THAT good, you don't need balance to win. In that era, the Rams lined up and told the defense they were going to throw and the D was still virtually powerless to stop them.

[Avernus]

Also, 12 "designed runs" doesn't include all those screens and short throws to Marshall that essentially are running plays. The point is that if one aspect of your offense is THAT good, you don't need balance to win. In that era, the Rams lined up and told the defense they were going to throw and the D was still virtually powerless to stop them.

 

see, the Rams had one of the best RB's in the history of the NFL along with a stout OL...an accurate passer with 2 great WR's (Holt in hindsight) and Az Hakim...

 

they were damm near flawless when they were on their A game..

[Bill Swerski]

Also, 12 "designed runs" doesn't include all those screens and short throws to Marshall that essentially are running plays. The point is that if one aspect of your offense is THAT good, you don't need balance to win. In that era, the Rams lined up and told the defense they were going to throw and the D was still virtually powerless to stop them.

 

The Patriots didn't exactly appear powerless to stop them.

 

I agree that balance isn't completely necessary, but it helps tremendously. Success with an unbalanced offense is heavily dependent on the matchups in the playoffs. The '99 Rams, '03 Pats and, to a lesser extent, the '96 Packers were able to win without strong running games. But much of that was due to the mediocre-to-bad secondaries that they faced in the SB. It also helped that those SB champ teams ranged form very good to superb on defense.

 

There have been A LOT of teams that had passing games that looked absolutely unstoppable during the regular season ('84 Dolphins, '01 Rams, '02 Raiders, '04 Colts) that suffered big-time in the playoffs because they couldn't run the ball effectively.

[STL Fan]

The Patriots didn't exactly appear powerless to stop them.

 

I agree that balance isn't completely necessary, but it helps tremendously. Success with an unbalanced offense is heavily dependent on the matchups in the playoffs. The '99 Rams, '03 Pats and, to a lesser extent, the '96 Packers were able to win without strong running games. But much of that was due to the mediocre-to-bad secondaries that they faced in the SB. It also helped that those SB champ teams ranged form very good to superb on defense.

 

There have been A LOT of teams that had passing games that looked absolutely unstoppable during the regular season ('84 Dolphins, '01 Rams, '02 Raiders, '04 Colts) that suffered big-time in the playoffs because they couldn't run the ball effectively.

 

And how did they manage that? It's like they had ESP or something . . .

[STL Fan]

The Patriots didn't exactly appear powerless to stop them.

 

I agree that balance isn't completely necessary, but it helps tremendously. Success with an unbalanced offense is heavily dependent on the matchups in the playoffs. The '99 Rams, '03 Pats and, to a lesser extent, the '96 Packers were able to win without strong running games. But much of that was due to the mediocre-to-bad secondaries that they faced in the SB. It also helped that those SB champ teams ranged form very good to superb on defense.

 

There have been A LOT of teams that had passing games that looked absolutely unstoppable during the regular season ('84 Dolphins, '01 Rams, '02 Raiders, '04 Colts) that suffered big-time in the playoffs because they couldn't run the ball effectively.

 

Also, the Rams D during the Super Bowl years was very very average. It was an advantage to know that the other team had to throw to try and keep up with the Rams O, but that D (even in the Super Bowl victory year) was average at best.