Bill Swerski Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 they did not have a great relationship. but he was still competetive and wanted to win...... he still trained him... prob held back a bit, but he had the best training him Not sure I agree with that... marino was getting 500+attmepts a year...montana was around 350-400.... balanced attack ... but I do agree with this. Shula looved to run the ball with Griese, Csonka, and Mercury Morris in his backfield. But he got away from that big-time in the '80s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Young went from T.B where he had 8 TD's and 13 INT's in 86 to S.F. where he thew 10 TD's and 0 int's when coming in for a hurt Montana in 87. Montana was not such a great teacher that he could transform someone thought to be a bust into someone amazing in 1 year. and at the time, young was prob somewhere in between a terrible tb and excellent sf in his development. walsh targeted players he thought would work well in his system (drunkenmiller wasn't a walsh choice). he had an eye for talent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holliday Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 and at the time, young was prob somewhere in between a terrible tb and excellent sf in his development. walsh targeted players he thought would work well in his system (drunkenmiller wasn't a walsh choice). he had an eye for talent IMO Young was just already good. he just had no time to get rid of the ball in T.B., he was forced into passing situations from behind and the system made him look horrible. The opposite when he went to S.F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 IMO Young was just already good. he just had no time to get rid of the ball in T.B., he was forced into passing situations from behind and the system made him look horrible. The opposite when he went to S.F. he had a lot of raw talent...was on a terrible tb team... took him a while to minimize his mistake when he got to sf.... but we have a high standard for qb's. was just checking some stats....... pass attempts really went up for the 9ers when seifert and shanny took hold of things. with walsh much more balanced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 marino was getting 500+attmepts a year...montana was around 350-400.... balanced attack well, you're overstating the difference quite a bit....montana averaged far more attempts than that per 16 games. over marino's career, he averaged 34.5 attempts per game....joe with the niners averaged 31.7....for a difference of 2.8 attempts per game, 44 per 16 games. the question is, if you drop joe montana onto the 84 dolphins, do they throw the ball 564 times? i don't think there is any way they do. the difference isn't that shula likes to throw more than walsh, the difference isn't that marino had all this awesome talent around him. the difference is that marino's arm was so friggin deadly. i am not saying one QB is better than the other. they are both among the very top tier of great players to play the position, but they were great in very different ways. let me put it this way, if you drop montana onto the 84 dolphins, i am convinced there is no way he throws for 5,000 yards and 48 TDs. likewise, if you drop marino onto the 81 niners, i don't think he wins the super bowl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holliday Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 well, you're overstating the difference quite a bit....montana averaged far more attempts than that per 16 games. over marino's career, he averaged 34.5 attempts per game....joe with the niners averaged 31.7....for a difference of 2.8 attempts per game, 44 per 16 games. the question is, if you drop joe montana onto the 84 dolphins, do they throw the ball 564 times? i don't think there is any way they do. the difference isn't that shula likes to throw more than walsh, the difference isn't that marino had all this awesome talent around him. the difference is that marino's arm was so friggin deadly. i am not saying one QB is better than the other. they are both among the very top tier of great players to play the position, but they were great in very different ways. let me put it this way, if you drop montana onto the 84 dolphins, i am convinced there is no way he throws for 5,000 yards and 48 TDs. likewise, if you drop marino onto the 81 niners, i don't think he wins the super bowl. The reason I like Marino more is he changed the way the Dolphins played the game. his play made them. with Montana they just did the exact things they did with Deberg except Montana was just better ,and the talent around got better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 The reason I like Marino more is he changed the way the Dolphins played the game. his play made them. with Montana they just did the exact things they did with Deberg except Montana was just better ,and the talent around got better. ya know, as i think about it, i will say this...i am a LOT more confident in my statement that montana wouldn't throw for 5000 yards and 48 TDs with the 84 dolphins than i am in my statement that marino wouldn't lead the 81 niners to the super bowl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 well, you're overstating the difference quite a bit....montana averaged far more attempts than that per 16 games. over marino's career, he averaged 34.5 attempts per game....joe with the niners averaged 31.7....for a difference of 2.8 attempts per game, 44 per 16 games. for games he player with the 9ers, i am seeing 27.5 attempts per game the question is, if you drop joe montana onto the 84 dolphins, do they throw the ball 564 times? i don't think there is any way they do. the difference isn't that shula likes to throw more than walsh, the difference isn't that marino had all this awesome talent around him. the difference is that marino's arm was so friggin deadly. shula did a great job of coaching by adjusting based on the talent he had. if you had a duper, clayton, nathan and montana...i can see 475-500 from joe. i am not saying one QB is better than the other. they are both among the very top tier of great players to play the position, but they were great in very different ways. let me put it this way, if you drop montana onto the 84 dolphins, i am convinced there is no way he throws for 5,000 yards and 48 TDs. likewise, if you drop marino onto the 81 niners, i don't think he wins the super bowl. i think joe comes closer to gaudy numbers than marino does to a sb with that 81 team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 for games he player with the 9ers, i am seeing 27.5 attempts per game i started counting in 1981, which is the first year he was the full-time starter. counting 16 "games" and 23 attempts in 1979 kinda drives that average way down. i think joe comes closer to gaudy numbers than marino does to a sb with that 81 team based on what? the most gaudy statistical year of joe's career was 1990: 520 attempts, 61.7% completion, 3944 yards, 26 TDs, 16 INTs. that was throwing to jerry rice, john taylor, brent jones and roger craig -- the best WR of all time, the best #2 WR of all time, one of the best TEs of all time, and one of the best receiving RBs of all time, not to mention one of the great offensive lines of all time. and yet you want me to believe that he would have put up marino-like stats if only he had mark duper and tony nathan to lean on? come on now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Ryan Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 This is the first season Brady has ever been considered the best at his position. And this season isnt over yet. SO there is no way he is the best ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 3 of Brady's TD's were 3-8 yard completions the Miami D couldn't tackle. Randy Moss pushed off twice and that Miami safety was awful. I don't think I've seen Miami play worse. Have they been that bad all year? Brady is very good, but he didn't see much competition in Miami. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 i happen to be chasing down a little mobile player over here..... i knocked off the 1st season and am coming up with 30.3 as a 9er. yes i believe joe more likely to have gaudy numbers than marino is to win a sb with the offense joe had in 81. i loved taylor, but the guy put only out up 2 1000 yd seasons. clayton had 5, duper 4..... montana didn't get rice until 85. i don't necesarily believe he sets those records, just constantly puts up high yds, td, while keeping his comp% higher than marino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 i happen to be chasing down a little mobile player over here..... i knocked off the 1st season and am coming up with 30.3 as a 9er. i threw out 80 as well, as deberg had more attempts that year than montana. yes i believe joe more likely to have gaudy numbers than marino is to win a sb with the offense joe had in 81. i loved taylor, but the guy put only out up 2 1000 yd seasons. clayton had 5, duper 4..... montana didn't get rice until 85. i don't necesarily believe he sets those records, just constantly puts up high yds, td, while keeping his comp% higher than marino i know montana had several years without rice. but he also had like 7 years WITH rice, taylor, craig, walsh, and everyone else. maybe the best collection of offensive talent over a prolonged period the league has ever seen, and montana was at the helm. and yet, in all those seasons joe never had a season over 4000 yards, only had one season over 30 TDs (31 in 87), and so on. to say he'd put up better stats with different (and without question, LESSER) talent around him just doesn't make much sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 (edited) i threw out 80 as well, as deberg had more attempts that year than montana.i know montana had several years without rice. but he also had like 7 years WITH rice, taylor, craig, walsh, and everyone else. maybe the best collection of offensive talent over a prolonged period the league has ever seen, and montana was at the helm. and yet, in all those seasons joe never had a season over 4000 yards, only had one season over 30 TDs (31 in 87), and so on. to say he'd put up better stats with different (and without question, LESSER) talent around him just doesn't make much sense to me. i am not sure why it's hard to envision more yards and td's with more attempts, downfield weapons, and a "system" that passes more than it runs..... looking back, there were about 3-4 seasons where the 9ers passed more than they ran...... when they became more dominant they passed less and even pulled montana... edit: in marino's tenure in mia, they only ran more than pass 1 year....83..his rookie year. Edited October 22, 2007 by Bier Meister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 He's still only flirting with Brady. Favre is still the trophy wife Favre may be the trophy wife and Madden may be flirting/considering a fling with Brady, but I think he's truly got his eye on Romo to be his mistress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Good point, but Marino didn't have Roger Craig or, for that matter, anything resembling a balanced offense for most of his career. Fouts didn't exactly have a stellar running game either, and neither of those guys had the consistently good defenses that Montana did (which is what REALLY determines championships). I agree with much of what you've posted, but I still think that Montana won more than those other three mostly because his teams were consistently much better overall. I am MORE than willing to give Walsh credit for being two steps ahead of everyone else - with equal credit going to Montana for damn near flawlessly running his system - to win the '81 title. By the time SF won in '84, they were a well-oiled machine. '88 was more difficult than it should've been - with a healthy Tim Krumrie and Boomer Esiasion (IIRC he was having arm issues) they very well would have lost that game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 I am MORE than willing to give Walsh credit for being two steps ahead of everyone else - with equal credit going to Montana for damn near flawlessly running his system - to win the '81 title. By the time SF won in '84, they were a well-oiled machine. '88 was more difficult than it should've been - with a healthy Tim Krumrie and Boomer Esiasion (IIRC he was having arm issues) they very well would have lost that game. Agreed. That '81 team was not fully-developed and Montana arguably WAS the reason that they won. Geez, how many QBs would've made the perfect throw under pressure immortalized in "The Catch." That said, I think that Joe Cool gets way too much credit for the "well-oiled machine" years. Efficiency and execution under duress made him a great QB, not "winning four Super Bowls", as he sure as heck didn't win them by himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Agreed. That '81 team was not fully-developed and Montana arguably WAS the reason that they won. Geez, how many QBs would've made the perfect throw under pressure immortalized in "The Catch." That said, I think that Joe Cool gets way too much credit for the "well-oiled machine" years. Efficiency and execution under duress made him a great QB, not "winning four Super Bowls", as he sure as heck didn't win them by himself. some of those teams were the best to play the game. so no, i don't think he did it by himself. i really don't think anyone could run that machine the way he did. and in 88-89 i don't believe other qb's could have navigated that final drive. despite what you believe, a lot was in his hands. that efficiency and execution is what leads me to know he picks up rings outside of sf. so situations are pretty hopeless and none of the greats could do much in them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 i really don't think anyone could run that machine the way he did. Well, the 9ers offense was even MORE prolific under Young. And didn't do so bad when guys like Jeff Kemp, Steve Bono, Grbac, and Garcia (who is gutty but flawed) stepped under center. That said, Montana's playoff record is pretty impressive. Of course, slightly less so when you look at SF's playoff results (and Joe God's performances in the games) from 85-87. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Well, the 9ers offense was even MORE prolific under Young. And didn't do so bad when guys like Jeff Kemp, Steve Bono, Grbac, and Garcia (who is gutty but flawed) stepped under center. i know this is a long thread, but i have stated several times that i would have loved see joe qb the team more under seifert and shanny, when the all pieces were in place. i think seifert/shanny were more aggressive. That said, Montana's playoff record is pretty impressive. Of course, slightly less so when you look at SF's playoff results (and Joe God's performances in the games) from 85-87. i remember him hitting rice for what should have been a td, but fumbled...then getting injured by burt... and a terrible game vs min by the whole team. 14-5 in playoffs as a 9er..... just can't be perfect. 39-17 td/int vs those defenses is pretty impressive imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Don't get me wrong - the 85-87 comment is just my bit to remind people of the old "Michael Jordan has made 500 game winning shots...and missed 700" or whatever it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Don't get me wrong - the 85-87 comment is just my bit to remind people of the old "Michael Jordan has made 500 game winning shots...and missed 700" or whatever it was. was in the middle of checking young's stats.. just figured i'd post em.... again... more attempts, system was well in place, rice in his prime, some ricky watters, some hearst, getting a little TO..... 8-6 in postseason, 1 championship thanks to defensive mercenaries. 19/12 td/int Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 But if you can throw TDs but not be clutch and win the Superbowl, are you still good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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