Caveman_Nick Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Seriously.........When the "Brady is the bestest QB ever" conversations start, I am among the first to roll my eyes. It's such a dumb discussion because it's something that is beyond direct measure. That said.... But as with most great teams, the system is greater than the player. You could just as easily plug Jeff Garcia and Galloway into the Brady / Moss roles, and this team would likely not miss a beat. JMO, but that might be the dumbest thing I have ever seen written at The Huddle. But.........I figured that I would bring it up here so you could defend the statement. If you get the chance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 :pissingsmilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 :pissingsmilie: This would be a good graemlin for that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rattsass Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 It means just what it said. And the two statements are mutually exclusive. The Brady is the greatest quarterback ever talk has begun. And his numbers justify that. You could plug Garcia and Galloway into that system, and they would still be pounding opponents every week. I think the point I was trying to make is, lets give the system some credit. Lets not give it all to Brady. Not difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cre8tiff Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Can't we all just get along? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Pimp Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Can't we all just get along? Yeah, that would be great fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share Posted October 17, 2007 Yeah, that would be great fun. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rattsass Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 I don't see anything dumb about the statement at all. Plug two competent players into the Brady and Moss spots and you still have the best team in the league. They are just that much better than everybody else. Except maybe the Colts. Maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share Posted October 17, 2007 It means just what it said. And the two statements are mutually exclusive. The Brady is the greatest quarterback ever talk has begun. And his numbers justify that. You could plug Garcia and Galloway into that system, and they would still be pounding opponents every week. I think the point I was trying to make is, lets give the system some credit. Lets not give it all to Brady. Not difficult. Not difficult, but not too accurate either. When will people learn to look at history and take it for what it is? Brady is what makes that system work. How else did he lead the NFL in TD passes in 2002 throwing to Troy Brown and David Patten? How else did the team make the AFC Championship game with Reche Caldwell and Jabbar Gaffney as it's starting flankers in 2006? How else is he on pace to toss more TD passes than anyone else in history for a single season in the first year he has an actual WR corps. This is because of the system? There's a grand total of one other QB in the league that I think could execute that offense close to and/or at the level Brady is, and that's P Manning. I dunno about the best ever discussion. Way to premature for me. I understand why it is happening, and that part of what you said is not bothersome....I just don't agree at this point. But to say that you could plug anyone into that QB position and it would keep rolling is giving way too much credit to "the system". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share Posted October 17, 2007 (edited) One more thing.... Galloway isn't half the player Moss is, and Garcia isn't half the player Brady is. Take away any team's top 2 players on one side of the ball and replace them with "lunch pail" or slightly above level players, and that team will suffer greatly. EDIT: The Colts offense is greatly refined thanks to the consistency of Tom Moore, P Manning, M Harrison, and the O-Line personnel. Would that offense keep rolling if you took away Manning and Harrison and plugged in Garcia and Galloway? Edited October 17, 2007 by Caveman_Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menudo Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Not difficult, but not too accurate either. When will people learn to look at history and take it for what it is? Brady is what makes that system work. How else did he lead the NFL in TD passes in 2002 throwing to Troy Brown and David Patten? How else did the team make the AFC Championship game with Reche Caldwell and Jabbar Gaffney as it's starting flankers in 2006? How else is he on pace to toss more TD passes than anyone else in history for a single season in the first year he has an actual WR corps. This is because of the system? There's a grand total of one other QB in the league that I think could execute that offense close to and/or at the level Brady is, and that's P Manning. I dunno about the best ever discussion. Way to premature for me. I understand why it is happening, and that part of what you said is not bothersome....I just don't agree at this point. But to say that you could plug anyone into that QB position and it would keep rolling is giving way too much credit to "the system". As a well known Patriots-Disliker , I'm in 100% agreement with you. Brady and Manning are on a level far above the other QB's in the league. Trying to give a system credit for what Brady has done and is doing is completely unfair, imho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rattsass Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 There is no need to dig deep into the semantics pool here. Brady is good, may be one of the greatest. I think he is getting a little too much credit, and the team around him is not getting enough. The guy has barely been touched this season, the offensive line is pushing people around. Bottom line Brady gettin too much love - team around him not gettin enough. Can we stop all this Patriots talk? I devoted almost an entire column to them, and I already feel dirty. This thread is not helping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 (edited) How else did the team make the AFC Championship game with Reche Caldwell and Jabbar Gaffney as it's starting flankers in 2006? By having the second-best defense (in terms of points allowed) in the league? Watson, Dillon, and Maroney were big reasons last year as well. How else is he on pace to toss more TD passes than anyone else in history for a single season in the first year he has an actual WR corps. I agree with your overall point, but let's not pretend that Deion Branch and Troy Brown (in his prime) are the same level of crap as Reche Caldwell and Jabbar Gaffney. Branch is easily as good as Stallworth and Welker isn't any better than Brown was five years ago. The major difference is Moss, who is the most physically-talented person to ever play the position and arguably the most dominant WRs of his era. Brady indeed did have an "actual WR corps" back when they were winning SBs, but I agree that Gaffney and especially Caldwell arguably cost them another Lombardi Trophy last season. Edited October 17, 2007 by Bill Swerski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share Posted October 17, 2007 By having the second-best defense (in terms of points allowed) in the league? Watson, Dillon, and Maroney were big reasons last year as well.I agree with your overall point, but let's not pretend that Deion Branch and Troy Brown (in his prime) are the same level of crap as Reche Caldwell and Jabbar Gaffney. Branch is easily as good as Stallworth and Welker isn't any better than Brown was five years ago. The major difference is Moss, who is probably the most physically-talented person to ever play the position. Brady indeed did have an "actual WR corps" back when they were winning SBs, but I agree that Gaffney and especially Caldwell arguably cost them another Lombardi Trophy last season. Note that I did not make references to the seasons in which Branch was a major contributor. I considered Branch to be a "real WR", even if he was flanked by Givens, who people also fail to realize only succeeded because he had a damn good QB getting him the ball accurately. And by God, I am a huge Troy Brown fan, but he has never been worthy of being a #1 WR. He's a terrific slot receiver, and a very reliable possession receiver. He has never had a shred of big play ability. It's a complete farce to try and represent that any team would aspire to have Troy Brown as their top pass catcher, even if every team would want to have him aboard as a reliable role player. Claiming that Brady's success had anything to do with Troy Brown is about as legitimate as attirbuting Manning's success to Brandon Stokely. They are the same player. The defense references also get a little old. You are right in saying that it was a big part of why they got there, but defense alone rarely gets a team there. Not never, but very rarely. And it makes no sense to list that as a reason to mitigate the role of the offense, which if you look at last year was the #7 team in points scored with those same crappy WRs Caldwell and Gaffeny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 (edited) And by God, I am a huge Troy Brown fan, but he has never been worthy of being a #1 WR. He's a terrific slot receiver, and a very reliable possession receiver. He has never had a shred of big play ability. It's a complete farce to try and represent that any team would aspire to have Troy Brown as their top pass catcher, even if every team would want to have him aboard as a reliable role player. Claiming that Brady's success had anything to do with Troy Brown is about as legitimate as attirbuting Manning's success to Brandon Stokely. They are the same player. And like Stokley in his prime (with the Ravens), Brown was a solid #2 option in his. Brown was a lot like Bobby Engram: perhaps better-used in the slot, but he would consistently out-perform the guy in front of him on the depth chart. So I would say that having a combo of Branch and Brown wasn't really that bad. It's lot like what Seattle has now in Branch and Engram (although Burleson is probably better than Givens). The defense references also get a little old. You are right in saying that it was a big part of why they got there, but defense alone rarely gets a team there. Not never, but very rarely. And it makes no sense to list that as a reason to mitigate the role of the offense, which if you look at last year was the #7 team in points scored with those same crappy WRs Caldwell and Gaffeny. Well, defense and special teams are undoubtedly what got them the championship in SB 36. The '01 Pats leaned VERY heavily on that defense, much in the same way that the '00 Ravens and '02 Bucs did. But after that, yes, Brady's ability to get great results out of average-to-above-average WR talent (as all HOF QBs do) was HUGH... and dare I say NECESSARY for those other two rings. With their secondary breaking down in the 4th quarter of SB 38, Brady stepped up and earned that SB MVP. Edited October 17, 2007 by Bill Swerski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share Posted October 17, 2007 So I would say that having a combo of Branch and Brown wasn't really that bad. It's lot like what Seattle has now in Branch and Engram (although Burleson is probably better than Givens). Prior to this year, Branch and Brown was his best receiver combination, and that was in 2003. And it's still not all that good.... Anyways, the main point here is that IMO there is no chance this offense is putting up anywhere near to 38 PPG -brady, moss and +garcia, galloway. The step down is so big. I see that as replacing LT and Gates with Crumpler and McGahee. Where is SD if you make that talent substitution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Anyways, the main point here is that IMO there is no chance this offense is putting up anywhere near to 38 PPG -brady, moss and +garcia, galloway. The step down is so big. I agree that Ratteree (whose columns I like, BTW) made a massive exaggeration there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 I considered Branch to be a "real WR", So do I, especially after watching the Hawks passing game sputter after he got hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikesVikes Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Maybe we should all just choose sides and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share Posted October 17, 2007 Maybe we should all just choose sides and move on. Uh-oh....the fun police showed up.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsmayes Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 This is the kind of outrageous statement that sports radio guys make solely to wrangle up some callers. If you switch in players like Garcia and Galloway for Brady and Moss, the Pats would probably still make playoffs on the strength of the defense. But to say they would still be dominate or even a real Super Bowl contender is asinine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Pimp Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 This is the kind of outrageous statement that sports radio guys make solely to wrangle up some callers. If you switch in players like Garcia and Galloway for Brady and Moss, the Pats would probably still make playoffs on the strength of the defense. But to say they would still be dominate or even a real Super Bowl contender is asinine. Or the fact that as of right now they have a 5 game lead in the division after week 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikesVikes Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Uh-oh....the fun police showed up.... Lol Ok all this talk and I decided to check out what all the fuss was about. Now that's a bigger slam than what you just said, Caveman. I haven't read it yet. You have. "The Patriots are teflon. " I agree 100%. More than 100%. "I am in mourning this morning." This obviously is correct as well. "People are crowning Tom Brady the greatest QB in history, and his stats so far this season justify that thinking." Ok so far. "But as with most great teams, the system is greater than the player." Yep the system where all players come to and the only requirement is that they must have a white picket fence in their backyard. True. "You could just as easily plug Jeff Garcia and Galloway into the Brady / Moss roles, and this team would likely not miss a beat. " Ok. I got to draw the line somewhere. I'll go with here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsmayes Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Or the fact that as of right now they have a 5 game lead in the division after week 6. Any halfway decent team would make the playoffs given that kind of lead. I'm talking about if the Pats started off the season with Garcia and Galloway...and weren't in that god awful division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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