Why can't I put Brady in the same league as Peyton?

[Doc Holliday]

Both are great QB's who we are lucky to be watching.

 

That being said, IMO Manning is not only the best QB playing but maybe the best ever. There is Manning ,who calls his own plays..then there is 31 other starting QB's who get the plays from the sidelines.

[PatsPatsPats]

I just want to chime in here, I am a pats fan and have been watching Brady since the day he came in when Bledsoe got knocked into next week. I think straight up talent Peyton is the better QB just arm strength and overall understanding of the game. Peyton is a pedigree and has more pass attempts, more wins, more yardage, more touchdowns and more accolades in his career as a whole dating back to college.

 

But Brady is just a winner, he clearly has an intangable to get it done during a big game and Brady has time and time again proven to be a far better clutch performer, let's look at the facts....

 

Brady at Michigan won 20 out of 25

 

Peyton won 32 out of 35 on the surface this looks great but a couple of things to be considered, in Peytons career he could not win the big games, never being able to beat florida the division rival, the SEC was weak back then as well and they were blown out by Nebraska in the Orange bowl, on top of that they won a championship the year after he was gone with what was not thought to of been as good a team.

 

Brady on the other hand led Michigan to an overtime win in the Orange Bowl.

 

Peytons rookie season he broke records, Brady's rookie season they won the super bowl and were 14 point underdogs. Driving his team down the field on the closing drive to set them up for a field goal.

 

2003 super bowl mvp with 354 yards and 3 td's

 

2004 Beat pittsburgh after having a 103 temp and led his team on to beat philly in the super bowl

 

In 7 years he has 77 wins in 14 playoff games he has 12 wins.

 

It's to be noted that Brady did all of this with recievers who have done nothing anywhere else, Branch has some star charachteristics but let's get real would Troy Brown be a star anywhere, David Patten, David Givens, how about last year when he almost did it single handedly with Jabar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell?!

 

Now let's look at Peytons big games...

 

1999 after the colts go 13-3 Manning completes 19-43 and they lose to Tennesee.

 

2000 stacked with james and harrison manning throws for another 4000+ but blow a 14 point lead and lose in overtime to the Dolphins

 

2002 welcome Reggie Wayne another stud, Peyton and the colts get blown out 41-0 by the jets in the first round and manning throws for under 200 with 2 picks.

 

2004 a 20-3 demolishing by the pats, Peyton doesn't even get on the board.

 

2005 Getting closer and pulls out a good game with 290 and a TD but still comes out short against Pitt in the divisional playoffs.

 

2006 Gotta give it to him, he pulled the monkey off his back and came through in fashion that he should have given his talents.

 

Going into 2005 Peyton was 0-7 at Foxboro.

 

Again I think Peyton is amazing and I think he has an incredible football mind but I still think at the end of the day Brady will go down as a better QB which I think is evident with the talent surrounding him, Brady has made stars of his players who leave and look like crap.

 

I am a homer and clearly biased but I think it's important to review the facts and then discuss and based on what I see here the edge goes to Brady as a complete QB.

 

Carry on

[Chief]

you have to be kidding me. for years everyone wondered what brady could do if he had receivers like manning. this year he finally does and he is head and shouders better than manning.

the only thing that manning beats brady at is the amount of commercials he does!

 

 

+1

[SF409ers]

 

Wow. I have no Idea what you are thinking....

 

All NFL teams have hugh playbooks.

 

As an Indy fan I would think you would know that Indy runs a base personnell group up and down the field. Mostly the same people all the time. Sure, the receivers line up in different spots and run different routes, etc. Sure, their offense isn't "simple". I never said it was.

 

I said it was much simpler than the Patriots offense.

 

The Patriots use 3-4 RBs in different combos, 4 WRs with regularity in different combinations, 3 TE's interchangeably, and they do this on pretty much any down and distance up and down the field.

 

Indy's strength on offense is in consistency and execution. The Patriots strength stems much more from defenses never knowing what the heck they are going to do.

Yes it's physically difficult, and anytime you put additional responsibility on a player the way they do with Manning, it is mentally taxing. But their offense isn't overly complex and tricky, at least in games I have seen. They just flat out beat the other teams with talent and execution. Peyton puts the ball in the perfect spot, and the receivers catch it. No tricks, just greatness of execution.

 

[Gdawg]

Brady is better. My hatred of the Colts aside, I can't see Manning getting his team within a whisker of a SB with the crap that Brady had at WR last year.

 

This is not a knock on Manning. I'd say the two are within 1% of each other. Despire my absolute disdain of everything and all things Colt, I respect and admire Manning for his talent. Having said the aforementioned, I think that Brady is SLIGHTLY, ever so slightly better.

[Sgt. Ryan]

How many fewer TDs would Brady have it he didnt just throw the ball up and let Moss make a play and bring it in. Id say at least 8 fewer. How many fewer TDs would Brady have if Moss didnt attract double coverage literally leaving Welker free to roam, probably 5 fewer. What Moss brings to the table as a WR and a decoy is completely being overshadowed by Brady just chunking it deep to him, and him making the play on the ball. You take Moss of the Pats, and I truely believe they average at least 10 pts fewer a game, which is still incredible, and Brady has half as many Passing TDs, and no one is arguing he is better than Manning. As great as harrison and wayne are, they have no where near the talent of Moss. Indy also runs the ball almost 50% of the time, compared the NE less than 15% of the time. The stats are definately skewed this yr. And finally, how many of those big games would Brady have won, if the NE D wasnt one of the best in the NFL, as compared to Manning having nothing at D, until the playoffs last yr. This isnt even an argument, when you put all the facts on the table. Brady is great, Manning is simply better.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Sgt. Ryan

[ROYALWITCHEESE]

How many fewer TDs would Brady have it he didnt just throw the ball up and let Moss make a play and bring it in. Id say at least 8 fewer. How many fewer TDs would Brady have if Moss didnt attract double coverage literally leaving Welker free to roam, probably 5 fewer. What Moss brings to the table as a WR and a decoy is completely being overshadowed by Brady just chunking it deep to him, and him making the play on the ball. You take Moss of the Pats, and I truely believe they average at least 10 pts fewer a game, which is still incredible, and Brady has half as many Passing TDs, and no one is arguing he is better than Manning. As great as harrison and wayne are, they have no where near the talent of Moss. Indy also runs the ball almost 50% of the time, compared the NE less than 15% of the time. The stats are definately skewed this yr. And finally, how many of those big games would Brady have won, if the NE D wasnt one of the best in the NFL, as compared to Manning having nothing at D, until the playoffs last yr. This isnt even an argument, when you put all the facts on the table. Brady is great, Manning is simply better.

 

 

LOL What a flip-flop by Manning backers. Before the season, every Colts homer on this board would argue to no end how Marvin is better than Randy. Now Brady is having a great year just because of Moss??!! How ridiculous! What would that say about Manning, since Marv is the "better receiver"? Not to mention Reggie Wayne is the #2 and light years better than any #1 that Brady has ever had. And Manning has had a better running back in EVERY season.

 

An argument in which one is a lesser QB due of the talent around him is NOT going in Manning's favor, no matter how you slice it. And it is not even close...

 

I, personally, like them both and think it is impossible to tell who is better until their careers are complete. Having said that, in a big game with all the chips on the table, give me Brady...

[xMRogers]

Reading all this and thinking about it pretty simply: Peyton Manning is probably to date the best "model" of a QB ever. Tom Brady is a better football player than Peyton Manning.

 

Yes, I could explain what I mean by that, but it's late.

 

They are 1/2 regardless of ways of looking at it, and (almost) everyone would answer these two questions the same:

 

- All else equal, I have to win one and only one game, already have the other 52 guys - who am I taking at starting QB?

 

- I'm starting a team, and starting with the most impt position of QB - who is it (throw out age/years left)?

 

Majority of people would say Brady for 1, Manning for 2 and be "right". It's definitely a great debate - it's Montana-Marino/Elway, except at end of day possibly at a "higher" level.

 

BTW, heard a stat tonight - when Roger Staubach retired, he was he all time career passer rating leader....with an 83

 

83 now gets you benched.

[BeeR]

I think brady gets an awful lot of credit for being a good game manager on the best team in football, but manning is the best qb. Before this season who did everyone think was the best qb? Most everyone would say manning because he finally won the big one. That was the only thing keeping people from saying it before. Brady rating goes up because of his 3 super bowls, but who is to say that the patriots wouldn't of won with bledsoe.

Some of NE homers and/or assorted Manning haters are setting new records for stupidity in this thread, but I'll easily say that NE wouldn't have won the SB with Bledsoe. In fact as I recall they were 0-2 with him before he got hurt and were looking pretty pathetic. Give credit where it's due. Brady is damn good.

 

That being said, IMO Manning is not only the best QB playing but maybe the best ever.

I know I shouldn't even get into this sidetrack, but even Manning would at that. He's up there for sure, as is Brady, but talk to me 5-10 yrs after they've retired - it's too easy to throw that kind of thing at guys we see playing every Sunday vs guys who haven't been on the field for years, if not decades (why do you think there's a waiting period to get into the HoF, although IMO that's becoming a joke anyway). PS Manning "more or less" calls his own plays, ie he gets 3 in from the OC and chooses one. Granted he audibles a lot too, but it's still not the same as guys like Unitas who called their own plays, period.

 

 

I am a homer and clearly biased but I think it's important to review the facts and then discuss and based on what I see here the edge goes to Brady as a complete QB.

More like Brady is a QB who has played on the most complete teams.

 

Granted QBs are the most important single position on a team, but like most people discussing this topic, you conveniently forget that TEAMS win games and titles, not one guy. lol @ people going "Brady won these SBs" (or similar w/Manning). No, NE and IND won those titles. Without that sudden and improbable turnaround on the D, the Colts would not have won the title last year. And on the whole, NE has had a clearly superior overall team than IND. I wonder how many SBs the Manning-led Colts would've won with NE's D and coaches.

Edited October 27, 2007 by BeeR

[Swiss Cheezhead]

First, excellent initial post, Loogie. Good points and well articulated.

 

Second, Caveman Nick is DEAD-ON right about Indy's offense (and I'm surprised Hook hasn't gotten his back yet). All NFL offenses could be called "complex." But, relative to other schemes, Indy's is rather simple. I couldn't provide links to quotes or anything, but I've heard/read/seen several times over the years Colts players and coaches preaching that the secret to their offensive success is repetition and perfect execution.

 

They've identified the strengths of their offensive players, and they've built plays around them. Then, they practice those plays over and over and over.

 

Manning and his WRs beat defenses consistently because of near-flawless timing, rhythm and chemistry. That's not scheme; it's talent + drive + practice.

[Swiss Cheezhead]

Oh -- I forgot my third point...

 

Only in America/Disfunction Whatever -- you need to know when to realize you got caught talking out of your ass. At this point, no one would blame you for not posting in this thread again.

[Clubfoothead]

Meh.

 

I'd take Tony Romo over either of them.

[PatsPatsPats]

Granted QBs are the most important single position on a team, but like most people discussing this topic, you conveniently forget that TEAMS win games and titles, not one guy. lol @ people going "Brady won these SBs" (or similar w/Manning). No, NE and IND won those titles. Without that sudden and improbable turnaround on the D, the Colts would not have won the title last year. And on the whole, NE has had a clearly superior overall team than IND. I wonder how many SBs the Manning-led Colts would've won with NE's D and coaches.

 

I agree with this whole heartedly, we're leaving Def and Coach out of the conversation and I think Belichick and his supporting cast over the years as a whole as been more effective at creating schemes on both sides of the ball.

 

But Brady in many ways has found a way to light up people for 300+ yards out of no where with no one when it counts, Manning has never done that. Manning lights people up for 300 hundred weekly but when a tough game comes around he has folded 90% of the time.

 

3 Super Bowls later and 2 Super Bowl MVP's and a an angry competitor (unlike Peyton and there's no arguing that!) I'd rather have Brady behind center.

 

All biases aside I want to ask a serious question to Indy homers/Peyton fans....do you like his calm cool logical perspective? I'd love to see Peyton get so pissed that veins start popping out of his neck and throw his helmet or attack a lineman or something, Brady scores a TD and he almost knocks on the guy on the recieving end he's so pumped up. In Boston that's the difference between JD Drew and a guy like Pedrioa or Trot Nixon they play ball so hard and with so much fire even though they might not have the same god given talent. Just wondering?

[CaptainHook]

But Brady in many ways has found a way to light up people for 300+ yards out of no where with no one when it counts, Manning has never done that. Manning lights people up for 300 hundred weekly but when a tough game comes around he has folded 90% of the time.

This is such an ignorant statement, it doesn't even need a response.

 

All biases aside I want to ask a serious question to Indy homers/Peyton fans....do you like his calm cool logical perspective? I'd love to see Peyton get so pissed that veins start popping out of his neck and throw his helmet or attack a lineman or something, Brady scores a TD and he almost knocks on the guy on the recieving end he's so pumped up. In Boston that's the difference between JD Drew and a guy like Pedrioa or Trot Nixon they play ball so hard and with so much fire even though they might not have the same god given talent. Just wondering?

I've seen Peyton fired up plenty of times. I've seen him chew out a guys ass on the field and on the sideline. And I've seen Peyton celebrate plenty. You are not well informed.

[PatsPatsPats]

This is such an ignorant statement, it doesn't even need a response.

I've seen Peyton fired up plenty of times. I've seen him chew out a guys ass on the field and on the sideline. And I've seen Peyton celebrate plenty. You are not well informed.

 

You must of missed my last post....I'll go ahead and put it back out there for you again. Because "ignorance is an uninformed statement and when actual facts are behind a statement I think it'd be safe to say they're not ignorant....Please inform me as to what big games I missed? In regards to my perception of Peyton being calm, cool and collected I apologize for my presumption around that topic because yes I didn't know that he runs around fired up getting in people's faces that's why it was in the form of a question, don't be so sensitive. It's football buddy.

 

2003 super bowl mvp with 354 yards and 3 td's

 

2004 Beat pittsburgh after having a 103 temp and led his team on to beat philly in the super bowl

 

In 7 years he has 77 wins in 14 playoff games he has 12 wins.

 

It's to be noted that Brady did all of this with recievers who have done nothing anywhere else, Branch has some star charachteristics but let's get real would Troy Brown be a star anywhere, David Patten, David Givens, how about last year when he almost did it single handedly with Jabar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell?!

 

Now let's look at Peytons big games...

 

1999 after the colts go 13-3 Manning completes 19-43 and they lose to Tennesee.

 

2000 stacked with james and harrison manning throws for another 4000+ but blow a 14 point lead and lose in overtime to the Dolphins

 

2002 welcome Reggie Wayne another stud, Peyton and the colts get blown out 41-0 by the jets in the first round and manning throws for under 200 with 2 picks.

 

2004 a 20-3 demolishing by the pats, Peyton doesn't even get on the board.

 

2005 Getting closer and pulls out a good game with 290 and a TD but still comes out short against Pitt in the divisional playoffs.

 

2006 Gotta give it to him, he pulled the monkey off his back and came through in fashion that he should have given his talents.

 

Going into 2005 Peyton was 0-7 at Foxboro.

[CaptainHook]

Now let's look at Peytons big games...

 

1999 after the colts go 13-3 Manning completes 19-43 and they lose to Tennesee.

19-43 for 227 yards, no picks, and a rushing TD in his first play-off game? In his second season in the league? The Colts were 3-13 before they brought in Manning. And in his second year, he takes them to a bye in the play-offs. The Colts were so out of their league that year. He didn't have great game, but they were in the game.

 

2000 stacked with james and harrison manning throws for another 4000+ but blow a 14 point lead and lose in overtime to the Dolphins

Manning was 17/32 fro 194 yards and a TD. No picks. Has Brady historically struggled with the Dolphins?

 

No matter, if you watched this game, you would know who lost it. The Colts D. Lamar Smith (who?) had 209 yards rushing and the Colts D couldn't hold a fourth quarter lead.

2002 welcome Reggie Wayne another stud, Peyton and the colts get blown out 41-0 by the jets in the first round and manning throws for under 200 with 2 picks.

Uh, Wayne was a rookie. His totals for the year? 27 catches for 345 yards. wow.

 

Once again, did you watch this game? Jets sore first TD, 7-0. Manning leads Colts into FG range, Vandy misses. Jets take over and kick a FG, 10-0. Wilikins fumbles the next kick-off, Jets take over and score another TD, 17-0. The Colts receivers dropped to many passes to count. The whole team gave up except Manning. He was so pissed. And his picks didn't come until the fourth quarter.

 

2004 a 20-3 demolishing by the pats, Peyton doesn't even get on the board.

I will agree here. A bad game all around. But I seem to remember Brady having a bad day in Denver a couple years ago. Funny how you leave that out. What was it? 4 picks?

 

Funny that you also leave out Manning's big games against Denver twice, KC twice, Baltimore, LAST YEARS AFC CHAMPIONSHIP, and the SB. You are just ignorant, plain and simple.

[keggerz]

there is no better QB then GOD BRADY

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

oh and

Edited October 27, 2007 by keggerz

[PatsPatsPats]

"2006 Gotta give it to him, he pulled the monkey off his back and came through in fashion that he should have given his talents"

 

Sorry you missed that in both posts.

 

That's a lot of excuses for a lot of losses. Brady's lost 2 playoff games and as a Rookie won the super bowl. With who Antowain Smith?!

 

You can keep name calling but it doesn't help your cause in trying to convince people that I'm ignorant. Little bit of an irony there.

[keggerz]

i was just thinking about something after reading a post in this thread.....I dont think I have ever seen manning just chuck up a pass "hoping" his WR would come down with it.

 

I could be wrong but i honestly dont ever remember that

[CaptainHook]

"2006 Gotta give it to him, he pulled the monkey off his back and came through in fashion that he should have given his talents"

 

Sorry you missed that in both posts.

 

That's a lot of excuses for a lot of losses. Brady's lost 2 playoff games and as a Rookie won the super bowl. With who Antowain Smith?!

 

You can keep name calling but it doesn't help your cause in trying to convince people that I'm ignorant. Little bit of an irony there.

Um no. Brady was not a rookie. (like i said, ignorant) And he inherited a much better team than Peyton did. Peyton had to earn it. Brady was lucky enough to get put into a position where he could just not screw up and still win the SB.

Edited October 27, 2007 by CaptainHook

[PatsPatsPats]

Sorry your right Brady was not a Rookie it was just his first year "playing" in the league you got me on that one. You really do know alot about football.

 

This is all a lot of noise considering we're playing next week. See you then.

[CaptainHook]

Sorry your right Brady was not a Rookie it was just his first year "playing" in the league you got me on that one. You really do know alot about football.

you don't.

[Puddy]

I long for the Barry is better than Emmitt threads...

[Grosse Pointe Gridder]

Let me guess....one is in the AFC and one is in the NFC?

 

[gilwiggum]

As a PATS fan, I would like to think Brady is better than Manning, but I am not sure he is. Sure he has 2 more SB rings, but thatis a team effort, and I think if Peyton had the PATS defense in the past he could have those rings too. Right now Brady is having a great season, so I think people are getting caught up in that. This is one great season though, hopefully one of many, so it is a bad time to judge. Kurt Warner had 2 great seasons and disappeared. Let's enjoy Peyton and Brady while we can and table this discussion for 10 years from now.

 

That being said however I would sway my vote to Brady for this reason. I do not recall Brady having such a terrible ame that jeopardized his team in a playoff game. I've seen Peyton throw 3 picks against the PATS to Ty Law. Now this could be selective memory, but it's that kind of game that I think seperates Brady from Manning. Can anyone think of a game where Brady totally tanked, Denver perhaps?

 

Either way, I enjoy watching them both play because I think they are head and shoulders above any competition right now and I cannot wait for their matchup next week, hopefully Marvin will be on his game and they can shoot it out.