Why can't I put Brady in the same league as Peyton?

[Big John]

Let me guess....one is in the AFC and one is in the NFC?

 

Both in the AFC

[CaptainHook]

That being said however I would sway my vote to Brady for this reason. I do not recall Brady having such a terrible ame that jeopardized his team in a playoff game. I've seen Peyton throw 3 picks against the PATS to Ty Law. Now this could be selective memory, but it's that kind of game that I think seperates Brady from Manning. Can anyone think of a game where Brady totally tanked, Denver perhaps?

link

[Bill Swerski]

 

Wow. I have no Idea what you are thinking....

 

All NFL teams have hugh playbooks.

 

As an Indy fan I would think you would know that Indy runs a base personnell group up and down the field. Mostly the same people all the time. Sure, the receivers line up in different spots and run different routes, etc. Sure, their offense isn't "simple". I never said it was.

 

I said it was much simpler than the Patriots offense.

 

The Patriots use 3-4 RBs in different combos, 4 WRs with regularity in different combinations, 3 TE's interchangeably, and they do this on pretty much any down and distance up and down the field.

 

Indy's strength on offense is in consistency and execution. The Patriots strength stems much more from defenses never knowing what the heck they are going to do.

Yes it's physically difficult, and anytime you put additional responsibility on a player the way they do with Manning, it is mentally taxing. But their offense isn't overly complex and tricky, at least in games I have seen. They just flat out beat the other teams with talent and execution. Peyton puts the ball in the perfect spot, and the receivers catch it. No tricks, just greatness of execution.

 

 

I still don't see how the Pats offense is that much more complex than Indy's. Outside of their blocking schemes (Indy is always in zone, except for a few short-yardage packages), I don't think that's true at all. The Colts' "base" two-TE, one-RB set changes drastically over the course of a game. They've been regularly using 3-WR sets since the Stokley era (and even sometimes back when Troy Walters was there), they use bunch sets often, and even 4-WR sets on occasion (although they typically favor their TEs over Moorehead). They regularly use three TEs throughout the game (Clark, Fletcher, and Utect), and the former often lines up in the slot or even at flanker on occasion. They've been using two or three different halfbacks per game since the Edgerrin years and have defensive tackles lining up at fullback. So, outside of the linemen, you're not always seeing the same people on the field all of the time. The exception is when they're running the hurry-up, which isn't all of the time. Often times, they'll interrupt the hurry-up just to put new bodies on the field. I don't know if their packages are as extensive as NE's, but they have as many plays as anybody and I'm sure that no other team's receivers, TEs, or halfbacks have to memorize more audibles (both via oral and their hand signal equivalents) than Indy's.

 

I'm not saying that one offensive system is more complex than the other, but touting NE's as "much more complex" is kind of silly, IMO.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Bill Swerski

[BeeR]

I agree with this whole heartedly, we're leaving Def and Coach out of the conversation and I think Belichick and his supporting cast over the years as a whole as been more effective at creating schemes on both sides of the ball.

Thanks but after saying this your following posts indicate the exact opposite. Like most Manning bashers, you use stats to try and over-simplify the whole thing (which was pretty well torn apart by cpthook) and again conveniently ignore (among other things) how TEAMS win games, not one guy.

This isn't to take away that Brady is a great QB though.

[hitch]

Um no. Brady was not a rookie. (like i said, ignorant) And he inherited a much better team than Peyton did. Peyton had to earn it. Brady was lucky enough to get put into a position where he could just not screw up and still win the SB.

 

Cmon, now. A much better team? Is there really that big of a difference between a 3-13 team and one that's 5-11? That's like comparing stink to stench. They both reek. Manning's Colts were 3-13 the year prior to his rookie season. They were 3-13 the year of his rookie season. And they then turned it completely around his 2nd year with the addition of Edgerrin James, who led the NFL in rushing. Not a bad addition.

 

Looking at Brady's teams prior to his taking over, its interesting. The Patriots were a team in full, slow decline. In '96, their Superbowl year, they finished 11-5. In '97, they finished 10-6. In '98, 9-7. In '99, 8 wins, 8 losses. See a pattern here?? Finally in 2000, the year Brady was drafted, the New England Patriots finished 5-11, and scored 276 points. The following year, they drafted Richard Seymour with the 6th overall pick, and started 0-2 before Brady started his first game. He led the team to an 11-5 record, scoring 371 points and winning the Superbowl.

 

So looking back, both guys took over struggling teams, and both guys played very well in their 2nd seasons. But Im not about to think that the 5-11 team Brady took over that had regressed for 5 straight years was all of a sudden some kind of Superbowl contender. In 2000, New England's D was ranked 20th overall in yardage allowed at 334.6 The following year, the 1st Brady Superbowl season, they ranked 24th overall at 334.5 Lets keep the #s clean, and remember history for what it actually was.

 

The New England Patriots were a 5-11 team without Brady. WIth Brady, they were World Champions.

Edited October 28, 2007 by hitch

[CaptainHook]

Four years before they drafted Brady, they were in the SUPER BOWL. They had one losing season in the previous 5 years before he was drafted. Yes. A much better team than the Colts were in 1998.

[hitch]

Four years before they drafted Brady, they were in the SUPER BOWL. They had one losing season in the previous 5 years before he was drafted. Yes. A much better team than the Colts were in 1998.

 

Youre reaching here. They were 2 wins better. And the Colts were 9-7 back to back years in '95 and '96, and went to the AFC title game against Pittsburgh one of those years. In '95, I believe. That's 3 years pre-Manning. Like I said, keep it clean.

 

 

Look, Im not arguing that either one is better. Theyre both HOFers.

Edited October 28, 2007 by hitch

[Crazysight]

Um no. Brady was not a rookie. (like i said, ignorant) And he inherited a much better team than Peyton did. Peyton had to earn it. Brady was lucky enough to get put into a position where he could just not screw up and still win the SB.

 

 

HAHAHA!!!!

 

Yeah, Brady inherited a "Great" team! There were plenty of Marvin Harrisons, Marshall Faulks, Edgerrin James and Reggie Wayne's on the team he inherited! That's why it had only won 5 of its last 18 games with Bledsoe behind center!

Where are all the offensive players that he had on his team now? How much success are Troy Brown, David Patten and Antoine Smith having these days?

Edited October 28, 2007 by Crazysight

[Crazysight]

Four years before they drafted Brady, they were in the SUPER BOWL. They had one losing season in the previous 5 years before he was drafted. Yes. A much better team than the Colts were in 1998.

 

 

False. They had won only 5 of their last 18 games, and the only reasons they had won prior were because of players like Curtis Martin, Ben Coates, Terry Glenn, and Drew Bledsoe back when Parcells was ripping him on a daily basis. After Bill left town (along with the other player's mentioned), Bledsoe's performance steadily declined, as did his effort for anybody who saw him throw the season away against Philadelphia when he decided to start leiaurely walking to the line of scrimmage in the final 3 minutes when the Pats were only down by 2 scores.

 

And the only reason they even made the Superbowl way back in 96 is because Denver was upset by Jacksonville. Denver owned New England that year, and had they met in the AFC Championship game Bledsoe's team would have been blown out again. But again, that was way back in 96 and has no bearing on the team Brady inherited in 2001 in the first place.

Edited October 28, 2007 by Crazysight

[ROYALWITCHEESE]

Four years before they drafted Brady, they were in the SUPER BOWL. They had one losing season in the previous 5 years before he was drafted. Yes. A much better team than the Colts were in 1998.

 

Have to disagree here. Four years is an ETERNITY in NFL terms. Of the '96 Patriots: only Bledsoe (no longer starting), Troy Brown, McGinest, Sullivan (backup), Bruschi, Ted Johnson, Law, Milloy, Otis Smith (backup in '01), and Vinatieri remianed in '01. So a total of SIX starters (if you count Johnson as a starter) remained, and TEN total players from the '96 53 man roster. So let's not pretend Brady inherited the '96 NFL runner up as his first team. 5-11 + 0-2 speaks for itself...

[hitch]

Have to disagree here. Four years is an ETERNITY in NFL terms. Of the '96 Patriots: only Bledsoe (no longer starting), Troy Brown, McGinest, Sullivan (backup), Bruschi, Ted Johnson, Law, Milloy, Otis Smith (backup in '01), and Vinatieri remianed in '01. So a total of SIX starters (if you count Johnson as a starter) remained, and TEN total players from the '96 53 man roster. So let's not pretend Brady inherited the '96 NFL runner up as his first team. 5-11 + 0-2 speaks for itself...

 

 

solid insight, RWC. and good luck with tomorrow. should be a good game.

[Bill Swerski]

HAHAHA!!!!

 

Yeah, Brady inherited a "Great" team! There were plenty of Marvin Harrisons, Marshall Faulks, Edgerrin James and Reggie Wayne's on the team he inherited! That's why it had only won 5 of its last 18 games with Bledsoe behind center!

Where are all the offensive players that he had on his team now? How much success are Troy Brown, David Patten and Antoine Smith having these days?

 

Brady did indeed inherit a "great team" in terms of defense and special teams: Law, Milloy, Bruschi, Vrabel, Seymour, McGinest, Ted Johnson, Vinatieri, Troy Brown. That's an outstanding collection of talent. I'm counting two likely HOFers in that bunch and possibly two more. And as they lost some of those players to free agency, they added even more talent: Harrison, Wilfork, Colvin, Samuel, Ted Washington, Keith Traylor, etc. Oh, and one of the greatest defensive minds in the history of the league was running the show. You think that might've helped as well?

 

The team that Brady inherited had vastly more defensive talent than any of Peyton's teams. And defense is what wins Super Bowls.

Edited October 28, 2007 by Bill Swerski

[Sgt. Ryan]

LOL What a flip-flop by Manning backers. Before the season, every Colts homer on this board would argue to no end how Marvin is better than Randy. Now Brady is having a great year just because of Moss??!! How ridiculous! What would that say about Manning, since Marv is the "better receiver"? Not to mention Reggie Wayne is the #2 and light years better than any #1 that Brady has ever had. And Manning has had a better running back in EVERY season.

 

An argument in which one is a lesser QB due of the talent around him is NOT going in Manning's favor, no matter how you slice it. And it is not even close...

 

I, personally, like them both and think it is impossible to tell who is better until their careers are complete. Having said that, in a big game with all the chips on the table, give me Brady...

 

Marvin has never done what Moss is doing right now. 10 TDs in 7 games. Moss helps this offense tremendously, and those who think Brady would be the same Qb without him are clueless. Brady has never put up numbers anywhere close to this before, why is that. Because of Moss. Moss has done this before, and was the best WR in the game, back in Minny, when he cared about football. Marvin is great and is a very professional Wr, with great work ethic, but he pales in comparison to Moss skills.

 

Im not debating which team has more talent around them, what Im saying is Brady has never done what he is doing now, and randy Moss is a very big reason he is having this dream season. Without Moss, this isnt an argument.

 

 

In the Colts/pats last 3 games, and those were big games, who won. How can you say Brady is better in a big game. He hasnt beat Manning in 2.5 years. And in every one of those games, Brady clearly had the better defense. In fact before next week, Manning has had the lesser defense in every meeting vs the Pats since Brady has been a starter. There is a bigger picture here than just Brady vs Manning in the past playoffs as well. If brady had to go against the Pats D and Belicheat all those years, and manning got the Colts D. Brady wouldnt have a single SB, and Manning would have a handful. Manning does more than just line up a run the play signaled in. manning decides the play to run.

 

This is a nice debate, but if 32 GMS were starting an NFL team tomorrow, without knowing what other talent they would have, at least 28 would pick Manning #1 overall. So that should end the debate right there.

Edited October 28, 2007 by Sgt. Ryan

[Puddy]

This is a nice debate, but if 32 GMS were starting an NFL team tomorrow, without knowing what other talent they would have, at least 28 would pick Manning #1 overall. So that should end the debate right there.

 

Link ?

[Sgt. Ryan]

Link ?

 

 

fact

[Puddy]

my misguided opinion which I will argue as fact at all costs.

fixed

[Sgt. Ryan]

fixed

 

 

LMAO, your opinion is your opinion, however wrong it maybe. But if you think for a second Brady would be selected by more NFL GMs if there was an open lottery tomorrow, you have lost all credability. Its my opinion, 28 of 32 would pick Manning, but it very well could be 31 of 32.

[Puddy]

LMAO, your opinion is your opinion, however wrong it maybe. But if you think for a second Brady would be selected by more NFL GMs if there was an open lottery tomorrow, you have lost all credability. Its my opinion, 28 of 32 would pick Manning, but it very well could be 31 of 32.

Thank you.

[Sgt. Ryan]

Thank you.

 

 

[ROYALWITCHEESE]

solid insight, RWC. and good luck with tomorrow. should be a good game.

 

 

I hope so. A win would be great, but even a good showing in that environment could do wonders for the rest of the season...

[LooGie]

What about Mannings "I can't play both sides of the ball" comment?

I think you're talking about Vick. Seriously.

 

LOL What a flip-flop by Manning backers. Before the season, every Colts homer on this board would argue to no end how Marvin is better than Randy. Now Brady is having a great year just because of Moss??!! How ridiculous! What would that say about Manning, since Marv is the "better receiver"? Not to mention Reggie Wayne is the #2 and light years better than any #1 that Brady has ever had. And Manning has had a better running back in EVERY season.

First of all, I don't remember any Colt's homers saying Marvin is better than Moss. If you're speaking hypothetically, well then your point is moot. Very moot, actually.

Secondly, Harrison IS better than Moss, in route running, work ethic, leadership, and class. Moss has athletic ability that is just sick. Probably the most athletically gifted player in the league. He didn't get the nickname "Freak" because he likes halloween. So he beats Marvin in speed and just awesome, stupid athletic giftedness that wows everyone from 6 years old to 60.

And i dont believe there would be any person, even the most homeristic Colt's fan, that would've ever said differently. Even during Randy's OAK days...

 

Also, a "better running back in every season"? Yah Dillon was a real slouch for the Pats...a check collector for sure.

 

First, excellent initial post, Loogie. Good points and well articulated.

[Caveman_Nick]

I'm not saying that one offensive system is more complex than the other, but touting NE's as "much more complex" is kind of silly, IMO.

 

I guess we will just be disagreeing here. I am not on a quest to convince anyone that a no huddle offense that mostly maintains the same personnel within the parameters of a drive so long as play isn't stopped is as complex as a personnel switching, constantly wrinkling offense that changes these things up on pretty much every play.

[Crazysight]

I think you're talking about Vick. Seriously.

First of all, I don't remember any Colt's homers saying Marvin is better than Moss. If you're speaking hypothetically, well then your point is moot. Very moot, actually.

Secondly, Harrison IS better than Moss, in route running, work ethic, leadership, and class. Moss has athletic ability that is just sick. Probably the most athletically gifted player in the league. He didn't get the nickname "Freak" because he likes halloween. So he beats Marvin in speed and just awesome, stupid athletic giftedness that wows everyone from 6 years old to 60.

And i dont believe there would be any person, even the most homeristic Colt's fan, that would've ever said differently. Even during Randy's OAK days...

 

Also, a "better running back in every season"? Yah Dillon was a real slouch for the Pats...a check collector for sure.

 

 

He was only solid for one year though. After that he was frequently injured before retiring altogether. Other than that one season what he says is true.

Edited October 28, 2007 by Crazysight

[Bill Swerski]

I guess we will just be disagreeing here. I am not on a quest to convince anyone that a no huddle offense that mostly maintains the same personnel within the parameters of a drive so long as play isn't stopped is as complex as a personnel switching, constantly wrinkling offense that changes these things up on pretty much every play.

 

Um, if you want to believe that the Colts never substitute players, that's fine. The truth is that they regularly use three different TEs (one of whom plays the "Y" and "Z" receiver positions) and have been running a quasi-RBBC for the past year and a half, often switching out backs in the middle of drives. They also use more audibles (and their hand-signal equivalents on the road) than any other team and have been known to MAKE UP plays in the huddle (as Hook described Peyton and Fletcher doing in last season's AFC Championship Game). Peyton and Marvin often communicate at the line by simply looking at each other in a certain way. I'd say that's one of the more complex passing games in the league. All of the Colts offensive players (and especially the skill-position players) have one thing in common: none of them are knuckleheads. Regardless of their athletic talent, Polian doesn't draft lazy and/or dumb offensive players because they're too much of a liability. And if somebody like Anthony Gonzalez had difficulty learning their playbook this summer, I can assure you that the offense is plenty "complex."

 

The one area where I agree with you is their running game. It's almost all zone-blocking and about 75% of it is the "stretch play." They definitely do dumb that down.

Edited October 28, 2007 by Bill Swerski

[Puddy]

bump