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January 26, 1986


Caveman_Nick
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I remember the year leading up to Superbowl XX in the NFL mainly for 2 reasons. First, even though I had known a little bit about the Pats, it was the year that I became a football fan. It was a great year in Boston sports, and I was already a big Celtic fan. I paid a little bit of attention to the Bruins, and started paying attention to baseball as well. Up until that '85 season I had only really paid close attention to basketball. So this season of Patriots football was kind of a trial by fire season, trying to keep up with the craziness of it all. The second reason was litstening to people constantly bashing Tony Eason. I didn't really understand why. I didn't know as much about the game then and could only really see that Eason had quarterbacked the team into the Superbowl What was so bad about that? These days I would recommend someone asking the same question to ask that question of Rex Grossman, if they could find him hiding in the corner of a Chicago dive bar wishing he could smuggle a bottle of Grey Goose into Brian Greise's locker without getting intercepted by security on his way there.

 

That season was fun for me, up until the Superbowl actually began and I saw what was among the worst beatings I ever saw a football team take. Superbowl XX was painful to watch as a Pats fan. It started out great after the Franklin field goal and a nice, cushy 3-0 lead. Unfortunately the Pats would not see another scoring opportunity until the 4th quarter in complete garbage time. That team was dominated like a willing slave to a 6' tall leatherclad mistress with a whip fettish. It was like the Patriots offense was running into a stone wall all day, managing 7 yards of rushing offense for the game and giving up 7 sacks, including a Safety to the Bears D. The first half after that FG was a nightmare. from Wiki:

 

The Bears had absolutely dominated New England in the first half, holding them to 21 offensive plays (only 4 of which resulted in positive yardage), -19 total offensive yards, 2 pass completions, 1 first down, and 3 points. Meanwhile, Chicago gained 236 yards and scored 23 points themselves.

 

That game set some expectations for me in terms of what I expect from football teams on the field. That is show up and play like you deserve to be on the field or don't show up at all.

 

As a 14 year old kid, I never complained about the game. I sat stunned watching how good the Bears were. I wasn't happy, and maybe even allowed myself to stray into the slightly depressed zone for 3 or 4 minutes. But I realized that it was just a game, and a professional game. I have never, not on that day or since, complained about the excellence of a professional sports team save perhaps to my Red Sox buddies and then admittedly out of jealousy of the Damn Yankees (Funny thing to write today :D ). And even then I was just frustrated by how good they were and never thought that they should try to be 'less good' or not put in a complete effort for all 27 outs. I just wanted my Red Sox to be better.

 

I expect every professional sports team to give it their all for the entire game they play. The only time I will complain about this is when a team gives less. It's why we buy tickets, and watch and support teams.

 

I don't have the time or inclination to go respond to all of the threads regarding the Patriots and their 'scoring when they aren't supposed to', or whatever the heck people are trying to argue. The fact is that they are playing excellent football for 60 minutes every game, and I am happy because it is what I expect a team that I am a fan of and support to do when I invest my time and money into them. How can anyone expect less?

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It's a fine line. It's why you don't try to steal 2nd when you're up by 10 runs in the 8th. It's why the guy at the plate is likely to get a free bag courtesy a fastball to the hip if you do. Of course, that's pretty much the only way a baseball team can be accused of "running up the score". Everything else is just execution. Guys are going to try to hit the ball every at bat and they should. Because offense and defense are totally separate in baseball.

 

Football is another story. There's a manner in which you can play the game that falls between taking a knee and throwing the ball all around the field. Those who support the play of the Patriots are quick to assume that everyone else is saying they should have packed it in for the second half. I'm not saying the players shouldn't still execute their assignments, I'm saying perhaps their assignments should have been to run the ball between the tackles and take some time off the clock. Not practice the two minute drill. That is the issue many of us have.

 

McBoog brought this up regarding the Charger's game. Up 35-0 at the half, they pounded the rock, started pulling their starters and shortened the game. There's not a person alive who is under any impression that the Charger's completely dominated that game. Perhaps they could have dropped 70. Hell, they had a fire ravaged city to play for. Maybe that's why they showed enough class to put the game to rest once the outcome seemed certain. As someone who has LT on my team, perhaps it would have been nice if they got him another 100yds and 2 TDs. But I'm a football fan first and understand that Norv was just doing the right thing. Did I just say that?

Edited by detlef
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Typically I don't like to get involved in these sorts of things, but as I'm somewhat of a stat hound, I'd like to point some things out:

 

1. You are comparing a Super Bowl to a regular season game.

2. Chi was up 23-3 at the half. NE was up 24-0 at the half. So fairly similar.

3. Chi scored 14 points on offense in the 3rd quarter (21 total). NE scored 7 points on offense in the 3rd quarter (14 total).

4. Chi was up by 41 points heading into the 4th quarter. NE was up 38 points heading into the 4th quarter. Again, fairly similar. Here's where it becomes dissimilar:

5. Chi's starting QB attempted 20 passes, completing 12. NE's starting QB attempted almost 2 times that (38) and completed 29.

6. Chi shut down their offense completely after the 3rd quarter, scoring 0 offensive points (2 total on a safety). NE threw 8 times for 91 yards during their 2 TD scoring drives in the 4th quarter, increasing their lead from 38 points to 52 points.

7. With over 13 mins left in the 4th quarter, Chi was leading by 34 points and did not score another point. W/ over 13 mins left in the 4th quarter, NE was leading by 38 points, and scored another 14 points on 2 offensive TDs.

8. Chi ran 49 times and threw 24 times (12 completed). Over a 2:1 margin of run to pass w/ a large lead. NE ran 35 times and threw 41 times (completed 31). That is a 1:1.17 margin of run to pass w/ a large lead.

9. Chi gained 3.4 ypr. NE gained 4.3 ypr.

 

Maybe you were too young to remember how Chi stuck to the run and drained the clock (you said it was your 1st year of watching football). I personally will remain out of the debate as to running up the score, but from what I can tell, those who are upset are upset w/ the 4th quarter, not the 3rd quarter.

 

And comparing the 4th quarters, you have totally different stats when looking at SB XX and yesterday's game. Chi ran twice as much as they passed in the game, even with a worse ypr than NE did. NE was running very effectively but still chose to throw the ball downfield in the 4th w/ a 38 point lead (larger than Chi's in the 4th) and score 2 offensive TDs. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just stating the facts. While Chi scored no TDs in the 4th.

 

So what Chi did and what NE did were 2 completely different things in the 4th quarter. I'm not saying the Pats were wrong or right, just correcting what seemed to me to be a misrepresentation as to how the 4th quarter of that Super Bowl was being portrayed.

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It's a fine line. It's why you don't try to steal 2nd when you're up by 10 runs in the 8th. It's why the guy at the plate is likely to get a free bag courtesy a fastball to the hip if you do. Of course, that's pretty much the only way a baseball team can be accused of "running up the score". Everything else is just execution. Guys are going to try to hit the ball every at bat and they should. Because offense and defense are totally separate in baseball.

 

Football is another story. There's a manner in which you can play the game that falls between taking a knee and throwing the ball all around the field. Those who support the play of the Patriots are quick to assume that everyone else is saying they should have packed it in for the second half. I'm not saying the players shouldn't still execute their assignments, I'm saying perhaps their assignments should have been to run the ball between the tackles and take some time off the clock. Not practice the two minute drill. That is the issue many of us have.

 

McBoog brought this up regarding the Charger's game. Up 35-0 at the half, they pounded the rock, started pulling their starters and shortened the game. There's not a person alive who is under any impression that the Charger's completely dominated that game. Perhaps they could have dropped 70. Hell, they had a fire ravaged city to play for. Maybe that's why they showed enough class to put the game to rest once the outcome seemed certain. As someone who has LT on my team, perhaps it would have been nice if they got him another 100yds and 2 TDs. But I'm a football fan first and understand that Norv was just doing the right thing. Did I just say that?

 

+1

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So what Chi did and what NE did were 2 completely different things in the 4th quarter. I'm not saying the Pats were wrong or right, just correcting what seemed to me to be a misrepresentation as to how the 4th quarter of that Super Bowl was being portrayed.

 

 

I don't recall mentioning the 4th quarter in my post. Let me check....

 

 

....nope....not mention of that. I don't see how I misrepresented it.

 

As far as scoring in the 4th quarter, complaining about either score is a bit of a joke to me. One came on the first drive of the quarter, a drive that started with 2 minutes left in the third quarter. It was an 8 minute drive (for all the folks complaining about the pats running out the clock.....please explain to me how running an 8 minute drive is not running out the clock). The second score was by the second a mix of the second, third, and 4th string players. Matt Cassell, who never started a game in College or in the NFL. Heath Evans. Kyle Eckel Both of which weren't good enough to make the Dolphins. Jabbar Gaffney, who was cut by the Texans. Do you really want to complain about a scoring drive spearheaded by such a mountain of talent? And sure...that drive only took 2:45 off the clock. It also started on the WAS 45...

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It's a fine line. It's why you don't try to steal 2nd when you're up by 10 runs in the 8th. It's why the guy at the plate is likely to get a free bag courtesy a fastball to the hip if you do. Of course, that's pretty much the only way a baseball team can be accused of "running up the score". Everything else is just execution. Guys are going to try to hit the ball every at bat and they should. Because offense and defense are totally separate in baseball.

 

Football is another story. There's a manner in which you can play the game that falls between taking a knee and throwing the ball all around the field. Those who support the play of the Patriots are quick to assume that everyone else is saying they should have packed it in for the second half. I'm not saying the players shouldn't still execute their assignments, I'm saying perhaps their assignments should have been to run the ball between the tackles and take some time off the clock. Not practice the two minute drill. That is the issue many of us have.

 

McBoog brought this up regarding the Charger's game. Up 35-0 at the half, they pounded the rock, started pulling their starters and shortened the game. There's not a person alive who is under any impression that the Charger's completely dominated that game. Perhaps they could have dropped 70. Hell, they had a fire ravaged city to play for. Maybe that's why they showed enough class to put the game to rest once the outcome seemed certain. As someone who has LT on my team, perhaps it would have been nice if they got him another 100yds and 2 TDs. But I'm a football fan first and understand that Norv was just doing the right thing. Did I just say that?

 

Coudlnt have said it better myself, though I think the defense should have to earn their paycheck. The Pats are clearly trying to rub other teams nose in it this yr with their offense, but Belicheat has alot of critics these days, and what better way to forget about his cheating back in September than creating a different controversy in October. Its my belief he will get his, and many will rub Pats fans noses in that when he does. Until then, teams need to play defense, and stop them and quit complaining. Im not for cheap shotting Brady, like has been talked about before, but how ironic would it be, if this team lost in round 1 of the playoffs, because of such an event, and it was because Brady was in the game of a 40 pt lead in the 4th quarter throwing the ball deep.

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I don't recall mentioning the 4th quarter in my post. Let me check....

....nope....not mention of that. I don't see how I misrepresented it.

 

My point in general is that the way Chi played the 4th quarter is vastly different than how NE played the 4th quarter. The reason why I mention the 4th is that is the only reason anyone has any problem w/ NE. No one is complaining about the first 3 quarters from what I have seen. And in your post, you said:

 

"That game set some expectations for me in terms of what I expect from football teams on the field."

 

And I'm trying to show you that the way Chi ended the game, played the 4th, or "Put the other team away" (all synonoms) was definitely different than what the Pats did. So I don't see how, if you saw the way the Bears played that 4th quarter, you would find it similar to how the Pats played.

 

To me, you were trying to use Chi's performance as a measuring stick for how a dominant team should play the game. And that the way Chi's dominant team ended their game was much different than the way NE's dominant team ended their game.

 

If you just want to defend the Pats, that is fine. But you cloaked it in a thread about how the Bears finished off the Pats in SB XX and how it was similar to the way the Pats are currently finishing off teams, and it's not similar at all.

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I remember that Super Bowl very well… worst match up in SB history. I also remember the prelude to that game and the AFC Championship. “Squish the Fish” and “Bury the Bears”. Frankly, I have never seen such immature fans in my life – anywhere.

 

And I think that’s what gets under the skin when it comes to the Pats – many (not all) of their fans act like petty, pre-teen girls. “Nah, nah, nah…. our team is better than yours and there’s nothing you can do about it.”

 

I grew up in New England (ick). And I still have family there. Since then I have lived in 9 states and I can safely say have never run across such immature fans. Fans everywhere are partisan – Broncos fans are pretty high on this list, but Pats fans cross the line of restraint IMO. I still get calls from family members whenever the Pats win.... "Hey, that game was wicked! Did you see it?"

 

I think it’s because they got beat down for so long (some one brought up the 52-0 Dolphins v Pats score earlier), that they want and need everyone else in the country to love and respect their team. Bill Simmons makes a living off of it for pete’s sake.

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I personally think they're running up the score so that Brady can break as many records as he can and break them in such a way that Manning (or someone else) can't come along next year and top them. Brady is their guy and they want him to own the record books. Manning has had less than a year to enjoy his single season passing TD record. It will get broken this year by Brady and no one will remember that Manning ever held the record. Is that a bad thing? I remember last year when Manning was striving for the record. A lot of people on this board were whining about the Colts not going for more TDs so that Manning could reach it quicker.

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My point in general is that the way Chi played the 4th quarter is vastly different than how NE played the 4th quarter. The reason why I mention the 4th is that is the only reason anyone has any problem w/ NE. No one is complaining about the first 3 quarters from what I have seen. And in your post, you said:

 

"That game set some expectations for me in terms of what I expect from football teams on the field."

 

And I'm trying to show you that the way Chi ended the game, played the 4th, or "Put the other team away" (all synonoms) was definitely different than what the Pats did. So I don't see how, if you saw the way the Bears played that 4th quarter, you would find it similar to how the Pats played.

 

To me, you were trying to use Chi's performance as a measuring stick for how a dominant team should play the game. And that the way Chi's dominant team ended their game was much different than the way NE's dominant team ended their game.

 

If you just want to defend the Pats, that is fine. But you cloaked it in a thread about how the Bears finished off the Pats in SB XX and how it was similar to the way the Pats are currently finishing off teams, and it's not similar at all.

 

You completely miss the point of my post. That team got crushed, spanked, demoralized and dismantled. Based on the -17 yards of offense in the first half, any points scored by the bears in the second half was "running up the score"

 

And more power to the Bears. While I still carry the emotional scars from that loss, I think that was the best football team I ever saw. Maybe until now.

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You completely miss the point of my post. That team got crushed, spanked, demoralized and dismantled. Based on the -17 yards of offense in the first half, any points scored by the bears in the second half was "running up the score"

 

And more power to the Bears. While I still carry the emotional scars from that loss, I think that was the best football team I ever saw. Maybe until now.

 

I'm confused - did you really just say "any points scored by the bears in the second half was "running up the score"?

 

I'm not trying to debate w/ you on the Pats this season. I'm trying to explain to you that the way the Bears ended the game in the last quarter was a total opposite of the way the Pats did. If you don't care to listen to that explanation, then that's OK, you don't have to. If you can show me how it's similar, open my eyes. Again, no one really cares about the 3rd quarter. There's still half the game left at the start of the third. The main point is: what is the situation starting the 4th quarter, and what do you do in the 4th to "close out" and end the game. NE didn't do anything similar to the Bears in SB XX.

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I'm confused - did you really just say "any points scored by the bears in the second half was "running up the score"?

 

I'm not trying to debate w/ you on the Pats this season. I'm trying to explain to you that the way the Bears ended the game in the last quarter was a total opposite of the way the Pats did. If you don't care to listen to that explanation, then that's OK, you don't have to. If you can show me how it's similar, open my eyes. Again, no one really cares about the 3rd quarter. There's still half the game left at the start of the third. The main point is: what is the situation starting the 4th quarter, and what do you do in the 4th to "close out" and end the game. NE didn't do anything similar to the Bears in SB XX.

 

:D

 

Again, the main point of my original post was that as a budding football fan, my team got housed. Bad. It was humiliating from the first snap. It wasn't humiliating because of what happened at any singular point in the game. There was no 'saving face' or anything like that. Sacking the opposing QB for a safety isn't exactly taking it easy on the other team.

 

And I don't care. The Bears killed the Pats. Good for them. 100% good for them. I am not trying to turn this into a play by play analysis of the games.

 

If you want a reasoned explanation of the Patriots play in the 4th quarter, one is posted earlier in this thread. Here's a recap...

 

As far as scoring in the 4th quarter, complaining about either score is a bit of a joke to me. One came on the first drive of the quarter, a drive that started with 2 minutes left in the third quarter. It was an 8 minute drive (for all the folks complaining about the pats running out the clock.....please explain to me how running an 8 minute drive is not running out the clock). The second score was by the second a mix of the second, third, and 4th string players. Matt Cassell, who never started a game in College or in the NFL. Heath Evans. Kyle Eckel Both of which weren't good enough to make the Dolphins. Jabbar Gaffney, who was cut by the Texans. Do you really want to complain about a scoring drive spearheaded by such a mountain of talent? And sure...that drive only took 2:45 off the clock. It also started on the WAS 45...

 

I have no problem with either drive. Stop the 8 minute drive. Stop the QB run up the middle on 4th and 1 where they give you the chance to get the ball back instead of kicking a FG and scoring points. Stop Matt Freaking Cassel and Kyle Eckel. The team isn't going to play dead, so don't expect them to.

 

If Matt Cassel, Kyle Eckel, and Jabbar Gaffney are wantonly driving down the field, that means the opposing team mailed it in. That's their fault. Play the whole game.

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Super Bowl XX is one of the first sports memories I have. I was 5 years old and cried when the Fridge scored because they were killing the Pats and the great Craig James.

 

22 years later and I would never cry if someone was killing them...why? Because I am not a freaking kid anymore. Half the people on this site whine enough that sometimes I wonder am I talking with-

A. Woman

B. Children

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gawd, as if defending their d00sh of a head coach for his complete lack of class isn't bad enough, pats fans have to get all sentimental and sanctimonious about it in the process :D

 

i don't really remember too well, 85 is a ways back....but was mcmahon flipping bombs to willie gault on 4th down in the 4th quarter of that game? :D

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gawd, as if defending their d00sh of a head coach for his complete lack of class isn't bad enough, pats fans have to get all sentimental and sanctimonious about it in the process :D

 

i don't really remember too well, 85 is a ways back....but was mcmahon flipping bombs to willie gault on 4th down in the 4th quarter of that game? :D

No but they did put a 300lb lineman in to run up the score. And now when I see it on replays I laugh.

 

Belichick had a great quote

“I’ve been coaching too long,” Belichick said. “I remember being on that side. When I was coaching defense it was my job to keep the score down, not theirs. When you’re playing defense it’s your job to stop them. It’s not (the offense’s) job to not score. It’s like I tell the offense, what the (bleep) do you think I send you guys out there for? To punt? We have a punt team for that. That’s not your job. Your job is to go out there and score points. If you come off the field and you haven’t scored points you haven’t done your job.”

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QUOTE(Steeltown Dre @ 10/29/07 11:40am)

I'm confused - did you really just say "any points scored by the bears in the second half was "running up the score"?

 

I'm not trying to debate w/ you on the Pats this season. I'm trying to explain to you that the way the Bears ended the game in the last quarter was a total opposite of the way the Pats did. If you don't care to listen to that explanation, then that's OK, you don't have to. If you can show me how it's similar, open my eyes. Again, no one really cares about the 3rd quarter. There's still half the game left at the start of the third. The main point is: what is the situation starting the 4th quarter, and what do you do in the 4th to "close out" and end the game. NE didn't do anything similar to the Bears in SB XX.

 

 

 

 

Again, the main point of my original post was that as a budding football fan, my team got housed. Bad. It was humiliating from the first snap. It wasn't humiliating because of what happened at any singular point in the game. There was no 'saving face' or anything like that. Sacking the opposing QB for a safety isn't exactly taking it easy on the other team.

 

And I don't care. The Bears killed the Pats. Good for them. 100% good for them. I am not trying to turn this into a play by play analysis of the games.

 

If you want a reasoned explanation of the Patriots play in the 4th quarter, one is posted earlier in this thread. Here's a recap...

 

 

QUOTE(Caveman_Nick @ 10/29/07 10:15am)

As far as scoring in the 4th quarter, complaining about either score is a bit of a joke to me. One came on the first drive of the quarter, a drive that started with 2 minutes left in the third quarter. It was an 8 minute drive (for all the folks complaining about the pats running out the clock.....please explain to me how running an 8 minute drive is not running out the clock). The second score was by the second a mix of the second, third, and 4th string players. Matt Cassell, who never started a game in College or in the NFL. Heath Evans. Kyle Eckel Both of which weren't good enough to make the Dolphins. Jabbar Gaffney, who was cut by the Texans. Do you really want to complain about a scoring drive spearheaded by such a mountain of talent? And sure...that drive only took 2:45 off the clock. It also started on the WAS 45...

 

 

I have no problem with either drive. Stop the 8 minute drive. Stop the QB run up the middle on 4th and 1 where they give you the chance to get the ball back instead of kicking a FG and scoring points. Stop Matt Freaking Cassel and Kyle Eckel. The team isn't going to play dead, so don't expect them to.

 

If Matt Cassel, Kyle Eckel, and Jabbar Gaffney are wantonly driving down the field, that means the opposing team mailed it in. That's their fault. Play the whole game.

 

 

 

Wow...Henry Wachter...graduate of Uof I gets the best push of his third string life and manages to record a safety in the superbowl....THIRD STRING....and you somehow compare that with what happened with NE and WASH. How is the crackpipe treating ya?

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:D

 

Again, the main point of my original post was that as a budding football fan, my team got housed. Bad. It was humiliating from the first snap. It wasn't humiliating because of what happened at any singular point in the game. There was no 'saving face' or anything like that. Sacking the opposing QB for a safety isn't exactly taking it easy on the other team. UHH..should they have held up and not tackled the QB.And I don't care. The Bears killed the Pats. Good for them. 100% good for them. I am not trying to turn this into a play by play analysis of the games.

 

If you want a reasoned explanation of the Patriots play in the 4th quarter, one is posted earlier in this thread. Here's a recap...

I have no problem with either drive. Stop the 8 minute drive. Stop the QB run up the middle on 4th and 1 where they give you the chance to get the ball back instead of kicking a FG and scoring points. Stop Matt Freaking Cassel and Kyle Eckel. The team isn't going to play dead, so don't expect them to.

 

If Matt Cassel, Kyle Eckel, and Jabbar Gaffney are wantonly driving down the field, that means the opposing team mailed it in. That's their fault. Play the whole game.

Edited by fitzkek
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Wow...Henry Wachter...graduate of Uof I gets the best push of his third string life and manages to record a safety in the superbowl....THIRD STRING....and you somehow compare that with what happened with NE and WASH. How is the crackpipe treating ya?

 

There are some awesome tools in these forums. One of them is the quote function.

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