theeohiostate Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 I realize FF tries to emulate the NFL to a certain degree, but when is it time stray from NFL and "old" FF tradition and side with fairness. Divisions are getting in the way of having better teams advance to the playoffs in FF. I see this over and over, year after year. I realize FF has the "luck" factor in it with regards to injuries and the pot luck dice roll for draft postion. It's far time we change the old system for the better and eliminate the free ride of these .500 and sub .500 division winners taking a free trip to Playoff FF Land , at the expense of teams with better records and more points. I can cite 3 league this season, where the mere fact of the division winner has caused teams with a better winning percentage to not make the playoffs. Additionally I can site far more leagues, where a .500 Division winner gets a higher seed or even a bye at the expense of a team owner with 2 or 3 more wins on the season. I do not accept the saying "this is FF...........blah .............blah............blah..........." It's about trying to fix a problem that has plaqued this game. It's about making sure the best 6 teams advance. For those of you who scream the sentiments of a "divisional rivaly" , i say "gimmie a break" . I can hardly remember who's in my divisions from year to year anyhow. Then add to the equation the turnonver in ownership that the majority of leagues face each season. This arguement just doesn't hold water. It's time to think about a system that will enable the best teams to advance and face off in the playoffs. Whether it be having one single divsion and the top 6 based on records advance. Whether it's leaving the divsions in tact and setting a rule that takes the top 3 teams based on H2H record and top 3 in points advance. If we can get past these automatic bids it'll go a long way to clean up this problem . If your a good team and won your division, then your going to make the playoffs anyhow, so why fight the change ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperCharger Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 H2H as never made sense to me in FF. Total points seems like a truer measurement of one's team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 i think you setup the rules and you run with it. from there, it is all part of the game. with injuries, match-ups, scoring systems, etc., there is no way to make a league 100% fair to everyone. i like being in different leagues that run in different ways to experience the variety. i do like leagues that throw some cash to the teams that score the most points either by week or for the entire season. that's a nice complement to the match-up structure and gives everyone something to play for through the season. as far as divisions, you know this going in, so you can choose to be a part of a league that is structured this way or decide not to be a part. you can also recommend changes to the other owners and see if they share your view. i do like the leagues with no divisions better because you are more rewarding overall performance, but divisions are fun too and they mirror how the NFL does it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theeohiostate Posted December 3, 2007 Author Share Posted December 3, 2007 i think you setup the rules and you run with it. from there, it is all part of the game. with injuries, match-ups, scoring systems, etc., there is no way to make a league 100% fair to everyone. i like being in different leagues that run in different ways to experience the variety. i do like leagues that throw some cash to the teams that score the most points either by week or for the entire season. that's a nice complement to the match-up structure and gives everyone something to play for through the season. as far as divisions, you know this going in, so you can choose to be a part of a league that is structured this way or decide not to be a part. you can also recommend changes to the other owners and see if they share your view. i do like the leagues with no divisions better because you are more rewarding overall performance, but divisions are fun too and they mirror how the NFL does it. I realize we all have a choice to play in these league or not, my post was to bring to light the hopes of a systematic change on how a league should be set up in order to try to put fourth a better effort to reveal the top 6 teams at season's end and not set aside an automatic bid that ends up going to an owner who wins his divsion with a piss poor record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilthorp Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 We solved this problem in our 14 team league...no divisions, everyone plays each other once. Top 6 teams make the playoffs by record, the #7 and #8 seed make it by points (after the first 6 teams are in). Divisions in 12 team or 10 team leagues create an inbalance in the schedules more often than not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theeohiostate Posted December 3, 2007 Author Share Posted December 3, 2007 H2H as never made sense to me in FF. Total points seems like a truer measurement of one's team. Have to disagree. Using total points as your only tool is no better then the worst systems out there for judging a teams overall contributions throughout the season. How many times does a team blow up for 250 points, then output a mere 100 the next 4 weeks.............it happens, and while their points look good, in a H2H league, they could be 1-4 with those points. The only way a total points league works, is if you incorporate into an ALL-Play system . So those weeks you score 200+ your getting 11 wins, then the weeks you fall back to earth with a 90 point output, your getting a 3-9 record for that week. I propose a system i have been analyzing this entire season, that seems to me to have the merits for what i'm looking for. Playoff contestants would be based on this formula Top 2 teams based on H2H wins Top 2 teams based on total points Top 2 teams based on power ranking If any of the above are duplicated, then the next team down the line would advance. This system would eliminate those crappy division winners, who've already gotten an unfair advantage all season, by their mere pressence in that crappy divsion and the teams they get to play. It also eliminates the byes that some teams are getting for going 8-8 and winning a division, while an 11-5 team gets bumped to a #4 seed, because their divsion had a 12-4 team in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theeohiostate Posted December 3, 2007 Author Share Posted December 3, 2007 We solved this problem in our 14 team league...no divisions, everyone plays each other once. Top 6 teams make the playoffs by record, the #7 and #8 seed make it by points (after the first 6 teams are in). Divisions in 12 team or 10 team leagues create an inbalance in the schedules more often than not. I like where you guys have decided to go with your league. What is the reasoning however on taking 6 teams based on H2H and only 2 teams based on points ? Couldn't you balance that out and go 4 and 4 ? I do find your current system far better then most , and it's good to see owners wanting to advance the best teams based on the entire league, and not based on a 2 or 3 team divison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gdawg Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 (edited) One of my leagues uses divisions, two five team divisions. In one division the 1st place team went 9-4, then we have a 7-6 team, followed by a 5-8 team in the playoffs The other division sports a 10-3 1st place team, and two 9-4 teams headed to the playoffs. A 7-6 team is being left out in the cold. We are seriously considering eliminating the division set-up, this sort of thing seems to happen just about every year. Edited December 3, 2007 by Gdawg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramhock Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 We solved this problem in our 14 team league...no divisions, everyone plays each other once. Top 6 teams make the playoffs by record, the #7 and #8 seed make it by points (after the first 6 teams are in). Divisions in 12 team or 10 team leagues create an inbalance in the schedules more often than not. My 12 team home league has the schedule s/u as everyone once = 11, then your division foes for a 2nd goround weeks 12-14. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 I realize we all have a choice to play in these league or not, my post was to bring to light the hopes of a systematic change on how a league should be set up in order to try to put fourth a better effort to reveal the top 6 teams at season's end and not set aside an automatic bid that ends up going to an owner who wins his divsion with a piss poor record. i think the variety is good, as stated. yes, a weaker team can make the playoffs, but that happens in the NFL as well. if they are that bad, they will be dispatched in the first round, or they could have a cinderella run. i think all that make it more fun. why are you trying to systemically remove my fun? leagues should try to mix up the divisions a bit if one does become too dominant with the more skilled owners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theeohiostate Posted December 3, 2007 Author Share Posted December 3, 2007 i think the variety is good, as stated. yes, a weaker team can make the playoffs, but that happens in the NFL as well. if they are that bad, they will be dispatched in the first round, or they could have a cinderella run. i think all that make it more fun. why are you trying to systemically remove my fun? leagues should try to mix up the divisions a bit if one does become too dominant with the more skilled owners. Here is the old adage of divisional fun I don't see the fun in allowing an undersving team to the playoffs just to be more like the NFL. This is FF, not to be confused with the NFL. It is this notion that has clouded our judgment when devising a system that is fair to the owners and not in correlation to the NFL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 TOS, I gotta disagree. I think having divisions gives more weight to divisional games and adds yet another level of strategy/complexity to the game. That not only includes weekly matchups but trades as well. Yeah you get jobbed at times, but there's no 100% foolproof system that guarantees everyone is happy. Besides, having divisions also helps bring about rivalriaes that wouldn't otherwise exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theeohiostate Posted December 3, 2007 Author Share Posted December 3, 2007 Besides, having divisions also helps bring about rivalriaes that wouldn't otherwise exist. This is the #1 arguement I've seen against the absense of divisions. I can't really understand it, but it's brought to my attention whenever the subject arises. Do you really know who is in your division from year to year? Many leagues reformat their divisions based on the draft spot they pick from each season. The bigger point against this arguement, is the turnover from season to season in FF leagues. I play in many BOTH Leagues, and we have 2-4 new owners each season in the majority of them. The Empire being the exception, due to the entry fee that we enjoy playing for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 leagues should try to mix up the divisions a bit if one does become too dominant with the more skilled owners. in a huddle league here some were talking about re-alignment because one division was to strong and 2 of those teams could never make the playoffs....well this yr that stronger division has a combined 21-31 record while that "pink panty division" as it has been called has a 32-20 combined record....divisions create rivalries which are fun....things are cyclical so it is doubtful a div would always be dominant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Trick Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 I realize FF tries to emulate the NFL to a certain degree, but when is it time stray from NFL and "old" FF tradition and side with fairness.Divisions are getting in the way of having better teams advance to the playoffs in FF. I see this over and over, year after year. I realize FF has the "luck" factor in it with regards to injuries and the pot luck dice roll for draft postion. It's far time we change the old system for the better and eliminate the free ride of these .500 and sub .500 division winners taking a free trip to Playoff FF Land , at the expense of teams with better records and more points. I can cite 3 league this season, where the mere fact of the division winner has caused teams with a better winning percentage to not make the playoffs. Additionally I can site far more leagues, where a .500 Division winner gets a higher seed or even a bye at the expense of a team owner with 2 or 3 more wins on the season. I do not accept the saying "this is FF...........blah .............blah............blah..........." It's about trying to fix a problem that has plaqued this game. It's about making sure the best 6 teams advance. For those of you who scream the sentiments of a "divisional rivaly" , i say "gimmie a break" . I can hardly remember who's in my divisions from year to year anyhow. Then add to the equation the turnonver in ownership that the majority of leagues face each season. This arguement just doesn't hold water. It's time to think about a system that will enable the best teams to advance and face off in the playoffs. Whether it be having one single divsion and the top 6 based on records advance. Whether it's leaving the divsions in tact and setting a rule that takes the top 3 teams based on H2H record and top 3 in points advance. If we can get past these automatic bids it'll go a long way to clean up this problem . If your a good team and won your division, then your going to make the playoffs anyhow, so why fight the change ? Tell me about it. I agree with a lot of what you said. In my local its a 10 teamer and its broken into two divisions. But the stupid commish didn't set the league up right cause he has the division tie breaker as total points basically making the division record worthless and I'm the #3 seed when I have 200 more points and 3 wins than the other division, so now I get the face the hottest team in the league in the first round rather than having a bye, it's stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 I'm in five leagues ... one local, 4 BOTH leagues. My local league is the only one where the divisions re-align every year ... in the other 4 leagues not only do the divisions stay the same but so does the schedule. Having to play your division foes TWICE also changes the dynamics of the league. In the CORE we have 2 divisions of 6 teams. Week 15 each division winner plays the division wild card for the chance to advance to the super bowl. Every single year I have made the playoffs in my division Dorey has knocked me out of the championship game. You don't think that sets up a rivarly? In FOFF my son joined this year ... I specifically asked for him to be placed in my division so we could play each other TWICE each year. You don't think we have a rivarly? Going total points or all play eliminates all of these strategies. It is the H2H component and the rivalries that make this game fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikesVikes Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 (edited) H2H as never made sense to me in FF. Total points seems like a truer measurement of one's team. I agree. Charch from Fanball was advising the same thing on the radio last week. Points for the year should count more than the one week you beat someone in your league. And if you have the same record as somebody else, obviously they beat someone you didn't and you beat somebody they didn't besides your H2H matchup. Edited to add: I'm talking about breaking ties to advance. Edited December 3, 2007 by MikesVikes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 I agree. Charch from Fanball was advising the same thing on the radio last week. Points for the year should count more than the one week you beat someone in your league. And if you have the same record as somebody else, obviously they beat someone you didn't and you beat somebody they didn't besides your H2H matchup. And it makes more sense for a team that scores below average 10 out of 13 weeks but blows up 3 weeks to make the playoffs on the strength of those 3 weeks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikesVikes Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 (edited) And it makes more sense for a team that scores below average 10 out of 13 weeks but blows up 3 weeks to make the playoffs on the strength of those 3 weeks? Read above. I was talking about breaking ties and not getting rid of H2H matchups. And Yea, and the area of breaking ties, I absolutely agree with total points before one H2H matchup. Absolutely. Edited December 3, 2007 by MikesVikes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Read above. I was talking about breaking ties and not getting rid of H2H matchups. Ah. In a H2H league H2H should be first tie-breaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missoula Griz Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 In FOFF my son joined this year ... I specifically asked for him to be placed in my division so we could play each other TWICE each year. You don't think we have a rivarly? Look at Grits taking advantage of a kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Cleveland made the playoffs one year at 8-8 in the NFL while Denver at 12-4 did not. I agree with BS Miscreant. Stick with the rules you have. They can be changed during the off season. I like divisions but having them or not having them wouldn't keep me put of joining any league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Look at Grits taking advantage of a kid. My son is playing me this week. He wins and I am out of the playoffs. I win and get some help from ABearWith then I win the division. My son desperately wants to win this week ... and will if Randy Moss does not out score NE by 5 points tonight. He traded for TO 2 weeks ago and that could be the difference in him winning or losing this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qball86 Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 (edited) Posted this before but didn't get a good response to it, this topic seems more fitting for it though. I offer it, for suggestions on how to tweak it or is it not even a good starting point. Thinking it through to adopt in a local next year. It protects against teams "blowing up" 2 or 3 weeks and making the playoffs because their record would likely be 3 and 10 if they scored that few points the other weeks. You can have divisions if you chose but the win/loss records established as follows. Every week the 5 teams that score the most get a "W" and the 5 that score the least get a "L". The win/loss record at the end sets the playoffs. We haven't decided if that will go into the playoffs or if the playoffs will go to head-to-head format. This came up because the team in last place in one of the current divisions has scored the most points(by far) but has played against the team winning the "highpojint of the week" pool 6 out of 11 weeks now. The team in first in that division has had an average of 25 pts/week less scored against them. I'm a bit of the old-school head-2-head with divisions player myself but do like the idea of the best teams making the playoffs and not the teams who had the h2h schedule work in their favor. Fishing for someone to put other eyes to it and see the potential problems. TIA Edited December 3, 2007 by Qball86 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godtomsatan Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 (edited) Divisions seem to exist primarily for the sole purpose of scheduling in redraft leagues. Also, if points is the only way of measuring a team, about half of your league will stop paying attention once they are too far back. There needs to be multiple incentives. Edited December 3, 2007 by godtomsatan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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