Problem with a comish. Pay-outs etc..

[rai]

Hi

 

I have a couple of questions and would appreciate any replies so I can get an idea if I am wrong or right.

 

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this is a hypothetical example

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we are in a money league $450 plus $5 per drop/add

 

I made it to the super bowl but lost a close one.

 

I was expecting something like $1000 for second place ( we voted on this but I do not recall exactly what I thought it was gonna be something like $4500 for 1st and $1000 for second).

 

I specifically did not want $500 for 2nd place because that means you make it all the way have one bad game and you don't make any money (after you figure your buy-in and drop/add)

 

After I lost, I asked the commish how much did I win he told me I get just $500 for secod and after my buy-in and drop/add money I come out net $10.

 

That means I get $10 (just call it I played for free this year)

 

And first place gets $5000

 

Is this typical?

 

 

Is this typical for 2nd place to get 1/10 what 1st place gets?

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Second i asked the commish why isn't there more money for the pay-out since the buy-in was $450 x 16 is $7200 and then drop/add was $1550 so that's $8750 but he said he had to pay for the ring, web-site, stickers, food/beer for two parties etc..

 

On top of that he said he keeps the drop/add money. He says he has to get paid for being the comish. He does not end up keeping all the drop/add $1550 drop/add money since a lot of it was from his own drop/add and also he put his son (who is about 16 years old) to fill in for somebody who dropped out. So he didn't charge his son any entry fee nor did he charge him any drop/add money so in that sense the pot is $750 light since only 15 people are paying and the Commish did not pay anything for drop/add.

 

Is it normal for a commish to get paid or take a piece of the action?

 

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Do you think it's proper for the Commish to have his son get a free ride? I asked what if he won he'd keep the money so IMO it should come at an entry cost since some of this is luck so just being in the draft he has a chance to win.?

 

Thanks

Edited January 20, 2008 by rai

[Chief]

Your commish and son make out better than you did and never made the superbowl. With 8g, 2nd place should get a lil more than just enuff to cover the costs, the $1000 sounded reasonable to me. All the leagues I'm in it pays out 3 spots. Your league sounds a lil weak to me in this area.

[AtomicCEO]

If I paid $450 for a computer, I'd make sure I knew the specs first.

 

How did you drop $450 without doing a little investigation into what you were buying first?

[vonromig]

This is not a league. This is a scam... a con job... a grift.

 

Von

[rai]

This is not a league. This is a scam... a con job... a grift.

 

thanks but what is a typical pay-out?

 

Say there was a hypothetical $7K after expenses what would be normal pay-out?

Edited January 20, 2008 by rai

[Timmypg]

The league I commish we collect $50 X 12 = $600 - $70 (MFL) = $530. We give first place $300, second place $150, & $10 to each weeks high scorer ($130). We also charge $1 per add/drop but that money goes for food & drinks for next years draft.

[The Grey Pilgrim]

Asking what a normal payout is a difficult question. I'm in 3 leagues and all pay out at different amounts. But a generic answer to this generic question might be that 1st place takes 60%, 2nd place takes 30%, and 3rd place takes 10 % or roughly gets their money back. If 7000 is the payout after expenses, then $4200 for 1st, $2100 for 2nd, $700 for 3rd, or about what it cost to play the year.

 

Obviously though, any pay-out set-up would be considered fair to me as long as it was clearly known at the beginning of the year, and remained the same percentages. Heck, winner take all is fair if all the owners agree.

 

I'd be out of this league, that is for sure. Too many shenanigans with the commish and son.

 

The Grey Pilgrim

[xMRogers]

I'll preface this with saying "there's no typical - there's whatever was agreed to upfront". I've seen winner take all leagues, and seen leagues that pay for so many diff. things (high scorer of the week/season, best record, 4 playoff teams...) that everyone gets something.

 

However, most leagues I've been part of pay top 3 or 4 teams, in descending order somewhere along 50/25/15/10 or 40/30/20/10

 

But I've been in one wich was 2 team, 80/20, that was it - so worse than what you have going, but possible.

 

The bigger issue does seem to be the way the money disappeared. There's been multiple "commish paid/not paid" threads, but even those of us who have no issue taking a fee take between $50 and $100 - sound's like your guy is closer to 10x that amount. Paying expenses is fine, but expenses shouldn't be $1000 unless that was agreed to early on.

[Swampnuts]

This skell is running a scam. You should not be paid to be a commish IMO. I've been in leagues where the commish takes a discount on the entry, but that's even pushing it. I commish my own league to make sure I compete in a fair league with good solid players involved. I take no discounts or kickbacks.

 

Don't associate yourself (and your cash), with somebody who's obviously taking advantage of all involved.

[Pope Flick]

My locla pays $1200/300.

 

Commish does not get paid.

 

Also, every penny is accounted for in our league rules, but we don't have paid add/drops.

[Ursa Majoris]

Also, every penny is accounted for in our league rules, but we don't have paid add/drops.

Yep. When I was commishing my local, I was fanatical about the money being exactly right every week. I used MFL's accounting function to make sure everyone could see what was going on and the prize money was embedded in the written rules.

[Duchess Jack]

we have $100 in

 

first placd $600

second place $250

2 semi final losers @ $200

Toilet Bowl $50

 

the rest goes towards software, paypal fees and the trophey

 

this is a weird questions as this all should have been hammered out before hand... you seem to be getting scammed - but its seems to be nobody's fault but your own for not having it in writing...

 

at the end of the day, its amoral to let a sucker keep his money

[whomper]

250 per team

12 team (commish team paid)

5 per move- total transaction money gets split between high points and best record 50/50

100 per division winner (3)

50 per week high points

1500 superbowl winner 300 2nd place

[Savage Beatings]

Buyer Beware...

 

The Commish makes out like a bandit whether he wins or loses. How could you possibly be putting up this much money and not have some kind of documentation specifying the payouts? Nobody to blame but yourself for being in this position. I probably wouldn't return if I were you.

[Ursa Majoris]

Buyer Beware...

 

The Commish makes out like a bandit whether he wins or loses. How could you possibly be putting up this much money and not have some kind of documentation specifying the payouts? Nobody to blame but yourself for being in this position. I probably wouldn't return if I were you.

So speaketh a first class commish.

[Grits and Shins]

Seems to me like one of the first things you check out when you join a league is the payout structure, especially if you are fronting $450 to get in. You can 't "assume" anything about the rules and when you do make assumptions you shouldn't be surprised when you are wrong. How anybody can go into the final week of the fantasy season and not know the payouts is beyond me.

 

To answer your question ... there is no typical payout structure ... that is why you read the rules.

[MikesVikes]

The commish pays for transactions like everyone else otherwise the league is unfair.

 

Everybody brings their own Chips and beer and you don't deduct from league fees for that. I'm sure that your commish is keeping his receipts on that one.

 

If the commish can find 15 other players to play in this league than he must be a very good salesman.

Edited January 20, 2008 by MikesVikes

[myhousekey]

Seems a little low. We pay out 60/30/10 for 1st-3rd. But I'm not sure why the rules are being questioned at this point. Everyone should know before the season starts what the payout for each place is going to be.

Edited January 20, 2008 by myhousekey

[mbarton11]

I am the commish of my league. It is just a bunch of friends and have been playing since 92. We charge $80.00 entry, with $5 of each entry going to the web site. I only pay $50.00 entry since I buy the trophy(around 15.00) and send out two news letters each year that everyone really enjoys. I also make copies of the league rules, draft order, roster log etc. for everyone on draft day. Along with doing the leg work to find a cool place to have our draft every year and keeping track of every thing else. I also start each draft asking if anyone else wants to be the commish and there has been no one step up for over 10 years now. But yes I do take a $30 discount on my entry and I bet no one in my league would bitch if I comped my entire fee. They all know as long as I am commish payouts are fair and fast and they are going to have a hell of a good time on draft night. Also trade/FA pick ups are $5 and that money goes to the total points winner for the year.

[Elrond]

Sounds like the Payouts were agreed on before the season but did not get posted. That is bad but not a total disaster. At least there was a vote.

 

It not unusual for Second place money to be equal to the Entry Fee. That’s how we do it in both my leagues (I Commish one of them) but we also spread the wealth through payouts for Division Champs and Weekly & Season High Scores.

 

The whole part about the son being a replacement owner is confusing. From your post it sounds like he joined the league before the draft. That makes him a regular owner just like everyone else and he should pay the Entry Fee. If he took over from a dead-beat owner at some point during the season it would not be unusual to let him play for free, but it should be understood and agreed on by the league if he is eligible for prize money.

 

I personally would not play in a league where the Commish received payment but some leagues do it that way. From what I have seen the payment is normally not a great deal of money. For your Commish to get a free $450 entry plus keep all the transaction fees is over the top, IMO. Furthermore, free transactions when everyone else has to pay gives him an unfair advantage.

 

Nobody should have a problem with the Commish reimbursing himself for website fees, beer and food for two parties, trophies, etc. Getting reimbursed for actual expenses is not the same as getting “paid”.

 

Your post makes this league sound like a total scam but it might be that your Commish just isn’t a very good communicator. If he gave a proper accounting of the league funds you might see that everything is fine (aside from the free $450 entry fee, but if your league is OK with that then no problem there either.)

[TimC]

Seems a little low. We pay out 60/30/10 for 1st-3rd. But I'm not sure why the rules are being questioned at this point. Everyone should know before the season starts what the payout for each place is going to be.

 

Yep, as a few have said, we also payout 60/30 for 1st and 2nd. I think that's pretty standard.

[rai]

The whole part about the son being a replacement owner is confusing. From your post it sounds like he joined the league before the draft. That makes him a regular owner just like everyone else and he should pay the Entry Fee. If he took over from a dead-beat owner at some point during the season it would not be unusual to let him play for free, but it should be understood and agreed on by the league if he is eligible for prize money.

 

I personally would not play in a league where the Commish received payment but some leagues do it that way. From what I have seen the payment is normally not a great deal of money. For your Commish to get a free $450 entry plus keep all the transaction fees is over the top, IMO. Furthermore, free transactions when everyone else has to pay gives him an unfair advantage.

 

Nobody should have a problem with the Commish reimbursing himself for website fees, beer and food for two parties, trophies, etc. Getting reimbursed for actual expenses is not the same as getting “paid”.

it is confusing. What happened is somebody didn't show and it was drop-dead time so the Commish said my son is here so let's let him take up the last spot.

 

I look around now and see you can play with an odd number with a bye-week or have the team play against the league average score. But we never talked about this option. I thought he was making up for having somebody drop out and he would pay just like everyone else.

 

that is all that was said he did not say he was getting a free ride. I only found out when I asked for the financials. Looking at the financials he said we were getting $450 x 16 but then on the expenses he subtracted that $450 out. So there was only 15 paying in.

 

Also he didn't charge himself any drop/add money and he did almost 2x as many moves as anyone else. And his son had about $100 in drop/add money that was not charged. So combined his son was -$550 and his own drop/add was -$200

 

So right there is $750 less than if everyone was playing. And he didn't change any bit of the first place money so when I won 2nd place I was expecting $1000 (or $1500) and instead I was told $500 (which just covers my buy-in and drop/add money).

 

I said if there is so much lower total money and if you are changing the payouts for some why didn't the first place money give back some?

 

I know it is my fault not having everything in writing.

 

Also on talking to him and saying he's still not paying all the money that should be going in he told me he keeps all the left over money. specifically most of the drop/add money. He sais every commish takes a cut like it's no big deal.

 

But this is never told to me this is my second year in the league. I never realized it since this is the first time I made the SB. We pay some for division winner and wild cars winner but not a lot. But I believe he lowered that pay-out this year the only thing not lowered was the first place money.

Edited January 20, 2008 by rai

[MikesVikes]

Also he didn't charge himself any drop/add money and he did almost 2x as many moves as anyone else.

 

Obviously if you aren't charged any fees there's no reason not to have more transactions than anyone else. Which makes it totally unfair and a totally BS league to be in.

[kcmast]

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this is a hypothetical example

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What do you mean by this? Did it happen or not?

[Elrond]

it is confusing. What happened is somebody didn't show and it was drop-dead time so the Commish said my son is here so let's let him take up the last spot.

 

I look around now and see you can play with an odd number with a bye-week or have the team play against the league average score. But we never talked about this option. I thought he was making up for having somebody drop out and he would pay just like everyone else.

 

that is all that was said he did not say he was getting a free ride. I only found out when I asked for the financials. Looking at the financials he said we were getting $450 x 16 but then on the expenses he subtracted that $450 out. So there was only 15 paying in.

 

Also he didn't charge himself any drop/add money and he did almost 2x as many moves as anyone else. And his son had about $100 in drop/add money that was not charged. So combined his son was -$550 and his own drop/add was -$200

 

So right there is $750 less than if everyone was playing. And he didn't change any bit of the first place money so when I won 2nd place I was expecting $1000 (or $1500) and instead I was told $500 (which just covers my buy-in and drop/add money).

 

I said if there is so much lower total money and if you are changing the payouts for some why didn't the first place money give back some?

 

I know it is my fault not having everything in writing.

 

Also on talking to him and saying he's still not paying all the money that should be going in he told me he keeps all the left over money. specifically most of the drop/add money. He sais every commish takes a cut like it's no big deal.

 

But this is never told to me this is my second year in the league. I never realized it since this is the first time I made the SB. We pay some for division winner and wild cars winner but not a lot. But I believe he lowered that pay-out this year the only thing not lowered was the first place money.

 

There are leagues where the Commish gets compensation but those leagues are very much the exception rather than the rule, and $450 is WAY out of line with anything I have ever seen or heard of outside of a professionally run league, which this clearly is not. The fact that he is pocketing the transaction fees (probably $500 to $1000) on top of it is O-U-T-R-A-G-E-O-U-S.

 

Under the circumstances there is no way the son should have played for free unless it was announced and agreed upon by the league. There were a number of better solutions.

 

As for your portion of the prize money… if there were deductions based on the overall prize fund being short they should have been taken pro rata from everyone, not just from the second place share.

 

Your Commish is doing a very poor job. Terms like unethical and dishonest come to mind but wouldn’t want to be too hard on him. Maybe he is just totally incompetent. I guarantee you that just about everyone reading this thread is shaking his or her head wondering how a league could possibly be this messed up. It is bad.