Caveman_Nick Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 The only pick I am going to strongly disagree with you on is Matt Ryan. He is still young, and he's 6'5". Yes, he needs to bulk up some, but to call him Chad Pennington is a little bit of a from a physical standpoint. If he's a Chad Pennington clone and can grow some bulk on his frame and strengthen his arm, then I think this is a terrific pick. As with any draft pick, time will tell, but I think this was the best direction to go for this franchise, both from a personnel/need and an image standpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Scorp Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 I think he compares more to a Matt Hasselbeck than Chad Pennington. Yes he threw a lot of INT's in college, but some of that goes to the level of talent, or lack there of around him. As far as having him as the 3rd or 4th best QB in other drafts is way off base as well. He graded out just as high as Eli, Roethlisberger and Phillip Rivers... Any idea on how J Harrington, Akli Smith, T Couch, R Leaf graded out??? I would be courious to see the comparible grades as they we QB's that got thrown into bad teams and ended up failing (jury still out on Alex Smith and even Lienart for that matter) Eli, Ben and Phillip at least had good teams to go to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikesVikes Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Then they weren't paying attention to what Ted Thompson does. I like his other 2 picks better. I heard this from a Packer radio station. It sounded like a consensus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyalboyd Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Any idea on how J Harrington, Akli Smith, T Couch, R Leaf graded out??? I would be courious to see the comparible grades as they we QB's that got thrown into bad teams and ended up failing (jury still out on Alex Smith and even Lienart for that matter) Eli, Ben and Phillip at least had good teams to go to. Lienart will be just fine. Not too sure about Smith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egret Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Nice analysis BB. Way to put it out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted April 28, 2008 Author Share Posted April 28, 2008 The only pick I am going to strongly disagree with you on is Matt Ryan. He is still young, and he's 6'5". Yes, he needs to bulk up some, but to call him Chad Pennington is a little bit of a from a physical standpoint. Why do guys get so hung up on size/weight when comparing players. What should we compare next? Hair color? Eye color? Where they buy their jeans? It's about style of play. Ryan clearly has an issue with fitting his throws into college sized windows. That goes to accuracy, field vision, and imagination in addition to the points such as arm strength. He needs to arc his deep ball too much to get it way down field, and it has a tendancy to flutter. That allows CBs and FSs to recover, and in the pros they recover in a big hurry. He's better on his short to medium throws, but still is a bit sloppy in his targeting. On top of that, with his deep throws spending a long time in the air and wobbling a bit, that allows pro DBs to close their coverage on shorter routes, knowing that they have the time to recover on deep balls. That's exactly the biggest issue Pennington has. He doesn't scare any pro DBs with his capability to extend the field, so consequently they tighten the shorter coverage, partly to take that away and partly to dare him to throw to his weakness. Geez, Ryan has had 24 INTs in the past two years at the college level. What do you think the pros will do to him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 29) SF Kentwan Balmer, DT – Major underachiever and head case who could be a good player if he ever matures, but again, SF also could have had the pick of WRs, where they really need some help. This was maybe the biggest reach of the first round given the intangibles. Then why was this guys name at the top of every on-line best available regardless of position list when they made the pick. Enough people were saying that there was not a 1st caliber WR in the draft and DL is a place where you can never have too many. Of course, time will tell if the kid just needed to play for a good coach (playing for Butch Davis rather than Bunting his final year) or if he was just a one year wonder. Of course, let's not fool ourselves into thinking that there aren't questions like this that surround tons of players in the draft. So, I'm not saying the kid is a lock by any stretch, but the move was by definition not a stretch because he was considered by plenty to be among the best players left out there at their pick but also does not play a position they didn't need. I think the most foolish thing a bad team can do is fixate on a particular position in the draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 I think the most foolish thing a bad team can do is fixate on a particular position in the draft. Apparently, despite the glaring need at offensive line (and to some extent at defensive line and QB), the brain trust at Arrowhead agrees with you. 12 picks and two offensive linemen ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfish247 Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Apparently, despite the glaring need at offensive line (and to some extent at defensive line and QB), the brain trust at Arrowhead agrees with you. 12 picks and two offensive linemen ... Right there with you but the Falcons... 11 picks, 1 OL, and zero DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Apparently, despite the glaring need at offensive line (and to some extent at defensive line and QB), the brain trust at Arrowhead agrees with you. 12 picks and two offensive linemen ... Well, there's a difference in not fixating and ignoring. However, when you think about how few picks really end up panning out, I think it's foolish to ever pass up on the player you think has the best chance of being a good pro regardless of what position he plays. Of course, there are exceptions. Maybe KC was simply never anywhere near as excited about the options at OL as they were at other guys out there for each pick. Would you turn your back on a player that you really felt good about to take a guy that you don't think has the goods just because he plays a position you need? If he's not good, you're no closer to solving your problem and you might lose out on a real player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Right there with you but the Falcons... 11 picks, 1 OL, and zero DL Yep, and the Falcons did the worse thing by being dead set on taking a QB because they need one. Well, the need a ton of stuff and Ryan was simply the best option in a rather thin class. So they got stuck with a guy who would likely be a mid to late round selection in any other year and will have that compounded by having to pay top 5 QB money. Trust me, I know all too well as the Niners did the same with A Smith a few years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Why do guys get so hung up on size/weight when comparing players. What should we compare next? Hair color? Eye color? Where they buy their jeans? It's about style of play. Ryan clearly has an issue with fitting his throws into college sized windows. That goes to accuracy, field vision, and imagination in addition to the points such as arm strength. He needs to arc his deep ball too much to get it way down field, and it has a tendancy to flutter. That allows CBs and FSs to recover, and in the pros they recover in a big hurry. He's better on his short to medium throws, but still is a bit sloppy in his targeting. On top of that, with his deep throws spending a long time in the air and wobbling a bit, that allows pro DBs to close their coverage on shorter routes, knowing that they have the time to recover on deep balls. That's exactly the biggest issue Pennington has. He doesn't scare any pro DBs with his capability to extend the field, so consequently they tighten the shorter coverage, partly to take that away and partly to dare him to throw to his weakness. Geez, Ryan has had 24 INTs in the past two years at the college level. What do you think the pros will do to him? I can't think of many QBs that did not get eaten up by pro DBs as rookie starters. Roethlisberger is the only one that comes to mind, and he was fairly limited in what he was allowed to do on offense as a rookie. Given a couple of years of work, I think Ryan will be the top QB of this class, and a very good NFL starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 I'm pretty sure that the Falcons are not using ZBS anymore. Yeah, Petrino ditched the ZBS & look what happened.... - 2004 1st in the NFL in rushing yards & 1st in the NFL in yards per attempt - 2005 1st in the NFL in rushing yards & 1st in the NFL in yards per attempt - 2006 1st in the NFL in rushing yards & 1st in the NFL in yards per attempt Enter Petrino & the end of ZBS - 2007 26th in the NFL in rushing yards & 20th in the NFL in yards per attempt No doubt the loss of Vick hurt the Falcons rushing numbers some, but to fall all the way from 1st in the NFL to 26th & 20th respectively.... Considering that the Falcons O'line which he inherited was specifically built for the ZBS, that precipitous fall is all on Petrino for trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. What blocking scheme they'll run under Mike Smith, is yet TBD, but if Smith paid any attention to the disaster his predecessor wrought, my best guess is that Smith will be smart enough to work with the pieces he's been given & run some kind of hybrid ZBS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egret Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Yeah, Petrino ditched the ZBS & look what happened.... - 2004 1st in the NFL in rushing yards & 1st in the NFL in yards per attempt - 2005 1st in the NFL in rushing yards & 1st in the NFL in yards per attempt - 2006 1st in the NFL in rushing yards & 1st in the NFL in yards per attempt Enter Petrino & the end of ZBS - 2007 26th in the NFL in rushing yards & 20th in the NFL in yards per attempt No doubt the loss of Vick hurt the Falcons rushing numbers some, but to fall all the way from 1st in the NFL to 26th & 20th respectively.... Considering that the Falcons O'line which he inherited was specifically built for the ZBS, that precipitous fall is all on Petrino for trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. What blocking scheme they'll run under Mike Smith, is yet TBD, but if Smith paid any attention to the disaster his predecessor wrought, my best guess is that Smith will be smart enough to work with the pieces he's been given & run some kind of hybrid ZBS. I agree w/ you that Petrino moving away from ZBS was a mistake. They have a completely different backfield now. Dunn, Vick, Duckett Turner, Ryan, Norwood. That's a big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfish247 Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 I agree w/ you that Petrino moving away from ZBS was a mistake. They have a completely different backfield now. Dunn, Vick, Duckett Turner, Ryan, Norwood. That's a big difference. I agree with removing the ZBS. I don't agree with moving away from it entirely but removing it as the focus of the offense had to be done. What good was it to be tops in rushing every year when it came at the expense of a balanced attack? They should've kept elements of the ZBS until they were able to completely revamp the OL and acquire some RBs more suited to a traditional scheme (Dunn and Norwood are not power runners). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Wish I could disagree with BB on the Jets, but I think they probabbly do get two thumbs down for those two first round picks - Gholston - has potentially alot of upside, but much like in fantasy football, I don't like to roll the dice too much with a first-round pick, esp a high first-rounder. Understand that there are no sure things, but I think Gholston carries more risk than most. And agree with both of BB's points on this pick - jets likely could have (and should have) traded down with New Orleans, and this pick may perpetuate a growing trand in jetsville about mismatches between players and scheme on the defensive side of the ball. Keller - ugh! Don't understand what the Jets are doing at the TE position. They have Baker, who is no stud but servicebale for sure. They then go and get Bubba Franks in the offseason and give him a contract for more than twice what Baker is making. Baker sees this and sees a bunch of other players cashing in, including some returning players (Coles and Rhodes), and he starts to make some noise about being underpaid (actually been making that noise for a little while now, but he started to become more public about it, and then left the preseason conditioning camp). Jets don't want another Pete Kendall situation, where they refuse to renegotiate his deal, then deal him without a serviceable player in his stead - but wait, we have Bubba Franks, isn't he a serviceable player? And if not, why did we sign him for 1 year at $1.6m+? So they trade up and take Keller, an athletic but marginally sized TE, probabbly more suited to an H-Back role. I don't like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H8tank Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 8) JAX Derrick Harvey, DE – Is he a heavy OLB, or a way too light DE? He’ll get swallowed up by OTs on the line, and while he has the athletic ability I don’t know if he has the instincts to play LB. Plus he would have lasted down the board a ways longer unless I’m badly mistaken. Del Rio must have something spectacular planned for him. I’ve got my doubts here Derrick Harvey 6'5" 271#'s 31 Reps on the Bench press @ Combine... Michael Strahan 6'5" 255# Jason Taylor 6'6" 255# Jared Allen 6'6" 270# John Abraham 6'4" 266# Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawks21 Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 (edited) Darren McFadden will help that defense way more than any other player in this draft would have. It is truly amazing how quickly the excitement of a player like that can spread to the defense, especially run defense. Refute simpletons, refute!! Edited April 28, 2008 by Seahawks21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 What good was it to be tops in rushing every year when it came at the expense of a balanced attack? The 2000 Baltimore Ravens showed what a good predominantly run based offense is capable of. The 2005 Pittsburgh Steelers also showed an unbalanced run attack & were very successful with it. Of course, to take a team with a predominantly run based offense to the n'th degree, you gotta have an outstanding D to go along with it...or you end up like the 2004 Atlanta Falcons. Make it to the Conference Championship, but ultimately miss out on the big show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Cracker Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 On top of that, with his deep throws spending a long time in the air and wobbling a bit, that allows pro DBs to close their coverage on shorter routes, knowing that they have the time to recover on deep balls. That's exactly the biggest issue Pennington has. He doesn't scare any pro DBs with his capability to extend the field, so consequently they tighten the shorter coverage, partly to take that away and partly to dare him to throw to his weakness. I think Ryan's arm strength is quite a bit better than Pennington's and I watched him play a couple of games and don't remember seeing balls "flutter" In the VT game they lost he had 5 interceptions I believe and 2-3 of them came off receivers hands and there were a couple of really good plays by DBs that were also drafted in this draft when they knew he had to pass at the end of the game. I'm not 100% sold on Ryan but I do think he's way ahead of any QB in this draft or next year's draft and it's not very often you get a chance to take someone like that. Whether or not he works out is as much up to the coaching staff putting him in a position to succeed. He has some weapons at RB and WR and they just need a couple more OL to have a reasonable chance for some success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfish247 Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 ...I'm not 100% sold on Ryan but I do think he's way ahead of any QB in this draft or next year's draft and it's not very often you get a chance to take someone like that. Whether or not he works out is as much up to the coaching staff putting him in a position to succeed. He has some weapons at RB and WR and they just need a couple more OL to have a reasonable chance for some success. I heard this argument a couple times over the weekend. The thing is... Ryan wasn't even in the discussion of top QBs last year. A year ago, Brohm was the QB most teams/scouts lusted after. It just doesn't make any sense for a team to allow the prospects may or may not be available NEXT year dictate what they do in a draft THIS year. I can see maybe how it might come into play but so much can happen in a year of football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted April 29, 2008 Author Share Posted April 29, 2008 I think Ryan's arm strength is quite a bit better than Pennington's and I watched him play a couple of games and don't remember seeing balls "flutter" Have you seen his long passes coming down wet? The guy throws such a rainbow that it looks like he's cloud seeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 I heard this argument a couple times over the weekend. The thing is... Ryan wasn't even in the discussion of top QBs last year. A year ago, Brohm was the QB most teams/scouts lusted after. It just doesn't make any sense for a team to allow the prospects may or may not be available NEXT year dictate what they do in a draft THIS year. I can see maybe how it might come into play but so much can happen in a year of football. I agree completely. I just can't buy that as a good reason to do this. I just hope for their sake that there's something specific they see in the kid more than that he was the best of the bunch. Not to sound like a broken record but you can't dismiss the money factor. Top 5 pick QBs cost a fortune especially when you consider how rarely they pan out. Now you've got like $50 mil tied up in a guy and that's going to handcuff you if you find that you still need to address the position in a few years. The bad news is, more than any other position, there's a very good chance that he's not your answer. Statistically speaking, there's a much better chance that the other 4 guys taken in the top 5 are going to pan out for their teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 I don't get the anti-Gholston pick theories here. The guy is perfect for a 3-4 rush OLB role. I've seen his forty speed at both 4.56 and 4.65.... either way, that is enough to drop into coverage, although I suspect he won't be asked to do that often, at least as a rookie. He won't be taking any plays off on this Jets team either. Harris and Rhodes will see to that. He brings a legit pass rush threat that the Jets' D was sorely lacking. The TE pick.... well, if there was a legit 1st round WR in this draft, I'd like to know who it was, but Keller is basically a big WR. My guess is this was a pick based on matching up with NE.... a TE that can go underneath and cut up field as a deep threat too. The aging NE LB corp could have some trouble with a player like Keller. I was surprised by the pick, but I think it just might work out. In any case, too early to say. In any case, Baker is VERY much a JAP.... he is OK, but will never be a player any team will have to adjust their defenses to, while a guy like Keller may have to be accounted for. I'm not at all unhappy with the Jets' draft.... the DB from San Jose St just might be a great sleeper. As with any draft, grading it now is premature, but I'd give it a B at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolf Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 I don't get the anti-Gholston pick theories here. The guy is perfect for a 3-4 rush OLB role. I've seen his forty speed at both 4.56 and 4.65.... either way, that is enough to drop into coverage, although I suspect he won't be asked to do that often, at least as a rookie. He won't be taking any plays off on this Jets team either. Harris and Rhodes will see to that. He brings a legit pass rush threat that the Jets' D was sorely lacking. The TE pick.... well, if there was a legit 1st round WR in this draft, I'd like to know who it was, but Keller is basically a big WR. My guess is this was a pick based on matching up with NE.... a TE that can go underneath and cut up field as a deep threat too. The aging NE LB corp could have some trouble with a player like Keller. I was surprised by the pick, but I think it just might work out. In any case, too early to say. In any case, Baker is VERY much a JAP.... he is OK, but will never be a player any team will have to adjust their defenses to, while a guy like Keller may have to be accounted for. I'm not at all unhappy with the Jets' draft.... the DB from San Jose St just might be a great sleeper. As with any draft, grading it now is premature, but I'd give it a B at this point. Aaaah...Rovers has spoken. NOW I can close the book on the Jets draft and feel good about it. Thank you sir! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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