Patriots Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 So you're putting the onus of keeping Belichick from cheating on the other team? That's convenient. How about that he & his team just play by the same rules everyone else does? I am not justifying any of it. I was just making conversation. I say let the people hate. I just got season tickets this year and the only thing on my mind right now is..................79 days until training camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyalboyd Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 In all seriousness now. Does this sandal keep him out of the Hall of Fame. Or will this go as a slap on the wrist and he gets in hands down? To me cheating is cheating period. Whether its big or not. So in reality he's been cheating his way up the tree. And all the tapes he had he could use to refer back to when he played coaches over and over. You can change plays all day. But u got to go back to that play someday. Maybe he just memorized all of them for when they did come up in key situations. Especially if you taped this long and just getting caught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriots Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 In all seriousness now. Does this sandal keep him out of the Hall of Fame. Or will this go as a slap on the wrist and he gets in hands down? To me cheating is cheating period. Whether its big or not. So in reality he's been cheating his way up the tree. And all the tapes he had he could use to refer back to when he played coaches over and over. You can change plays all day. But u got to go back to that play someday. Maybe he just memorized all of them for when they did come up in key situations. Especially if you taped this long and just getting caught. I am a Pats fan and if was voting for the HOF I would probably not vote for him. I think someday when BB is long done with footballl he will write a tell all and we will all kearn the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanCT Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Videotaping defensive signals is not illegal. Every team is allowed to video tape their games, and they all do, and if you think the patriots were the only team to zoom in on defensive signals, you're crazy. Belichick did it from an illegal position on the field, and was rightly penalized with a fine and a loss of a first round draft pick for it. It wasn't a slap on the wrist by any means, and no matter how wild an imagination is, there was no second shooter in the grassy knoll on any of those tapes. It's a black eye to the organization and all their fans for sure, but it is not the unfathomable crime people want to make it out to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 the only thing on my mind right now is..................79 days until training camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonromig Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 IMO, the reason it took so long to get to this point was all the bickering between the lawyers as to how much money Matt Walsh gets for keeping his mouth shut about the real damaging tapes... the ones no one will ever know about. The commish will make those disappear even faster than the one showing the Jets, or these 'new' tapes. These tapes are presented to apease the public, the real damaging ones are gone in the name of league integrity, and Matt Walsh gets a boat load of cash to keep quiet, while signing papers to make sure he does. The Patriots cheated their way into better standings and through Superbowls, and now the NFL has to cover it up or all hades would break out. Teams, players, and fans would be screaming for changes to past records and Superbowl outcomes and this Commissioners tenure would be tarnished and short-lived. Ironic that the one season they actually had a team that could win without cheating, becomes the biggest chokers in all of sports history by losing the Superbowl. Sweet justice. Von Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Ironic that the one season they actually had a team that could win without cheating, becomes the biggest chokers in all of sports history by losing the Superbowl. Sweet justice. It came around... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackass Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 IMO, the reason it took so long to get to this point was all the bickering between the lawyers as to how much money Matt Walsh gets for keeping his mouth shut about the real damaging tapes... the ones no one will ever know about. The commish will make those disappear even faster than the one showing the Jets, or these 'new' tapes. And what exactly is 'your opinion' based on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriots Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 IMO, the reason it took so long to get to this point was all the bickering between the lawyers as to how much money Matt Walsh gets for keeping his mouth shut about the real damaging tapes... the ones no one will ever know about. The commish will make those disappear even faster than the one showing the Jets, or these 'new' tapes. These tapes are presented to apease the public, the real damaging ones are gone in the name of league integrity, and Matt Walsh gets a boat load of cash to keep quiet, while signing papers to make sure he does. The Patriots cheated their way into better standings and through Superbowls, and now the NFL has to cover it up or all hades would break out. Teams, players, and fans would be screaming for changes to past records and Superbowl outcomes and this Commissioners tenure would be tarnished and short-lived. Ironic that the one season they actually had a team that could win without cheating, becomes the biggest chokers in all of sports history by losing the Superbowl. Sweet justice. Von Good thing no one care about your opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriots Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 IMO, the reason it took so long to get to this point was all the bickering between the lawyers as to how much money Matt Walsh gets for keeping his mouth shut about the real damaging tapes... the ones no one will ever know about. The commish will make those disappear even faster than the one showing the Jets, or these 'new' tapes. These tapes are presented to apease the public, the real damaging ones are gone in the name of league integrity, and Matt Walsh gets a boat load of cash to keep quiet, while signing papers to make sure he does. The Patriots cheated their way into better standings and through Superbowls, and now the NFL has to cover it up or all hades would break out. Teams, players, and fans would be screaming for changes to past records and Superbowl outcomes and this Commissioners tenure would be tarnished and short-lived. Ironic that the one season they actually had a team that could win without cheating, becomes the biggest chokers in all of sports history by losing the Superbowl. Sweet justice. Von Also, but calling the Pats the biggest chokers in all of Sports you are doing an injustice to the Giants who won the Superbowl. The Pats did not choke. They were beaten by a better football team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolf Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 They were stealing D signals. The D has to get its signals in to the field ASAP since the O can go with a no-huddle offense or hurry to the LoS (in other words, the O controls the tempo of play and the D being reactive has to have its play in well beforehand), while the O has significantly more time to call a play. Knowing what D play/formation is called, the O can easily adjust its play to run a play that puts that particular D play/formation at a disadvantage. You know how some O plays just seem to go a long ways because they happen to be called and the D is in the wrong place at the wrong time - say a RB swing pass when the OLB on that side happens to be crashing the edge on a blitz, or the DT & MLB running a doo-dad and the O happens to be running a trap that allows the OG to negate both players with the same block? Well, if the O understands what the D will be doing before the O calls the play, thay can put in a play that takes specific advantage of that D. And it's not that difficult to do if you have the D signals - get the D play/formation in the first 5 seconds, run your play chart in the next 5 seconds, all while your O is in the huddle, and then 10-15 seconds to install the O play and get to the LoS. Well within the alloted time between plays that is allowed. If you've got a QB like Brady, he'll butcher a D when he knows what is coming. This is probably the single best post regarding Belicheat's taping as I have read. It truly breaks down the effect of his actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonromig Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Also, but calling the Pats the biggest chokers in all of Sports you are doing an injustice to the Giants who won the Superbowl. The Pats did not choke. They were beaten by a better football team. LOL... I don't see a 10-6 team that could not even win their division as the best team in the league in 2007. They were just the one that "any given Sunday" happen to favor at the right times. The Giants are nothing more than one of the Cinderella teams that make the Superbowl; ie Panthers, Raiders, Buccaneers, Bears, etc who falls all apart the next year... having fallen back to earth. On the other hand the Pats were 16-0 with a +17 point differencial against opponents... You can sooth the wounds of the lose by trying to be all humble and say, "The best team won."... but the fact is the Patriots choked so hard aliens in the Andromeda galaxy are going to create a new holiday based on the humor of this in a few 100,000 years when the radio signal reaches them. Biggest choke of all sports in all history. Von Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 How can anyone say the Pats choked? Because they overmatched NY enough (or should have) to easily overcome the effects of those 2 plays. In fact, the game should have been such at that time that those two plays only should have been a concern to guys playing the spread and whether the Giants would get a back door cover. The game was decided a lot earlier when NY came with so much pressure that Brady couldn't run his passing progressions and then got rattled. That's what put NY in a position to make those 2 plays make a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 BB, I'm not too bright sometimes. Could you please explain, in detail, how these tapes provided a significant competetive advantage? I understand how it's illegal so you can skip that part. If it does not create an advantage then why do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever in debt to mo lewis Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 great job bronco billy.... i mean...sgt ryan isnt around much right now...so somebody has to step up and spread the patriots hate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budlitebrad Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 This is probably the single best post regarding Belicheat's taping as I have read. It truly breaks down the effect of his actions. Yeah, but he's describing what every team does with stolen signals, not just the Patriots. And I bet there will still be teams using hand signals next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bring Back Pat!!! Posted May 8, 2008 Author Share Posted May 8, 2008 (edited) If it does not create an advantage then why do it? There's the potential for an advantage, and the advantage cannot be gained in the same game, it's gained (potentially) in future games. That is why they were saved, for future reference. If the advantage was to be gained in the same game, there'd be no reason to save the tapes. That is, if the oposing team does not change their signals. I can't imagine that anyone can possibly decipher signals in the same game to use as an advantage. Have you ever tried to steal a third base coaches signals during a game? Very dificult. IMHO And before you call me a homer, I've said all along they deserve everything they got as far as punishment. A rule is a rule whether you agree with it or not. Edited May 8, 2008 by Bring Back Pat!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriots Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 LOL... I don't see a 10-6 team that could not even win their division as the best team in the league in 2007. They were just the one that "any given Sunday" happen to favor at the right times. The Giants are nothing more than one of the Cinderella teams that make the Superbowl; ie Panthers, Raiders, Buccaneers, Bears, etc who falls all apart the next year... having fallen back to earth. On the other hand the Pats were 16-0 with a +17 point differencial against opponents... You can sooth the wounds of the lose by trying to be all humble and say, "The best team won."... but the fact is the Patriots choked so hard aliens in the Andromeda galaxy are going to create a new holiday based on the humor of this in a few 100,000 years when the radio signal reaches them. Biggest choke of all sports in all history. Von I think the Yankees losing to the Redsox is the biggest choke in the histroy of Sports. Being up 3-0 and then losing 4 straight is a lot harder to do than losing one game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 I am a Pats fan and if was voting for the HOF I would probably not vote for him. I think someday when BB is long done with footballl he will write a tell all and we will all kearn the truth. I doubt it. BB is very concerned about his place in NFL history and he'd much rather keep people guessing than admit that he cheated and tarnish his record. He's a HOF coach. Two rings as Giants D coordinator and three as the Pats HC puts him in the neighborhood of Walsh and Noll and above guys like Shula and Landry. I agree with that, except that I think the Giants def stepped it up to a level rarely seen. Didn't they sack McNabb something like 11 times in a game during the regular season? Agreed that they played at a very high level, but it didn't exactly come out of nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budlitebrad Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 If you look at Week 2 vs. GB and the NFC Championship vs. GB, you can clearly see how their defense evolved over the entire season. They also had a 10 game road win streak going into the SB, so it wasn't like they came out of nowhere. I also agree that BB is a HOF coach. I don't know how long it may take, but I'm sure he'll make it in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolf Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 I think the Yankees losing to the Redsox is the biggest choke in the histroy of Sports. Being up 3-0 and then losing 4 straight is a lot harder to do than losing one game. Sadly, I'd concur with this. If you are looking for a one game choke, the Soviets blew it in 1980 against Team USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 There's the potential for an advantage, and the advantage cannot be gained in the same game, it's gained (potentially) in future games. That is why they were saved, for future reference. If the advantage was to be gained in the same game, there'd be no reason to save the tapes. Actually, the storyline is that while they did indeed archive the tapes for future use, they also went through tapes at halftime and implemented their ill-gotten information in the 2nd half. You know - all those half time adjustments that Belichick is a reputed genius for making. All around crappy thing to do, and IMO yes it does keep Belichick out of the HoF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 I think it's dumb to say the Pats choked as it doesn't give credit to the Giants. The Pats were 18-0 going into that game, were probably the most complete team in the history of the NFL, and had already beaten the Giants in the regular season. With all due respect to the Giants, the Pats choked big-time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriots Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Actually, the storyline is that while they did indeed archive the tapes for future use, they also went through tapes at halftime and implemented their ill-gotten information in the 2nd half. You know - all those half time adjustments that Belichick is a reputed genius for making. All around crappy thing to do, and IMO yes it does keep Belichick out of the HoF. Not sure how feasible it would be to analyze 30 minutes of tape in the 30 or so mintues they get at halftime. But at the same time I am not saying that it didn't happen. At this point it would not suprise me if a story came out of a room at Gillette Stadium called the Library with every teams playbooks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bring Back Pat!!! Posted May 8, 2008 Author Share Posted May 8, 2008 Not sure how feasible it would be to analyze 30 minutes of tape in the 30 or so mintues they get at halftime. But at the same time I am not saying that it didn't happen. At this point it would not suprise me if a story came out of a room at Gillette Stadium called the Library with every teams playbooks. Oh, I agree with that. But the tapes from a previous game would be much more important than the tapes from that current game. I just can't see a coach being able to analyze the current tapes enough to get any valuable info. I think they either make a list of what signals they think are what going into the game, or comparie the current game with a game or two of archived info. I'm sure it was all categorized, as in, what were the signals in the game last year on 3rd and 10 from their own 20-40 yard line? Now, what were the signals this year in that same situation? Any common signals? Great, now we know a touch to the left arm is a Will blitz, etc, etc. But without the library, I think the current game's film is of little value until it can be analyzed. We're not talking 1 finger for fastball type of stuff here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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