Matt Walsh sends NFL 8 tapes

[Kid Cid]

"Walsh told HBO that his superiors coached him on how to evade NFL rules limiting the number of camera operators per team to two, and that team officials instructed him on ways to avoid detection."

 

 

 

That right there says it all. No way any Pats fan can try to defend this team anymore.

I've said this before but obviously people weren't listening or reading. No one in this thread defended what the Pats did, nor did anyone say that what they did wasn't wrong. What we have been capering on about is whether the advantage they gained via this videotaping was either:

 

1. So great that it made playing the games meaningless because every offensive play worked to perfection against a well known and and thoroughly deciphered defense, or

2. So small as to be worthless because knowing what play is coming has no bearing upon whether players are able to do the things they've been taught since grade school and execute the play called.

 

[AtomicCEO]

Either you're reading that wrong or I am. I took that to mean that the info was beneficial only 25% of the time not the other way around.

 

"I actually asked one of our quarterbacks if the information that I provided was beneficial in any way," Walsh told The Times. "He said, 'Actually, probably about 75 percent of the time, Tampa Bay ran the defense we thought they were going to run. If not more."

 

I don't see how you got confused by that.

 

I've said this before but obviously people weren't listening or reading. No one in this thread defended what the Pats did, nor did anyone say that what they did wasn't wrong. What we have been capering on about is whether the advantage they gained via this videotaping was either:

 

1. So great that it made playing the games meaningless because every offensive play worked to perfection against a well known and and thoroughly deciphered defense, or

2. So small as to be worthless because knowing what play is coming has no bearing upon whether players are able to do the things they've been taught since grade school and execute the play called.

 

Clearly it wasn't meaningless. Clearly. Sorry.

 

Maybe nobody is "defending" it by your definition, but you're certainly trying to minimize it while every piece of news that comes out makes it worse than it was before. Stop trying to minimize it because:

 

• Your arguments sound really silly to anyone who isn't a fan

• It's going to get worse before it gets better.

 

[Bronco Billy]

"Walsh told HBO that his superiors coached him on how to evade NFL rules limiting the number of camera operators per team to two, and that team officials instructed him on ways to avoid detection."

 

 

 

That right there says it all. No way any Pats fan can try to defend this team anymore.

 

You don't pay attention very well, do you?

 

Belichick could be caught on film and by a dozen eye witnesses cold bloodedly shooting an unknowing & helpless person in the head, and the Pats fans here would insist that the guy who was shot ran into the bullet, and besides that he had it coming and Belichick was only acting in self defense because the shot guy was thinking bad thoughts about Belichick, and so there's nothing wrong with shooting him.

Edited May 16, 2008 by Bronco Billy

[BeeR]

GB trampling this whole topic into the ground 50 times over.

[bigrocks]

Here’s a scenario…

 

In the 1st Quarter, NE faces 2nd and long against MIA. MIA’s defensive coaches in the box call a blitz from the strong side, and the play is signaled in from the sideline. Meanwhile, NE’s discrete “video staff” is recording the sideline defensive signals along with game time, down and distance. The play runs and Brady has to throw the ball away because of the pressure. Someone in the NE coaches box notes the play the defense ran along with the game time, down, and distance.

 

Within 10 or 15 minutes someone is breaking down the video and comparing it to notes made in the NE coach’s box. “At 8:10 in the 1st Quarter, MIA runs strong side blitz on 2nd and 9, using signal XYZ from Coach ABC.”

 

Fast forward to late in the 3rd Quarter, and NE faces a 3rd and 6 situation. MIA’s coaches again call a strong side blitz since it rattled Brady previously and signal it in from the sideline. NE has a pass play called, but as Brady is about to break the huddle, a voice crackles through the radio in his headset saying 3 words – “strong side blitz”. The NE offensive coaches in the box have seen the same defensive signal in the 1st quarter, know exactly what it means, and let Brady know. They have practiced this over and over, so with a few quick words he immediately changes the play to a run or screen to the strong side.

 

The play runs, and it’s the perfect play against the called defense. 1st down for NE, and the announcers shower Brady and Belichick with praise on calling another great play.

 

Cheating or using all the info you have at your disposal? Depends on your perspective, but to me its pretty clear they had figured something out and used it to their advantage. The key is the radio communication between the QB and the coaches. If they have ‘broken the code’ so to speak, they can easily communicate it to Brady real time as a play is being called.

 

How is that not a significant advantage? And even if they only get it right 25% of the time, in a close game that could be the difference between a W and a L. How many points separated the Pats from their opponents in the 3 Super Bowls they won?

[BeeR]

Don't know but 3 was enough to seperate them into SB losers this past season. Works for me.

[budlitebrad]

Here’s a scenario…

 

In the 1st Quarter, NE faces 2nd and long against MIA. MIA’s defensive coaches in the box call a blitz from the strong side, and the play is signaled in from the sideline. Meanwhile, NE’s discrete “video staff” is recording the sideline defensive signals along with game time, down and distance. The play runs and Brady has to throw the ball away because of the pressure. Someone in the NE coaches box notes the play the defense ran along with the game time, down, and distance.

 

Within 10 or 15 minutes someone is breaking down the video and comparing it to notes made in the NE coach’s box. “At 8:10 in the 1st Quarter, MIA runs strong side blitz on 2nd and 9, using signal XYZ from Coach ABC.”

 

Fast forward to late in the 3rd Quarter, and NE faces a 3rd and 6 situation. MIA’s coaches again call a strong side blitz since it rattled Brady previously and signal it in from the sideline. NE has a pass play called, but as Brady is about to break the huddle, a voice crackles through the radio in his headset saying 3 words – “strong side blitz”. The NE offensive coaches in the box have seen the same defensive signal in the 1st quarter, know exactly what it means, and let Brady know. They have practiced this over and over, so with a few quick words he immediately changes the play to a run or screen to the strong side.

 

The play runs, and it’s the perfect play against the called defense. 1st down for NE, and the announcers shower Brady and Belichick with praise on calling another great play.

 

Cheating or using all the info you have at your disposal? Depends on your perspective, but to me its pretty clear they had figured something out and used it to their advantage. The key is the radio communication between the QB and the coaches. If they have ‘broken the code’ so to speak, they can easily communicate it to Brady real time as a play is being called.

 

How is that not a significant advantage? And even if they only get it right 25% of the time, in a close game that could be the difference between a W and a L. How many points separated the Pats from their opponents in the 3 Super Bowls they won?

 

Even though I agree that it was blatant cheating, I still don't believe that they used the tapes in the same game. When you have dummy signal calls and signals that could be changed each quarter, I think it's unrealistic to think they could break it all down while the game is going on. It's more likely that it was used for future games, the same way the other teams use notes from advance scouts, except the videotapes made it easier and more streamlined in their game planning. It was an advantage, but let's not exaggerate it and say they knew every single defensive call within 15 minutes of taping the signal.

Edited May 16, 2008 by budlitebrad

[Duchess Jack]

I've said this before but obviously people weren't listening or reading. No one in this thread defended what the Pats did, nor did anyone say that what they did wasn't wrong. What we have been capering on about is whether the advantage they gained via this videotaping was either:

1. So great that it made playing the games meaningless because every offensive play worked to perfection against a well known and and thoroughly deciphered defense, or
   
2. So small as to be worthless because knowing what play is coming has no bearing upon whether players are able to do the things they've been taught since grade school and execute the play called.
   

 

 

QBs abilities to read a D and LBs abilities to read an O are invaluable. If they are lucky they guess right, make adjustments on the field as the play clock ticks away and they find themselves - at the very worst - in the right place at the right time.

 

Cheating Team - Taking away questions makes it Athletics v Athletics - except the team getting cheated does not know that the called play is not fooling anyone. I imagine that chances are taken in play calling that make a play more complicated to execute but allow for surprise. If the element of surprise is gone the added complications are for nothing.

 

Cheated Team - Athletics and knowing how the field is going to be defended - seems and such v Athletics and having to guess what the other team is going to do.

 

 

 

How can it not make a difference?

Edited May 16, 2008 by Duchess Jack

[budlitebrad]

Cheating Team - Taking away questions makes it Athletics v Athletics - except the team getting cheated does not that the called play is not fooling anyone. I imagine that chances are taken in play calling that make a play more complicated to execute but allow for surprise. If the element of surprise is gone the added complications are for nothing.

 

But what if a team got their opponents' signals from their advance scouts just watching and taking notes? Assuming the signals aren't changed, doesn't that take away the surprise as well?

[Duchess Jack]

But what if a team got their opponents' signals from their advance scouts just watching and taking notes? Assuming the signals aren't changed, doesn't that take away the surprise as well?

 

The advantage would be universal and available to everyone.

 

When one team gets an advantage through cheating that the other team does not get - then it destroys competative balance. Both teams could have the same coaches, players and plays and most games will go to the cheating team.

Edited May 16, 2008 by Duchess Jack

[budlitebrad]

The advantage would be universal and available to everyone.

 

When one team gets an advantage through cheating that the other team does not get - then it destroys competative balance. Both teams could have the same coaches, players and plays and most games will go to the cheating team.

 

Completely with you on that.

 

I just wanted to clarify that the stolen signals aren't the unfair advantage, since all teams can steal them. The camera is the advantage, in that you can gather more information on video than with a pencil and paper and it allows a team to scout/plan more efficiently once they edit all the footage.

Edited May 16, 2008 by budlitebrad

[forever in debt to mo lewis]

You don't pay attention very well, do you?

 

Belichick could be caught on film and by a dozen eye witnesses cold bloodedly shooting an unknowing & helpless person in the head, and the Pats fans here would insist that the guy who was shot ran into the bullet, and besides that he had it coming and Belichick was only acting in self defense because the shot guy was thinking bad thoughts about Belichick, and so there's nothing wrong with shooting him.

 

lololol....the patriots could be cleared of anymore wrong doing...and people such as yourself(jealous haters) will continue to type out time logs and scenarios on how the patriots could use tapes to their advantage in the same game....let he whos team didnt circumvent the salary cap cast the first stones bronco fan!

 

ok ok...i get it...belichick did something really wrong...i understand that..i accept it...i have to live with it...i understand that unless you are a lifelong friend of his(ernie adams) ,or a respected peer(scott pioli), he is probably difficult to work for and is probably not the most likeable person

 

but you have to be the dumbest person alive...and someone with a non existent footbal iq if you think that belichick is not going into the hall of fame...or that tom bradys career was made off of stealing signals....which i see some people still subscribe to

 

i see people talking about the 2002 afc title game...that we taped...in which kordell stewart sailed two balls over receivers heads because he sucks...and we scored two special teams touchdowns....did we steal signs from the special teams coach??

 

gimme a break...jimmy johnson has admitted that his cowboys used similar techniques(hell my pee wee coaches were doing the same thing 18 years ago)...matt walsh told goodell that he knew the jets videotaped signals...the dolphins were accused of stealing calls via helmet mics...blah blah...the colts pump in crowd noise...blah blah....ok we got caught....now every little nugget of info walsh drops to hbo is going to add fuel to the little fire for all you haters...and you think you are making a stronger case...

 

i think its absoulutley hilarious when someone actually calls tom bradys career into question over this...

 

i will reiterate....the patriots will be making annual superbowl runs for years to come

[Duchess Jack]

The Patriots accomplishements should be called no more into question than Barry Bonds' accomplishments.

 

There is no way to prove 'what could have been' what's done is done....

 

 

....with an asterik

[forever in debt to mo lewis]

You may view it as a fantasy, and seeing how its your team being implicated, I am not surprised, but I believe it completely. Is Brady a good QB? Absolutely. Would he have had the career he's had without the benefit of B@stard Bill and his magical video machine? No way.

 

Obviously there is no way to prove any of this now, but I was at two Patriot road games during Brady's first year as starter - the very season they beat the Rams in a truly mystifying Super Bowl. Game one was in Miami and Brady looked like a lost puppy. Couldn't find an open receiver to save his life, had less than 100 yards passing and lost a couple of fumbles – oh and the Fins won by 20 points. Game two was later in the season at Denver. Again, Tommy Boy looked like he should have been chucking peanuts in the stands instead of QBing an NFL team. He threw 5 INTs that game, 4 in the 4th quarter.

 

I distinctly recall thinking as I stood in the new Mile High stadium -- Brady might be something in a few years, but he’s got a lot to learn about reading NFL defenses.

 

Lo and behold, the light bulb came on for Tommy that very season and the rest is history, including a Super Bowl victory and game MVP? I’m sorry, but I’m throwing the BS flag. I thought something was fishy then, but had no idea what or how it could be. Not until last September that is.

 

i hate to quote this again...but im sorry....this just cracks me up too much

 

this guys talking about 2 of bradys first 5 nfl starts here....both of them on the road....against two teams hes historically had some troubles against....like it proves something....and he even thought something was "fishy" way back then!! but he also thought "maybe brady might be something in a few years"....lol yer a genius guy!!

[AtomicCEO]

but you have to be the dumbest person alive...and someone with a non existent footbal iq

 

 

Thank for the lulz, genius.

[Czarina]

Once again, SO why did the Pats do it? Just for craps and giggles?? NO they did it because they got an advantage - there is no other reason. Wake up.

Of course there's another reason. However, nobody wants to listen to anything at all besides making themselves all high and mighty. Nobody really wants to listen to anything but some stupid testosterone driven chest pounding, so why should I bother to try? I've purposely stayed out of these stupid threads for a long time. Many of you are convinced that Belichick must have some special voodoo to make better use of this than anyone else. So be it.

 

This has much to do with why I'm around here a lot less these days. Seems like it was a good choice.

[HowboutthemCowboys]

Of course there's another reason. However, nobody wants to listen to anything

I'll listen....what was the reason?

[Bronco Billy]

Of course there's another reason. However, nobody wants to listen to anything at all besides making themselves all high and mighty. Nobody really wants to listen to anything but some stupid testosterone driven chest pounding, so why should I bother to try?

 

I respect your opinion as much as anyone else's on this board, and more that most.

 

Put forth your facts, make your argument, and convince me.

[gbpfan1231]

Of course there's another reason. However, nobody wants to listen to anything at all besides making themselves all high and mighty. Nobody really wants to listen to anything but some stupid testosterone driven chest pounding, so why should I bother to try? I've purposely stayed out of these stupid threads for a long time. Many of you are convinced that Belichick must have some special voodoo to make better use of this than anyone else. So be it.

 

This has much to do with why I'm around here a lot less these days. Seems like it was a good choice.

SO what is the reason? I seriously can't think of any reason for doing something you know is illegal if you don't gain something by it?? If there is a reason I would love to hear it and hopefully it is good and would shed some light on why the Pats did this.

Edited May 17, 2008 by gbpfan1231

[AtomicCEO]

I respect your opinion as much as anyone else's on this board, and more that most.

 

Put forth your facts, make your argument, and convince me.

 

I agree. Czar, nobody is trying to be personal... it just seems like an unusual argument, that somehow the Pats cheated without benefiting from it.

[bigrocks]

i hate to quote this again...but im sorry....this just cracks me up too much

 

this guys talking about 2 of bradys first 5 nfl starts here....both of them on the road....against two teams hes historically had some troubles against....like it proves something....and he even thought something was "fishy" way back then!! but he also thought "maybe brady might be something in a few years"....lol yer a genius guy!!

 

Its posts like this and fans like this I will be fondly remembering when the Pats so-called dynasty is permanently laid to rest. Perhaps I will change my login name to "Forever in Debt to Vernon Gholston" when said LB separates Tommy Boy's head from his body. Good times!

[forever in debt to mo lewis]

Its posts like this and fans like this I will be fondly remembering when the Pats so-called dynasty is permanently laid to rest. Perhaps I will change my login name to "Forever in Debt to Vernon Gholston" when said LB separates Tommy Boy's head from his body. Good times!

 

dont hold your breathe, sport!!!

 

posts like this? fans like this?....what about your post?

 

again...you are the one making claims about tom bradys career being a sham based on two of his first 5 nfl starts...on the road....against teams hes historically struggled against in their venues...

[keggerz]

dont hold your breathe, sport!!!

 

posts like this? fans like this?....what about your post?

 

again...you are the one making claims about tom bradys career being a sham based on two of his first 5 nfl starts...on the road....against teams hes historically struggled against in their venues...

can you at least acknowledge that Bill has "tarnished" the Pats franchise?

[piratesownninjas]

can you at least acknowledge that Bill has "tarnished" the Pats franchise?

They're talking about Brady, not about BB.

[keggerz]

They're talking about Brady, not about BB.

FIDTML is a Pats fan that I believe has "swept" spygate under the rug before so I stand by my question to him