Kevin Jones

[Seahawks21]

 

No NFL vet player who is "proven" takes a contract like that - especially a RB - unless they are desperate (see guys like Ron Dayne when they went to DEN). They understand better than anyone how tenuous and short their money making opportunity is. If they are taking this deal, they do not consider themselves starting material. If they are sure they will start, they wait out the process for injuries and then sign for more than the vet minimum. If they are just looking for a chance of any kind to get some work and enhance their value (like Dayne did when he went to HOU), then they do what Jones did.

Any examples of this?? Do any running backs come to mind that were out of work and were actively looking, were offered a contract for a team they have a chance to start for, and turned it down? So, if you were Kevin Jones, you would have turned this down because you could have made 500k more somewhere else down the road? Give me a break.

 

Reality... Kevin Jones and his agent knew that there was little to no money coming this year no matter what he did or how long they wait. This is simply the RB market for this season, this has nothing to do with talent or needs or anything else. They decided the best he could do was to get his butt on the field and try to find a good situation in hopes of parlaying this season's success into a bigger deal next year.

 

I still don't understand how you figure any NFL RB doesn't consider himself "starter material". What the heck does that have to do with anything at all? Are you saying if you were Kevin Jones you would hold out for starter money? Sorry to burst your bubble, but he isn't going to get a multi-year, multi-million dollar contract from any team in the NFL. But he should hold out for that and not accept the Bears offer?? What bargaining strenght does he have to make such a claim?

 

The Bears are taking little risk with high reward potential. Jones didn't have a choice, this was his best option. I don't understand what part of this logic is confusing to you. I'm not trying to be an arse, and I'm trying to understand, maybe I'm just missing your point completely.

[peepinmofo]

I dont know if this is relevant or not, but at one point, Jones claims he was offered a contract, but he didnt like it. If that was Chicago, then that means he settled for what he supposedly didnt want after stating on Sirius that he was offered a contract but it wasnt the deal he wanted. If it was PIT that offered it, then that means he still settled in CHI for a better situation.

 

I agree with BB in that he should have asked for a few extra bucks for incentives, but at the same time, maybe he just figured what the hell. He plays one year, proves he can be the guy in CHI, and then either reups in CHI, or goes elsewhere for the big paycheck.

 

I dont know what negotiations there could have been if you just play for a salary and only one year.

[Bronco Billy]

But he should hold out for that and not accept the Bears offer?? What bargaining strenght does he have to make such a claim?

 

We're being told he's going to be the starter. That gives him tremendous leverage over a vet min. contract.

[Seahawks21]

We're being told he's going to be the starter. That gives him tremendous leverage over a vet min. contract.

How so? If the going rate for a veteran RB this year, ala Kevin Jones, is less than a million, should the Bears automatically pay more simply because they actually plan on using him? I agree, they are getting a bargain, an absolute steal. That said, there is no other team out there driving his market higher. The Bears have the only true job opening in the NFL that figures to supply some actual playing time. If a RB wants to try and get that spot, since it is literally the only one, that RB has to agree with whatever the Bears terms are. If Jones would have waited for a big contract, he would be out of the NFL this season. It is that simple.

 

His worth and his market are two different values entirely.

Edited July 17, 2008 by Seahawks21

[Bronco Billy]

How so? If the going rate for Kevin Jones is less than a million, should they automatically pay more if they actually plan on using him?

 

That's exactly the argument. If the going rate is the vet minimum for a make-good contract with no incentives, then he is not being viewed as a starter. If he's not being viewed as a starter, then by default CHI is looking at starting Forte and using Jones as a backup. If Jones were negotiating from any position of strength - ie, that he would or reasonable could be the starter because CHI didn't have better options - then his contract would be better, especially since we have been informed that Jones has a body of work for being an effective starting RB in the NFL.

[Brentastic]

How so? If the going rate for Kevin Jones is less than a million, should they automatically pay more if they actually plan on using him?

You need logic to figure this out - good luck

[Goopster24]

Didn't read the whole thread. Who said KJ will be the starter come first week?

[Bronco Billy]

Didn't read the whole thread. Who said KJ will be the starter come first week?

 

That would be DemonKnight, pg 3

[Goopster24]

Well that is clearly speculation. He first has to get ready for training camp, which he isn't right now. I say Forte gets more carries week one then Jones but wouldn't be surprised if something else goes down. Wrote about here:

 

blog

 

Benson was tabbed the started by coach. Then was cut and Forte was the starter coming out of OTA's. KJ has to prove a good amount with an unhealthy body going into the regular season.

[DemonKnight]

That would be DemonKnight, pg 3

 

Its just my opinion on the matter. If KJ goes through pre-season without being named starter I would be surprised. So you are saying that he is still hurt and all that stuff said about his OTA's was smoke? Or are you saying that Forte is a better back and will beat KJ out injury or none? Jones has a nose for the endzone and is a workhorse. I have a feeling that for 1% of your auction, you'd take the flyer.

 

If I'm wrong then remind me mid season, I'll be sure I eat my crow.

[Bronco Billy]

Its just my opinion on the matter. If KJ goes through pre-season without being named starter I would be surprised. So you are saying that he is still hurt and all that stuff said about his OTA's was smoke? Or are you saying that Forte is a better back and will beat KJ out injury or none? Jones has a nose for the endzone and is a workhorse. I have a feeling that for 1% of your auction, you'd take the flyer.

 

If I'm wrong then remind me mid season, I'll be sure I eat my crow.

 

You could be right. I just don't place much value on Jones, especially coming off an injury, and the Bears apparently agree.

 

I am saying Forte is a better RB. I'm not impressed by a 3.7 ypc in the past 3 years that Jones' has posted. I'm not impressed that he's missed 10 games in that same time, with at least 3 misses in each year. I'm not impressed that he couldn't turn in better numbers rushing when he played in a Martz O, where the rushing lanes get significantly wider as the passing O spreads the field. I'm not impressed by his statement that he'll be ready for non-contact drills by the time TC starts.

 

I am impressed by Forte. I like that he has a complete game, I like that he runs between the tackles and through trash, I like that he can break off the big play at any time in a game. I like that he'll gobble up a lot of work if asked to do so. I like his catching ability out of the backfield. I like that he will stick his nose in and man-up blocking in the backfield rather than cutting a rusher or worse using an ole' block. I like that the Bears' coaching staff already likes what they've seen of him.

 

And I've eaten crow here before and will do it again if I'm wrong, probably having to in multiple threads.

[Seahawks21]

That's exactly the argument. If the going rate is the vet minimum for a make-good contract with no incentives, then he is not being viewed as a starter. If he's not being viewed as a starter, then by default CHI is looking at starting Forte and using Jones as a backup. If Jones were negotiating from any position of strength - ie, that he would or reasonable could be the starter because CHI didn't have better options - then his contract would be better, especially since we have been informed that Jones has a body of work for being an effective starting RB in the NFL.

So....if you are a GM that can get a good player for the veteran minimum, you are supposed to offer him more money for no reason whatsoever??

 

His playing time is completely irrelevant, starter or not. The cost and market determine his price, not his role on the team. I mean, do you really think that?? I now think I understand what you are getting at, and I am alarmed that I actually tried to debate this topic with someone with as insane and unbelievable of a view. Wow. You really think that Chicago should have paid him more money if they had planned on using him as their starter? Wow. Wow. Double wow. Thanks for that complete waste of time. Unbelievable.

 

Now that I read that again, that is one of the funniest things I've ever heard on these boards.

 

"Mr. Jones, will you sign for the minimum?"

 

"Yes."

 

"Well then here ya go, 26 million over six years!"

 

"Hey thanks, that was awfully considerate of you."

Edited July 17, 2008 by Seahawks21

[Chief]

Never thought Id say this, but I agree with Seahawks. Jones has the best oppurtunity in Chicago, especially with a glutton of quality backs on the market. Had Jones waited, demanded more, you might have very well seen S.A. in Chicago, and Jones on the outside looking in. Jones is starter material, a very capable back who is definitely looking to prove himself this year in order to get a longer, more lucrative contract next year.

Jones isnt a fool and he knows the market value is low right now, I hope he kicks some butt and gets his reward in the end.

[Goopster24]

Its just my opinion on the matter. If KJ goes through pre-season without being named starter I would be surprised. So you are saying that he is still hurt and all that stuff said about his OTA's was smoke? Or are you saying that Forte is a better back and will beat KJ out injury or none? Jones has a nose for the endzone and is a workhorse. I have a feeling that for 1% of your auction, you'd take the flyer.

 

If I'm wrong then remind me mid season, I'll be sure I eat my crow.

 

I'm not sure what the argument is over his contract, but I will say this: I'd be shocked if week one KJ is the starter. I just don't see it. Why would they draft a guy without giving him the shot to succeed early on? Forte has said it, Lovie and Jerry have said it, and KJ knows it. KJ will have every opportunity to get carries and even steal carries. That's not a bad thing. Season might go on and KJ takes the bulk but who knows, especially with his injury status.

 

I like everything I have seen and heard from Forte. The kid was on NFL Network last night and was great. Very soft spoken and straight to business. I like that.

 

Which smoke exactly are you talking about? I think Forte beats out KJ simply. Sure, I'd take the flyer on KJ, but I'm talking Bear football and who I believe to see week one with the first carry in the game at Indy.

[Caveman_Nick]

t. Why would they draft a guy without giving him the shot to succeed early on?

 

This happens all the time. Why do people continue to ask this question year after year. Even AD didn't start right away. Coaches like veteran players...it's just a fact of NFL life.

[Goopster24]

That was a poorly phrased thought.

 

I know it happens all the time but Lovie and Jerry have said that they intend to throw Forte into the mix right away and they expect big things from him right away, ESPECIALLY after Benson was let go.

[Chief]

That was a poorly phrased thought.

 

I know it happens all the time but Lovie and Jerry have said that they intend to throw Forte into the mix right away and they expect big things from him right away, ESPECIALLY after Benson was let go.

 

 

Your key words, especially after. Im not going to pretend to know whats going on in Chicago, but my guess is not putting all thier eggs in one basket as Forte is UNPROVEN, hence KJ.

[Bronco Billy]

So....if you are a GM that can get a good player for the veteran minimum, you are supposed to offer him more money for no reason whatsoever??

 

Jesus Christ. You have to be fishing. You really can't be this dense.

 

No, the player demands more because he is going to bring more to the table than just a reserve RB. Then the management says, "You know what, he does bring more value to the team than just the vet minimum", or "You know, if he does get 1200 total yds this year we ought to be paying him another $250K (when they actually know if this happens that they should be paying him another $1.5M +/-)", and because he does bring more value than just a reserve, the team pays him the additional compensation because they don't want him to sign with another team and because he will be a more valuable asset to the team than just a reserve and the compensation still comes at a bargain price.

 

What, do you honestly think that the team just sets the contract for a player and the player and his agent have no input or bargaining power at all? If Jones is a legit starting RB at the NFL level, then he pretty much just pissed away 10% to 15% of his career compensation with this minimum vet contract signing. That he's working for the vet minimum means that despite his 4 year body of work to date, he still has a hell of a lot to prove to NFL teams, even though there are some FF owners who are sure he's a very good RB. If a player and his agent agree to work for vet minimum wages, they are doing so because they know that they have no leverage whatsoever and are happy just to have a contract - any contract.

 

Now I'm done arguing about this facet. I've explained it as best I can, and if you can't either comprehend this simple idea or are so set in the sureness that you are correct despite all logic to the contrary, there's no point in moving forward on this.

Edited July 18, 2008 by Bronco Billy

[Caveman_Nick]

That was a poorly phrased thought.

 

I know it happens all the time but Lovie and Jerry have said that they intend to throw Forte into the mix right away and they expect big things from him right away, ESPECIALLY after Benson was let go.

 

Coaches always say that.

[gsmayes]

KJ has had a solid career to this point, but he's coming off an major injury. Don't you think that affects his asking price? His goal for this year was to sign a short term deal with a team where can compete for a starting job. If his health holds up and he proves that he's still a starter in this league, then he's a free agent again next year and he'll get a better contract. Of course, by your logic, low round draft picks will never be good, because they were a low round draft pick.

[Bronco Billy]

Of course, by your logic, low round draft picks will never be good, because they were a low round draft pick.

 

 

How the hell do you jump to this conclusion? Jones has an extensive body of work at the NFL level. NFL teams can look at exactly how he is capable of playing in the NFL against NFL competition, and the best offer he could get was a one year, make-good vet minimum, no incentives contract.

 

How does that compare to a rookie who lasted until later rounds because they graded out for whatever reasons as less than one of the elite players at their respective position in college, and have absolutely no NFL resume?

 

Man, Matt Jones seems to have a lot of buddies on this board...

Edited July 18, 2008 by Bronco Billy

[The Wolf]

 

If Forte hits the "wall" by the end of the preseason, I'd better get my arse to work trading him before anyone else finds out.

 

+1 Same here. NO NFL player should hit a wall by the end of preseason.

[Brentastic]

This thread needs to die! It's not the hard people. If he were completely healthy then his agent would have pushed for a better contract AND other teams would have been willing to pony up more money. But the fact that the Bears and K Jones himself signed for the Vet minimum says a lot. It's not too difficult to figure out.

[Seahawks21]

Jesus Christ. You have to be fishing. You really can't be this dense.

 

No, the player demands more because he is going to bring more to the table than just a reserve RB. Then the management says, "You know what, he does bring more value to the team than just the vet minimum", or "You know, if he does get 1200 total yds this year we ought to be paying him another $250K (when they actually know if this happens that they should be paying him another $1.5M +/-)", and because he does bring more value than just a reserve, the team pays him the additional compensation because they don't want him to sign with another team and because he will be a more valuable asset to the team than just a reserve and the compensation still comes at a bargain price.

 

What, do you honestly think that the team just sets the contract for a player and the player and his agent have no input or bargaining power at all? If Jones is a legit starting RB at the NFL level, then he pretty much just pissed away 10% to 15% of his career compensation with this minimum vet contract signing. That he's working for the vet minimum means that despite his 4 year body of work to date, he still has a hell of a lot to prove to NFL teams, even though there are some FF owners who are sure he's a very good RB. If a player and his agent agree to work for vet minimum wages, they are doing so because they know that they have no leverage whatsoever and are happy just to have a contract - any contract.

 

Now I'm done arguing about this facet. I've explained it as best I can, and if you can't either comprehend this simple idea or are so set in the sureness that you are correct despite all logic to the contrary, there's no point in moving forward on this.

What planet does the football that you watch take place on??

 

Seriously?? Jones should have not taken that contract?? Have you not seen the market for RB's this year!??! ? I value your opinion, but it is flat wrong, not truthful, not accurate. That is just about all that is left to say. Wow.

Edited July 18, 2008 by Seahawks21

[SteelBunz]

BB....I'm not sure I subscribe to your yardage-based bonus theory. Especially at high yardages of 1500 and 2000. No way a GM/coach allows a running back to reach these bonuses. It's easy enough to decrease his carries toward the end of the year....bring along an unknown into the mix.

 

Your coach is a master at it.....LOL. Shanny would always choose to have 2 RBs hit 800-1000 yards INSTEAD of one guy above 1500. He does it all the time to dangle a potential starting RB as trade bait in the following year's draft.

 

There's a glut of vet RB FAs right now and most of them aren't rehabbing from a tough injury. I think KJ made a good choice to just get somewhere he could start and make an impact and have leverage for a contract next year. (More like Lewis in Cleveland.) He's lucky Benson was such an idiot.