Brady/Moss chicken or the egg?

[rai]

Last year Brady first with Moss he throws 4800 yards and 50 TDs Prior to Moss Brady was ~26 TDs per year.

 

Moss last year 1500 yards and 23 TDs

 

this year no Brady, Moss has 12 for 163 yards one TD

 

Moss is on the pace for 652 yards and 4 TDs (similar to his stats in Oakland 2006)

 

 

I don't expect Moss to suck it up that bad, but I saw him not even reach for a pass yesterday makes me think this is not a happy marrage, I don't see Moss catching passes across the middle like many WRs to get the tough grabs in traffic.

 

I love the Moss Man, but he's not going to play well with this QB Cassel and I'd sell him if Moss was on my team.

 

See also Steve Smith last year didn't do anything with sub-par Qbs

[Caveman_Nick]

Moss needs to sprinkle some MiracleGro™ on his arms. They have gotten short in the offseason.

[whomper]

This is why Moss will never be Jerry Rice no matter how many records he breaks. Moss is great when the getting is good but shows his true colors when the chips are down. T.O does the same thing to an extent but I feel he has slightly turned the corner in that regard. . Moss just quits on his teams. Moss has the best hands I have ever seen on a wr but he is a quitter and has zero heart.

Edited September 22, 2008 by whomper

[Caveman_Nick]

This is why Moss will never be Jerry Rice no matter how many records he breaks. Moss is great when the getting is good but shows his true colors when the chips are down. T.O does the same thing to an extent but I feel he has slightly turned the corner in that regard. . Moss just quits on his teams. Moss has the best hands I have ever seen on a wr but he is a quitter and has zero heart.

 

 

What's sad to me is that Moss could have taken Brady's injury and stepped into the role of Team Leader. It could have been his moment to cement himself as truly an all around great player. They only place he's going to lead this team playing like that is a Prosthetics Clinic specializing in arm lengtheners.

[SuperCharger]

Brady was a HOF QB before Moss. Moss needs a QB like Brady to make it to the HOF.

[Big John]

 

Remember Moss6 had the name Moss=6 unless he pouts.

[rai]

don't get it, I didn't see all the game but one play he didin't even put his hands up for the ball. does he expect the ball to magically drop into his pocket?

[detlef]

See also Steve Smith last year didn't do anything with sub-par Qbs

Last year, Steve Smith had 87 catches for 1000 yds and 7 TDs. That put him in league with some pretty decent WRs who had the luxury of catching passes from pretty much the same guy all year long who's name wasn't David Carr.

 

That's more yards and one less TD than Santonio Holmes and 150 more yards and 2 more TDs than Roy Williams.

 

Considering the situation, I'd say that's not a bad showing.

[T-Scorp]

This is why Moss will never be Jerry Rice no matter how many records he breaks. Moss is great when the getting is good but shows his true colors when the chips are down. T.O does the same thing to an extent but I feel he has slightly turned the corner in that regard. . Moss just quits on his teams. Moss has the best hands I have ever seen on a wr but he is a quitter and has zero heart.

 

 

Ummmmm who were Jerry's QB's??? Oh that's right TWO HOF QB"S.... Talk about great when the getting is good. Whomp are you still high from last nights victory over the Packers? Defenses are shutting Moss down because Cassel can't get the ball to him. Moss excelled with QB's like Johnson, Cunningham (who was a tile contractor and out of football in 97), J George, and D Culpepper. He finally gets to play with HOF caliber QB in Brady and what does he do? Sets the WR TD record.

 

Of course Moss will never be Rice but Rice will never be Moss.... Hate on Moss all you want... love Rice is you want but your comparison is not very valid.

[rai]

Last year, Steve Smith had 87 catches for 1000 yds and 7 TDs. That put him in league with some pretty decent WRs who had the luxury of catching passes from pretty much the same guy all year long who's name wasn't David Carr.

 

That's more yards and one less TD than Santonio Holmes and 150 more yards and 2 more TDs than Roy Williams.

 

Considering the situation, I'd say that's not a bad showing.

here are some stats for SS last year

 

1 catch 10 yards

5 catch 32 yards

4 for 47

2 for 18

3 for 15

6 for 47

6 for 44

 

etc.

 

One game SS had 150+ yards and 3TDs that helped his year totals but take that one game away and he was nothing, most games he was like 40-ish yards and no TDs, after week 2 (no Jake) SS had only 3 TDs for the rest of the season (14 games)

Edited September 22, 2008 by rai

[Bronco Billy]

Moss has been a front runner his entire career. When things are going good & he's getting lots of love from his QB he plays lights out and is virtually unstoppable. When things go sour and he's not getting as many targets, he craps out, pouts, and starts looking for excuses. I'm not sure why this surprises anyone. He's done it in two locations before NE.

 

My regret is that I thought NE would be a strong team this year so I drafted him in 2 leagues. Now without Brady, with Cassel's incompetence, NE sucking, and Moss not gettinng enough looks, Randy is reverting to form.

[Caveman_Nick]

Moss has been a front runner his entire career. When things are going good & he's getting lots of love from his QB he plays lights out and is virtually unstoppable. When things go sour and he's not getting as many targets, he craps out, pouts, and starts looking for excuses. I'm not sure why this surprises anyone. He's done it in two locations before NE.

 

My regret is that I thought NE would be a strong team this year so I drafted him in 2 leagues. Now without Brady, with Cassel's incompetence, NE sucking, and Moss not gettinng enough looks, Randy is reverting to form.

 

 

They guy might not be a world-beater, but how can he prove anything when the WR won't raise his hands to catch the ball?

 

M. Cassel 19/31 131 1 1

 

It's not a terrific statline, but it's not terrible. Sure, he made some bad throws yesterday. They all do. He also made plenty of good throws that were just not caught. And by all rights he should have a RuTD on his statline from yesterday. Terrible call on a nice play my Cassel. I never knew "in the endzone" really meant "in the grasp"

[polksalet]

Jerry Rice's droppings have more talent that Randy Moss bong filled dreams.

[Bronco Billy]

 

They guy might not be a world-beater, but how can he prove anything when the WR won't raise his hands to catch the ball?

 

M. Cassel 19/31 131 1 1

 

It's not a terrific statline, but it's not terrible.

 

This is 2008, not 1958. 131 yds passing is a terrible stat line given the way rules are slanted to the passing offense. That stat line looks like something out of a Michael Vick game, not a Pats' game.

 

C'mon, Nick. You're smarter than that.

[detlef]

here are some stats for SS last year

 

1 catch 10 yards

5 catch 32 yards

4 for 47

2 for 18

3 for 15

6 for 47

6 for 44

 

etc.

 

One game SS had 150+ yards and 3TDs that helped his year totals but take that one game away and he was nothing, most games he was like 40-ish yards and no TDs, after week 2 (no Jake) SS had only 3 TDs for the rest of the season (14 games)

By "etc" do you mean, "Every other game he did better than this"?

 

A sampling of the "etc" games:

10 for 136

5 for 61

8 for 64

8 for 72

10 for 150

 

And what exactly do you expect? Did you see David Carr in those games? I live in NC and don't have Direct TV, so I sure as hell did and it was nothing short of hideous. 6 of Smith's 8 games where he failed to gain 50 yds were games where Carr played. So, if your point is that Smith is not capable of putting up numbers when a guy who completely sucks is in at QB, then perhaps you have a point. Mind you, no WR is going to do much if the QB can't get him the ball. Look at Carr's stats in those games. The most he threw for in any of them was 155, so it's not like anyone else was catching balls. Oh right, there's that as well. Carolina didn't have anything resembling a decent #2 option so now you have a really bad QB and a D that knows they only need to cover one guy. Sure sounds like Smith's fault to me.

 

Only, you didn't say horrible, you said sub-par. Vinny T was signed on a Thursday, started that Sunday and Smith went for 10 and 136. Rookie Matt Moore comes in and he again puts up good numbers. That's hardly Smith getting fat on great QB play now is it.

 

Oh, and he only played 13 games after those first two.

 

Smith has baggage, but if you're implying that he mails it in when things aren't going great, you're dead wrong.

[whomper]

Ummmmm who were Jerry's QB's??? Oh that's right TWO HOF QB"S.... Talk about great when the getting is good. Whomp are you still high from last nights victory over the Packers? Defenses are shutting Moss down because Cassel can't get the ball to him. Moss excelled with QB's like Johnson, Cunningham (who was a tile contractor and out of football in 97), J George, and D Culpepper. He finally gets to play with HOF caliber QB in Brady and what does he do? Sets the WR TD record.

 

Of course Moss will never be Rice but Rice will never be Moss.... Hate on Moss all you want... love Rice is you want but your comparison is not very valid.

 

 

What does his QBs have to do with not lifting his hands to make a catch anymore ? I dont really have much of an opinion on Moss. He has affected my watching football minimally as a Boys fan although he has had hugh gam,es against us. I despised Rice for the games he had against Dallas which directly affected me as a fan more than any Moss game. But I always respected Jerry heart and Moss has none. Its going to be a long season of watching him quit and pout and not try enjoy it Waterman

[Caveman_Nick]

This is 2008, not 1958. 131 yds passing is a terrible stat line given the way rules are slanted to the passing offense. That stat line looks like something out of a Michael Vick game, not a Pats' game.

 

C'mon, Nick. You're smarter than that.

 

Nothing to do with smarts. I was at the game. Cassel got killed all day long and certain receivers weren't going out of their way to catch the ball. Both things are a recipe for that statline on their own.

 

Cassel is doing fine.

 

Yesterday there were three major failings for the patriots. 1) The defense was terrible. 2) The o-line had tremendous protection problems and 3) Moss lost motor control of his upper limbs, which has been speculated is related somehow to a "heart condition"

 

The analysis "Cassel Sucks" is elementary and not accurate. Cassel was at worst their 4th problem on that list. He's certainly not the goat people are trying to make him out to be IMO.

[Bill Swerski]

As much as I can't stand T.O.'s attitude, he's a much better overall wideout than Moss. He may be a cancer in the locker room, but he does everything asked of him on the field. He catches balls over the middle, he doesn't hit the turf on contact, he blocks almost as well as Ward, and even in his mid-30's, he's still getting behind CBs on deep routes.

[detlef]

As much as I can't stand T.O.'s attitude, he's a much better overall wideout than Moss. He may be a cancer in the locker room, but he does everything asked of him on the field. He catches balls over the middle, he doesn't hit the turf on contact, he blocks almost as well as Ward, and even in his mid-30's, he's still getting behind CBs on deep routes.

Wasn't that him that out ran the DB chasing Felix Jones on the TD last night to lay that block? I mean, it probably didn't matter because it looked like the guy wasn't going to catch him but I was pretty amazed.

[rai]

.

 

Smith has baggage, but if you're implying that he mails it in when things aren't going great, you're dead wrong.

I was trying to say SS without a good QB was not very good (most of the year) and same think I would say Cassel is no Tom Brady, no one fears him so Moss could have a bad year.

 

No matter what you say, I was a SS owner last year and from week 3 to 17 he caught 3 TDs that means he was too bad to play and too good to drop and no one wanted him in a trade.

 

dead wood and SS was maybe the number 1 or 2 WR drafted last year just like Moss was this year that's the only reason I was talking about SS since I was an owner last year I know he was too bad to start.

Edited September 22, 2008 by rai

[T-Scorp]

What does his QBs have to do with not lifting his hands to make a catch anymore ? I dont really have much of an opinion on Moss. He has affected my watching football minimally as a Boys fan although he has had hugh gam,es against us. I despised Rice for the games he had against Dallas which directly affected me as a fan more than any Moss game. But I always respected Jerry heart and Moss has none. Its going to be a long season of watching him quit and pout and not try enjoy it Waterman

 

 

Honestly, I was at the Viking game so I did not see the play in question.... We all know Moss has never gone over the middle so why are we expecting anything different?

 

My thought was based on the title of the thread meaning Brady made Moss last year... which I concur with but my point was what would Jerry have been with out Montana and Young??

[Bronco Billy]

The analysis "Cassel Sucks" is elementary and not accurate. Cassel was at worst their 4th problem on that list. He's certainly not the goat people are trying to make him out to be IMO.

 

The only conclusion that I can come to when Pennington outplays him by a wide margin is that Cassel sucks. There is a growing body of evidence from preseason performances that is now bleeding into regular season performances that fully supports this conclusion.

[Bill Swerski]

Wasn't that him that out ran the DB chasing Felix Jones on the TD last night to lay that block? I mean, it probably didn't matter because it looked like the guy wasn't going to catch him but I was pretty amazed.

 

Yep. T.O. may be a complete b!itch off the field, but he's a gamer when he's on it.

 

As much as the homer in me hates to say it, I think he's a better overall player than Marvin as well. Too bad that T.O. can't keep his ego in check, because he would be revered like Jerry Rice if he were more likable.

[detlef]

I was trying to say SS without a good QB was not very good (most of the year) and same think I would say Cassel is no Tom Brady, no one fears him so Moss could have a bad year.

 

No matter what you say, I was a SS owner last year and from week 3 to 17 he caught 3 TDs that means he was too bad to play and too good to drop and no one wanted him in a trade.

 

dead wood and SS was maybe the number 1 or 2 WR drafted last year just like Moss was this year that's the only reason I was talking about SS since I was an owner last year I know he was too bad to start.

Thing is, he was actually good when either Vinny T or Matt Moore played and neither should be compared to Tom Brady. So your point is incorrect. Smith didn't disappear because he was no longer catching balls from a great QB (oh, and while we're talking about QBs that aren't Tom Brady, um, Jake Delhomme is also not Tom Brady so let's not get carried away with the comparison). He disappeared because the Carolina offense completely went off the tracks in every way shape and form once David Carr took the helm. Only to reappear once AARP Vinny T with 3 whole days to learn the playbook and HOF shoe-in Matt Moore took over.

 

I'm sorry that you had to endure a bad season from Smith last year but I'm not sure if there's a WR in the game who would have risen above that mess.

Edited September 22, 2008 by detlef

[whomper]

Honestly, I was at the Viking game so I did not see the play in question.... We all know Moss has never gone over the middle so why are we expecting anything different?

 

My thought was based on the title of the thread meaning Brady made Moss last year... which I concur with but my point was what would Jerry have been with out Montana and Young??

 

 

Rice would not have had the career he had without Montana and Young . No doubt. My point is like Caveman Nick alluded to above , Moss doesnt step up to adversity. He lost Brady and now he is dogging it again. He has a history of taking plays off and he has short arms. These things hurt his legacy IMO. I have gone on record many times on the huddle in Moss threads saying that he has the best hands I have ever seen. Maybe Carter gives him a run. I remember a playoff game that the Seahawks were in . I am not sure how many years back. maybe 5. I remember Rice was on the team and I think Hss drove them down for the game winner and a wr dropped it in the endzone . Ballgame over Hawks lose. I remember thinking to myself as old and past his prime as Rice was there was no way in hell he would have dropped that ball.

 

As far as the theme of the thread . Yes a great wr shines with a great QB but if a great qb goes down a truly great WR tries to take a team on his back and doesnt pout and not give max effort