Rovers Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Does your league(s) use the updated stat correction made in mid-week after the games have been played? Personally, I hate mid-week stat corrections. For instance, the official stat crews at each stadium tend to award tackles very differently. In Oakland, the award far too many tackles to "team", instead of awarding assists and tackles. I'm always aware of that when setting an IDP line up for any game played in Oakland. This by itsef makes stat keeping very hit or miss in the first place. I enjoy watching the Monday night game and knowing whether I have won or lost before I hit the sack for the night. I find little joy in being given a win on Wednesday after the stats have been "corrected". I REALLY hate the idea that I could lose a win two days after the games are played. I figure that it's never going to be perfect, and like bad calls by a ref, you live with them, regardless of the results. This has always been my position, but now it really came back to bite me. A late week 14 stat correction changed my playoff opponent for round 1. If I play the original opponent, I win easilly with the second highest week 1 playoff score. Against the new opponent, he gets the hghest PF for the week, and I go down in flames. This won't affect me, but there is some controversy over the second Cutler to Marshall TD pass, some saying it was a lateral pass, and therefore, a running TD. It's the FF playoffs. I hate the idea that any stat change like this could change who won a playoff game days after the games were played. Bottom line, and not just sour grapes.... I prefer to live with the stats as they were scored, and not have the outcomes of FF games decided days afterwards. Your opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crapper Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 I can see how some fans would like the scores to reflect the final stats, but for me I would like to stick with MNF being the end of the week. While rare, problems can occur from these changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 once the game is over...it is what it is... of course I already made a thread on this topic, so you know how I feel about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 5.4 Appealing a Score: Sometimes errors occur when statistics are reported or compiled. Any owner may appeal the score of any team if he feels that an error has occurred. 5.4.1 To appeal a score an owner needs to contact the commissioner with his concerns and should present evidence to support his argument. After all of the evidence has been presented, the commissioner is obliged to make a ruling. All scores not already under appeal become final with the start of Sunday NFL play the following week. 5.4.2 If a team score is not under appeal by the start of the following week's Sunday NFL play, it becomes permanent record whether or not it is officially correct in the longer term i.e. two weeks or two decades. We use these in NORRIS, and in my local as well. If the NFL seems fit to change it, we honor it as long as its reaonable in terms of FF, thus the 1 week cutoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 how can you not want scoring to be correct? We have rules in place that say stat changes will be reflected if they are published prior to the next weeks games starting....and that is soyou dont end up with a headache in the standings...but I mean it happens when a wrong guy is credited with a tackle or a pass attempt is actually a lateral and was scored incorrectly at first...the QB wouldnt deserve the points for a lateral that went the distance for a TD because the scorer thought it was a pass...and in a PPR league that player wouldnt deserve the points for a reception either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 (edited) once the game is over it is over with unofficial stats Fixed Edited December 10, 2008 by keggerz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Fixed when the game is over, they become official... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 it is bad enough that officials get lambasted when they screw up a call but yet there are people that play FF and are ok with a score not being corrected, hence it being the WRONG "Call" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 it is bad enough that officials get lambasted when they screw up a call but yet there are people that play FF and are ok with a score not being corrected, hence it being the WRONG "Call" how many days later does this have to be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 when the game is over, they become official... not true...they become official once the ELIAS sports bureau has gone thru them and approved them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 how many days later does this have to be? well considering that ELIAS as far as I know usually has all stat corrections done by mid week then I think its safe to say that any stat changes up until the next weeks games will be implemented...but hey its your league and you can do as you wish...but its not like every 3 weeks they are publishing stat changes from 3 games ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 well considering that ELIAS as far as I know usually has all stat corrections done by mid week then I think its safe to say that any stat changes up until the next weeks games will be implemented...but hey its your league and you can do as you wish...but its not like every 3 weeks they are publishing stat changes from 3 games ago. that's kind of tough when wins and losses are handed out on Tuesday.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 that's kind of tough when wins and losses are handed out on Tuesday.. it isnt if its in your rules and people know that there could be stat changes just answer this question...why wouldnt you want the correct stats used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers Posted December 10, 2008 Author Share Posted December 10, 2008 how can you not want scoring to be correct? We have rules in place that say stat changes will be reflected if they are published prior to the next weeks games starting....and that is soyou dont end up with a headache in the standings...but I mean it happens when a wrong guy is credited with a tackle or a pass attempt is actually a lateral and was scored incorrectly at first...the QB wouldnt deserve the points for a lateral that went the distance for a TD because the scorer thought it was a pass...and in a PPR league that player wouldnt deserve the points for a reception either. First, scoring is NEVER correct. There are and will be errors ALL the time. MFL uses the Wednesday updates, but there are other "corrections" made after that that will never count in FF. So, even if you use the mid-week "corections", they may still be "inaccurate". So, it's isn't a question of using "correct" scoring, as there is no such thing, it's an issue of using slightly more correct scoring. It's a far from perfect system. I prefer to live with the scoring as of Monday night. For people that had Cutler this week.... if that pass to Marshall gets ruled a lateral... and that caused them to lose a playoff game... I think that is FAR worse than just going with the original stats. To say that the updated stats are "correct" is flat out wrong. There could be additional changes made too. Those changes can't be used because they come in too late especially when the Thursday games are played. I don't want to wait on some weenie watching films for Elias somewhere to tell me I won or lost two or three days after the games are played. The system is imperfect, as much as NFL reffereeing is. You live with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 it isnt if its in your rules and people know that there could be stat changes just answer this question...why wouldnt you want the correct stats used? I wouldn't want the outcome of my game determined after I "thought" I won... and if the stats used from the game originally were good enough to get the real game done, then it can get my fantasy game done as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 First, scoring is NEVER correct. There are and will be errors ALL the time. MFL uses the Wednesday updates, but there are other "corrections" made after that that will never count in FF. So, even if you use the mid-week "corections", they may still be "inaccurate". So, it's isn't a question of using "correct" scoring, as there is no such thing, it's an issue of using slightly more correct scoring. It's a far from perfect system. I prefer to live with the scoring as of Monday night. For people that had Cutler this week.... if that pass to Marshall gets ruled a lateral... and that caused them to lose a playoff game... I think that is FAR worse than just going with the original stats. To say that the updated stats are "correct" is flat out wrong. There could be additional changes made too. Those changes can't be used because they come in too late especially when the Thursday games are played. I don't want to wait on some weenie watching films for Elias somewhere to tell me I won or lost two or three days after the games are played. The system is imperfect, as much as NFL reffereeing is. You live with it. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 I wouldn't want the outcome of my game determined after I "thought" I won... and if the stats used from the game originally were good enough to get the real game done, then it can get my fantasy game done as well... I agree with this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 In addition to what Rovers and Avernus said above, consider this... When an NFL game ends, the score of the game is final. Did PITT get the game points from that fumble TD return? Our fake game mirrors the real game and in the real game, end of game is end of game. No, because the official screwed up...if it had been counted as an INT return but was actually a fumble return then they would have fixed that...but it wasnt a STAT for them to correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 In addition to what Rovers and Avernus said above, consider this... When an NFL game ends, the score of the game is final. Did PITT get the game points from that fumble TD return? Our fake game mirrors the real game and in the real game, end of game is end of game. our Fake game is based off of STATS...i would think people would want to use the correct ones rather then win because of an error...but if they get something from that then so be it...hey on another note I know that there are some scoring stats like tackles and such that are very subjective and that can be maddening but you have to live with that...but if something was really wrong like say a TD PASS not being a TD PASS then it should be fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffraff Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 (edited) Official stats determine the outcome of our stat based hobby. Monday night / Tuesday morning stats are unofficial. No one watches all the games except the official scorer. Just because you think you saw something on TV for a single game doesn't make it the official call. Edited December 10, 2008 by Riffraff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers Posted December 10, 2008 Author Share Posted December 10, 2008 our Fake game is based off of STATS...i would think people would want to use the correct ones rather then win because of an error...but if they get something from that then so be it...hey on another note I know that there are some scoring stats like tackles and such that are very subjective and that can be maddening but you have to live with that...but if something was really wrong like say a TD PASS not being a TD PASS then it should be fixed. There you go again.... there is NO such thing as "corect" stats. Corrected stats, yes, correct stats, no. Some stat changes come in after the Thursday night games start. So, which set of stats do you want to use? the FINAL stats? That would mean that in FF a playoff winner could be indeed a playoff game loser, but the Thursday game was already played! You want "correct" stats? Be perpared to change which teams might be in the playoffs AFTER the Thursday night games are played! There are more "corrections" to come! So, it is NOT a question of using CORRECT stats. It's a question of using "corrected" stats, that may still be "wrong". This is FF. This is not the NFL. The NFL "corrects stats" because it can have an impact on player's bonus clauses, how much $ they might make by reaching incentives in their contracts. Come Monday night.... all FF players deserve to know if they won or lost. By your own admission, tackle stats are inaccurate. The ENTIRE stat system IS inaccurate! There are NO "correct" stats! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 (edited) There you go again.... there is NO such thing as "corect" stats. Corrected stats, yes, correct stats, no. Some stat changes come in after the Thursday night games start. So, which set of stats do you want to use? the FINAL stats? That would mean that in FF a playoff winner could be indeed a playoff game loser, but the Thursday game was already played! You want "correct" stats? Be perpared to change which teams might be in the playoffs AFTER the Thursday night games are played! There are more "corrections" to come! So, it is NOT a question of using CORRECT stats. It's a question of using "corrected" stats, that may still be "wrong". This is FF. This is not the NFL. The NFL "corrects stats" because it can have an impact on player's bonus clauses, how much $ they might make by reaching incentives in their contracts. Come Monday night.... all FF players deserve to know if they won or lost. By your own admission, tackle stats are inaccurate. The ENTIRE stat system IS inaccurate! There are NO "correct" stats! we dont have to agree on if corrected stats should be used or not but you are WAY WRONG on the part I bolded edit: and I also said that once the new weeks games start then thats it for stats changes...and I am ok with that because for the most part probably 99.999999999999999999% of all stat changes do take place prior to that weeks games....I just dont get why you or anyone else would want or think its right to give a QB credit for a passing TD if indeed it was a LATERAL...I am just using that as an example but there are more but that is an easy one for people to see and understand....also fwiw I dont own cutler in any league and didnt play against him either...and fwiw, tackles are an UNOFFICIAL stat and probably always will be due to the subjectiveness (SP?) of scoring them....but there are things that are black and white...a pass that is forward and goes for a TD is a PASSING TD....a lateral that is behind the LOS that goes for a TD is a RUSHING TD...those things are concrete....and yeah.. fwiw, I am not sure if Elias corrects tackle scoring errors since they are UNOFFICIAL (but i will check later) but I do know they adjust SACKS at times Edited December 10, 2008 by keggerz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers Posted December 10, 2008 Author Share Posted December 10, 2008 we dont have to agree on if corrected stats should be used or not but you are WAY WRONG on the part I bolded edit: and I also said that once the new weeks games start then thats it for stats changes...and I am ok with that because for the most part probably 99.999999999999999999% of all stat changes do take place prior to that weeks games....I just dont get why you or anyone else would want or think its right to give a QB credit for a passing TD if indeed it was a LATERAL...I am just using that as an example but there are more but that is an easy one for people to see and understand....also fwiw I dont own cutler in any league and didnt play against him either...and fwiw, tackles are an UNOFFICIAL stat and probably always will be due to the subjectiveness (SP?) of scoring them....but there are things that are black and white...a pass that is forward and goes for a TD is a PASSING TD....a lateral that is behind the LOS that goes for a TD is a RUSHING TD...those things are concrete....and yeah.. fwiw, I am not sure if Elias corrects tackle scoring errors since they are UNOFFICIAL (but i will check later) but I do know they adjust SACKS at times There are no correct stats because stat teams from one stadium to another compile them differently. That is number one. Secondly, just like refs, there is the human element. Mistakes can be made, not only by the refs and stat crews but by Elias as well. If a play like the Cutler to Marshall TD pass was close enough to be called a pass, and now even those looking at replays are evenly divided.... live with the call on the field. So, there ARE NO CORRECT STATS! There will always be errors. Which errors do you want to get corrected? Just the ones that come out on Tuesday? Not the later ones? I think "adjusted" is a better word for it. Remeber the famous Titan "forward" pass on a return? It was ruled on the field to be a lateral. It wasn't. It was never "corrected". Officiating will never be "correct", on the field or by stat crews. The bottom line is.... an NFL team goes to bed knowing whether they won or lost, regardless of any bad calls. The same should apply to fantasy football. Go to bed knowing if you have won or lost. Simple. No arguements. no disagreements. When it comes to FF, I am a firm believer in making the rule set as simple and as bulletproof as possible. That means using the game stats. Not some Elias weenie's opinion. Elias was not empowered to over rule that Titans' lateral, right? Why? Because it would change the outcome of the NFL game. Elias should not be empowered to change the outcome of FF games either. Same as the NFL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 There are no correct stats because stat teams from one stadium to another compile them differently. That is number one. Secondly, just like refs, there is the human element. Mistakes can be made, not only by the refs and stat crews but by Elias as well. If a play like the Cutler to Marshall TD pass was close enough to be called a pass, and now even those looking at replays are evenly divided.... live with the call on the field. So, there ARE NO CORRECT STATS! There will always be errors. Which errors do you want to get corrected? Just the ones that come out on Tuesday? Not the later ones? I think "adjusted" is a better word for it. Remeber the famous Titan "forward" pass on a return? It was ruled on the field to be a lateral. It wasn't. It was never "corrected". Officiating will never be "correct", on the field or by stat crews. The bottom line is.... an NFL team goes to bed knowing whether they won or lost, regardless of any bad calls. The same should apply to fantasy football. Go to bed knowing if you have won or lost. Simple. No arguements. no disagreements. When it comes to FF, I am a firm believer in making the rule set as simple and as bulletproof as possible. That means using the game stats. Not some Elias weenie's opinion. Elias was not empowered to over rule that Titans' lateral, right? Why? Because it would change the outcome of the NFL game. Elias should not be empowered to change the outcome of FF games either. Same as the NFL. man there is no reasoning with you....you are still wrong there are CORRECT STATS...and incomplete pass is an incomplete pass...a pass completion is a pass completion....if a lateral is recorded as a PASS completion then it can be CORRECTED...it doesnt have any effect on the NFL game if it is legal...if it were an illegal forward pass then the refs would flag it and its not a stat....NM you have your mind made up....and like I said we dont have to agree about it...but dont say that there are no correct stats because that isnt true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziachild007 Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 First, scoring is NEVER correct. There are and will be errors ALL the time. MFL uses the Wednesday updates, but there are other "corrections" made after that that will never count in FF. So, even if you use the mid-week "corections", they may still be "inaccurate". So, it's isn't a question of using "correct" scoring, as there is no such thing, it's an issue of using slightly more correct scoring. It's a far from perfect system. I prefer to live with the scoring as of Monday night. For people that had Cutler this week.... if that pass to Marshall gets ruled a lateral... and that caused them to lose a playoff game... I think that is FAR worse than just going with the original stats. To say that the updated stats are "correct" is flat out wrong. There could be additional changes made too. Those changes can't be used because they come in too late especially when the Thursday games are played. I don't want to wait on some weenie watching films for Elias somewhere to tell me I won or lost two or three days after the games are played. The system is imperfect, as much as NFL reffereeing is. You live with it. So what if it was incorrectly listed as a pass to Royal? Would you still want the stats to stay final? Ifyour rules call for stat changes, you either have to live with it or lobby to get the rules changed. As for myself I want to play by the most accurate stats possible, therefor think stat corrections is a great thing and necessary to any credible league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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