Primetime9287 Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 MFL is giving Bowe a fumble on the onside. Is that correct? On NFL.com it isnt showing Bowe with a fumble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Bowe never had "possession". It was a ball touched issue from what I saw of the game. Of course, I'm 3 sheets to the wind so what do I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Bowe never had "possession". It was a ball touched issue from what I saw of the game. Of course, I'm 3 sheets to the wind so what do I know. in the play by play it was ruled a fumble...i posted it in another thread today asking the same exact question(probably still on page one too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 http://forums.thehuddle.com/index.php?showtopic=276877 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagles2010 Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 CBS and NFL.com changed the play by play to no fumble. It was adjusted after the 4 oclock games. Thats when I went to NFL .com to verify and indeed there was no mention of possesion or a fumble on the onside. Just that it was recovered by Osgood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 It should be a fumble on Bowe. A KO is a live ball and Bowe was the first person on the receiving team to touch the ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 CBS and NFL.com changed the play by play to no fumble. It was adjusted after the 4 oclock games. Thats when I went to NFL .com to verify and indeed there was no mention of possesion or a fumble on the onside. Just that it was recovered by Osgood conflicting info right now...gamebook shows that he was credited with a Fumble.. http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/2...KC_Gamebook.pdf NFL.com play by play adjusted how they scored it to not show a fumble but just an onsides recovery and CBS shows the play by play with the fumble still and yeah BB & I will be watching to see if that is adjusted very closesly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 It should be a fumble on Bowe. A KO is a live ball and Bowe was the first person on the receiving team to touch the ball. True but you have to establish possession which he did not. He never came down with both feet on the play. How is that a fumble? I guess it HAS to be a fumble, but I don't think its a fumble in the true sense of the word. Anyway, I could care less....What a game by the Bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprtfan Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 If a punt hits someone on the receiving teams foot while they are trying to block is it called a fumble? I really don't know but it looks like it would be similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twiley Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 It should be a fumble on Bowe. A KO is a live ball and Bowe was the first person on the receiving team to touch the ball. OK, so wouldn't that fall under special teams then? Most leagues don't award/deduct points for players on ST, they group them together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_am_the_swammi Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 True but you have to establish possession which he did not. He never came down with both feet on the play. How is that a fumble? I guess it HAS to be a fumble, but I don't think its a fumble in the true sense of the word. Anyway, I could care less....What a game by the Bolts. Its ruled the same as a muffed punt or kickoff (which an onsides kick really is)....fumble credited to the first person to touch the ball. Not sure why there is any ambiguity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprtfan Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Its ruled the same as a muffed punt or kickoff (which an onsides kick really is)....fumble credited to the first person to touch the ball. Not sure why there is any ambiguity? NFL.com and a few other sites are reporting it as if it was not a fumble and has caused some confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xMRogers Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Wait though - why would a punt and a KO be treated the same here. On a punt, a 'muff' is a fumble because if you don't touch it, no foul. On a KO, it's a live ball from the start much like a fumble during normal play - this is like say LJ fumbling the ball on a run, Bowe trying to pick it up but just batting it down the field, then someone on the other team getting it. Bowe didn't 'fumble', just happened to touch a live ball and not get it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Its ruled the same as a muffed punt or kickoff (which an onsides kick really is)....fumble credited to the first person to touch the ball. Not sure why there is any ambiguity? Its too early in the morning to be using words like ambiguity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xMRogers Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Ok, I didn't see the play so don't know how accurate this is. Here's what ESPN Play by play has: N.Kaeding kicks onside 10 yards from SD 30 to SD 40. D.Bowe to SD 39 for 1 yard (A.Applewhite). FUMBLES (A.Applewhite), RECOVERED by SD-K.Osgood at SD 39. This is what NFL.com has: 10-N.Kaeding kicks onside 31 yards from SD 30 to KC 39, impetus ends at KC 40. RECOVERED by SD-81-K.Osgood. First one seems to indicate some possesion by Bowe. Second one doesn't. May not matter, but I have Bowe and need 20 tonight. The -1 pt could be the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 NFL.com has it this way: 10-N.Kaeding kicks onside 31 yards from SD 30 to KC 39, impetus ends at KC 40. RECOVERED by SD-81-K.Osgood. Impetus: the property possessed by a moving body in virtue of its mass and its motion —used of bodies moving suddenly or violently to indicate the origin and intensity of the motion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprtfan Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 NFL.com has it this way: 10-N.Kaeding kicks onside 31 yards from SD 30 to KC 39, impetus ends at KC 40. RECOVERED by SD-81-K.Osgood. Impetus: the property possessed by a moving body in virtue of its mass and its motion —used of bodies moving suddenly or violently to indicate the origin and intensity of the motion Is there an official source for stats? I have always used NFL.com and thought they would have the official info but wanted to make sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 (edited) If a punt hits someone on the receiving teams foot while they are trying to block is it called a fumble? I really don't know but it looks like it would be similar. Different plays. A KO is a live ball and can be recovered by anyone, a punt is only a muff and can be recovered by the kicking team when it is touched by the receiving team first. In other words, there is no such thing as a muffed KO. post edit: XMR beat me to it. Edited December 15, 2008 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insideout33 Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 keggerz referred to my post yesterday. i believe whatever the official ruling is, it all depends on your league's rules. regardless of it being ruled a fumble by bowe or not, my rules lump all players on the field during ST as ST. we don't get individual points credited or deducted. an issue like this comes up at least 2 or 3 times a year. our league decided to clarify the issue (no ind stats for ST) so that we would not have to deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_am_the_swammi Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Its too early in the morning to be using words like ambiguity. You use "impetus", and you're giving me shiat for ambiguity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Ok, I didn't see the play so don't know how accurate this is. Here's what ESPN Play by play has: N.Kaeding kicks onside 10 yards from SD 30 to SD 40. D.Bowe to SD 39 for 1 yard (A.Applewhite). FUMBLES (A.Applewhite), RECOVERED by SD-K.Osgood at SD 39. This is what NFL.com has: 10-N.Kaeding kicks onside 31 yards from SD 30 to KC 39, impetus ends at KC 40. RECOVERED by SD-81-K.Osgood. First one seems to indicate some possesion by Bowe. Second one doesn't. May not matter, but I have Bowe and need 20 tonight. The -1 pt could be the difference. in my match with BB I am down by 20 and change and that fumble is costing me -4 points...I have Mikell and Akers left and vs the Browns I dont like my odds to have those two combine for 20+...16ish would make me feel much better and fwiw, if you guys look at NFL.com they dont score it a fumble in play by play but in the game book which is official they are listing bowe with the fumble...my guess is that is why the fumble is still showing up in live scoring. does anyone else remember an onsides kick that worked this year so I can take a look at how the scoring on that play took place? and it would be best if you actually saw the play and know that the ball hit the recvng team and the kicking team recovered it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 You use "impetus", and you're giving me shiat for ambiguity? NFL.com used it...he supplied the definition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 You use "impetus", and you're giving me shiat for ambiguity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprtfan Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Different plays. A KO is a live ball and can be recovered by anyone, a punt is only a muff and can be recovered by the kicking team when it is touched by the receiving team first. In other words, there is no such thing as a muffed KO. post edit: XMR beat me to it. Yeah, I realized that after I posted it that it really wasn't the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 (edited) http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/fumble Fumble The distinction between a fumble and a muff should be kept in mind in considering rules about fumbles. A fumble is the loss of player possession of the ball. A muff is the touching of a loose ball by a player in an unsuccessful attempt to obtain possession. A fumble may be advanced by any player on either team regardless of whether recovered before or after ball hits the ground. A fumble that goes forward and out of bounds will return to the fumbling team at the spot of the fumble unless the ball goes out of bounds in the opponent’s end zone. In this case, it is a touchback. On a play from scrimmage, if an offensive player fumbles anywhere on the field during fourth down, only the fumbling player is permitted to recover and/or advance the ball. If any player fumbles after the two-minute warning in a half, only the fumbling player is permitted to recover and/or advance the ball. If recovered by any other offensive player, the ball is dead at the spot of the fumble unless it is recovered behind the spot of the fumble. In that case, the ball is dead at the spot of recovery. Any defensive player may recover and/or advance any fumble at any time. A muffed hand-to-hand snap from center is treated as a fumble. http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/definitions Fumble: The loss of possession of the ball. Impetus: The action of a player that gives momentum to the ball. Live Ball: A ball legally free kicked or snapped. It continues in play until the down ends. Loose Ball: A live ball not in possession of any player. Possession: When a player controls the ball throughout the act of clearly touching both feet, or any other part of his body other than his hand(s), to the ground inbounds. so since I didnt see the play the question for those that did is: Did bowe have possession? Or did he just happen to touch it and SD recovered it? Edited December 15, 2008 by keggerz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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