McBoog Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Fouts is taking aim at one final completion for his former coach. I know he never won the big one. But his innovations changed the game on both sides of the ball. His legacy of understudies is unquestionable. Madden, Gibbs, Martz etc. The substitutions on defense you see today basically evolved to try to stop his offense. What do you all think. How many of you are old enough to actually remember watching "Air Coryell" ? If you were a Charger fan then, you know why, even without a Super Bowl to show for it, some of us are die hard fans. Those were great, fun years to witness! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 It has to be because sports writers vote HoFers in. I agree 100% - Coryell changed the game significantly. But you look at guys like he, and the player I make the case more than any other excluded right now - Randy Gradishar - and one can only conclude that sports writers as a group simply don't understand the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 He does belong in. He changed how the game is played and that is one of my criteria. Why the writers don't agree is If Madden's in as a coach why isn't Coryell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godtomsatan Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) Fouts is taking aim at one final completion for his former coach. I know he never won the big one. But his innovations changed the game on both sides of the ball. His legacy of understudies is unquestionable. Madden, Gibbs, Martz etc. The substitutions on defense you see today basically evolved to try to stop his offense. I saw where both Madden and and Gibbs cited him as influences in their HOF speeches, and you can't deny the immediate impact of his offense on how the Chargers (and Cardinals) performed, but ultimately, if you start talking about him do you start talking about Marty Schottenheimer? Dan Reeves? Chuck Knox? I also don't necessarily buy the bolded portion. I see that's what Fouts said, but nickel defenses and extra DB packages had been in regular use before Coryell got in the league in the mid-70s with St. Louis. Does anyone else have more substantial references to the types of influences he had? I know there's coaches, and the performance of his offenses, but I kind of figured a lot of that was due to the 1978 rule changes as much as anything else. What do you all think. How many of you are old enough to actually remember watching "Air Coryell" ? If you were a Charger fan then, you know why, even without a Super Bowl to show for it, some of us are die hard fans. Those were great, fun years to witness! I believe they were fun to witness. As a Seahawk fan growing up, I disliked the Chargers the least of the AFC West rivals. But I got to point out some cold facts. This vaunted offense only led the NFL in scoring once, in 1981. The New England offense QB'd by Steve Grogan scored more than the Chargers did in 1979 and 1980. The 79-81 teams, which were clearly the best of the bunch, lost a playoff game at home to Houston in '79, the AFC Championship at home to Oakland in '80, then the record setting offense of '81 managed to only put up 7 points against Cincinnati in the AFC Championship. The immortality of that era is in the playoff game in Miami, the awesome nickname of Air Coryell, and the whole "sometimes the best defense is a great offense" way of playing the game. The inclusion of the Fouts, Winslow, and Joiner in the Hall of Fame are testament to how good this team was. Just not sold that the coach is among the immortals on the sideline. I'm open to being convinced otherwise by an argument besides "the writers are idiots". Edited May 14, 2009 by godtomsatan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Itals Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 then the record setting offense of '81 managed to only put up 7 points against Cincinnati in the AFC Championship. What were the weather conditions like that day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) He does belong in. He changed how the game is played and that is one of my criteria. Why the writers don't agree is If Madden's in as a coach why isn't Coryell? Come on - Madden went to 9 out of 11 AFC Chamionship games. That is the definition of "no brainer." Edited May 14, 2009 by Pope Flick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 We must have a couple writers on the boards. Coryell not being in the HOF is a complete lack of knowledge and an understanding about the legacy of the game. In John Madden's Hall of Fame induction speech, Madden mentioned his time at San Diego State "with a great coach that someday will be in here, Don Coryell. He had a real influence on my coaching. Joe Gibbs was on that staff, too." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Come on - Madden went to 9 out of 11 AFC Chamionship games. That is the definition of "no brainer." Madden is definitely a no-brainer. But Coryell and his changes to the way offenses are run that has carried through in significant ways to the way the game is played today ought to have a place also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Madden is definitely a no-brainer. But Coryell and his changes to the way offenses are run that has carried through in significant ways to the way the game is played today ought to have a place also. Who are the coaches that are already in, and how does he stack up against them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Who are the coaches that are already in, and how does he stack up against them? If you're counting championships, you can forget about Coryell getting in. If you are talking about impact on the way the game is played, Koryell definitely belongs. The championships appear to impress the voters much more than making changes in the way the game is played (not that this should surprise anyone). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McBoog Posted May 14, 2009 Author Share Posted May 14, 2009 ... but ultimately, if you start talking about him do you start talking about Marty Schottenheimer? Dan Reeves? Chuck Knox? You must be a writer. These guys have been great coaches, but how did they CHANGE the game? They didn't. Coryell is the only head coach to have coached teams to 100 wins in College and the NFL. That in itself is amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 George Allen 1966-1977 Paul Brown 1946-1962 Guy Chamberlin # 1922-1927 Jimmy Conzelman # 1921-30, 1940-42, 1946-48 Weeb Ewbank 1954-1973 Ray Flaherty # 1936-1949 Joe Gibbs 1981-1992 Sid Gillman 1955-1969, 1971-1974 Bud Grant 1967-1983, 1985 George Halas # 1920-29, 1933-42, 1946-67 Earl (Curly) Lambeau # 1919-1953 Tom Landry 1960-1988 Marv Levy 1978-1982, 1986-1997 Vince Lombardi 1959-1967, 1969 John Madden 1969-1978 Earle (Greasy) Neale 1941-1950 Chuck Noll 1969-1991 Steve Owen # 1930-1953 Don Shula 1963-1995 Hank Stram 1960-1974, 1976-1977 Bill Walsh 1979-1988 I don't think he makes this cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 George Allen 1966-1977Paul Brown 1946-1962 Guy Chamberlin # 1922-1927 Jimmy Conzelman # 1921-30, 1940-42, 1946-48 Weeb Ewbank 1954-1973 Ray Flaherty # 1936-1949 Joe Gibbs 1981-1992 Sid Gillman 1955-1969, 1971-1974 Bud Grant 1967-1983, 1985 George Halas # 1920-29, 1933-42, 1946-67 Earl (Curly) Lambeau # 1919-1953 Tom Landry 1960-1988 Marv Levy 1978-1982, 1986-1997 Vince Lombardi 1959-1967, 1969 John Madden 1969-1978 Earle (Greasy) Neale 1941-1950 Chuck Noll 1969-1991 Steve Owen # 1930-1953 Don Shula 1963-1995 Hank Stram 1960-1974, 1976-1977 Bill Walsh 1979-1988 I don't think he makes this cut. Who is in line ahead of him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawks21 Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Gosh, he is such a tough one. His legacy would be much more elevated if people still ran his offense at the pro level. If you give him the credit for Gibbs, he is probably in based on the 80's successes of the Chargers and Redskins. He certainly made a huge impression on an era, but it kind of seems to me that a lot of today's coaches see the system that he coached as being unsuccessful in this day and age. I am one of those that thinks the hall is already too big. Without the rings, and having authored an offense that didn't stand up to time, I have a hard time saying that he is one of the top handful of football minds in history. That said, geez I hated the Chargers!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Who is in line ahead of him? I was actually just thinking about this, and cannot think of a coach who might be on "the waiting list" OR who has coached in the last 5-10 years and deserves to be in. I don't think there's a list currently. Cowher? No. Dungy? Nope. Dennis Green? And I don't think that because there's no one on a list that we should create one "just 'cuz" - and I don't want to be hating on Coryell either. It's the old "this is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Really Really Good" debate. Which of course, is all subjective because of the voting structure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) I was actually just thinking about this, and cannot think of a coach who might be on "the waiting list" OR who has coached in the last 5-10 years and deserves to be in. I don't think there's a list currently. Cowher? No. Dungy? Nope. Dennis Green? And I don't think that because there's no one on a list that we should create one "just 'cuz" - and I don't want to be hating on Coryell either. It's the old "this is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Really Really Good" debate. Which of course, is all subjective because of the voting structure. I couldn't come up with a name above Coryell, either. He's the direct connect-the-dots link between Gillman & guys like Madden and Gibbs. He absolutely restructured offensive play in the league. I'd think he'd have earned his spot. And I don't think you're hating on Coryell - your priorities for the HoF are just different than mine. I think he's made enough impact on the game to earn his way in. Edited May 14, 2009 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Gosh, he is such a tough one. His legacy would be much more elevated if people still ran his offense at the pro level. If you give him the credit for Gibbs, he is probably in based on the 80's successes of the Chargers and Redskins. He certainly made a huge impression on an era, but it kind of seems to me that a lot of today's coaches see the system that he coached as being unsuccessful in this day and age. I am one of those that thinks the hall is already too big. Without the rings, and having authored an offense that didn't stand up to time, I have a hard time saying that he is one of the top handful of football minds in history. That said, geez I hated the Chargers!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Come on - Madden went to 9 out of 11 AFC Chamionship games. That is the definition of "no brainer." He also lost 5 AFC title gaems in 7 years. He didn't change the game unless you count Jack Tatum and Atkinson intentionally trying to injure people. What was new about that? Madden was a good coach but was given a good team too. John Rauch was the previous coach and went 8-5-1, 13-1 and 12-2. He had a great team. he question that should be asked it what would another ordinary coach have done with that team. Because of how he changed the way the game is played still I think he belonged in ahead of Madden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godtomsatan Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) Because of how he changed the way the game is played still I think he belonged in ahead of Madden. Again, I'll ask, how exactly did he change the game? I understand the vertical offense philosophy, but how much of that was personnel (Fouts, Winslow, Joiner, Jefferson, et al) and how much of that was the scheme applied to the new passing friendly rules that went into effect in 1978? The Hall has basically said the personnel was the reason the Chargers were so successful. His tenure with the Cardinals didn't suggest he had a truly revolutionary offense. His tenure with the Chargers did, but also combined him with a fantastic amount of talent and some lenient rule changes that brought forth the new era of the vertical passing game that won a lot of regular season games, but not many playoff games. From the same era, who had more long-lasting impact with the way offenses are run: Bill Walsh or Don Coryell? Edited May 14, 2009 by godtomsatan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron2112 Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I thnk Dungy is in no question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawks21 Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Sure, some parts are still evident, but his theory at it's truest has been dismissed. Aerial assault football is in most cases looked at as losing football. If you want to give him credit for all great passing games, fine, but even Arizona doesn't remind me of the type of offense Coryell authored. If you want to give him full credit for the evolution of the passing game, he deserves to be in. I mean, does the guy that invented the Run N Shoot deserve to be in the hall? The Oilers were awfully good with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Sure, some parts are still evident, but his theory at it's truest has been dismissed. Aerial assault football is in most cases looked at as losing football. If you want to give him credit for all great passing games, fine, but even Arizona doesn't remind me of the type of offense Coryell authored. If you want to give him full credit for the evolution of the passing game, he deserves to be in. I mean, does the guy that invented the Run N Shoot deserve to be in the hall? The Oilers were awfully good with it. Well no but in theory, probably all aspects of what he implemented have evolved into what we see today. The run and shoot, the west coast offense and the defensive substituting packages all evolved from what Coryell installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 (edited) He also lost 5 AFC title gaems in 7 years. He didn't change the game unless you count Jack Tatum and Atkinson intentionally trying to injure people. What was new about that? Madden was a good coach but was given a good team too. John Rauch was the previous coach and went 8-5-1, 13-1 and 12-2. He had a great team. he question that should be asked it what would another ordinary coach have done with that team. Because of how he changed the way the game is played still I think he belonged in ahead of Madden. Are you serious with this? He dropped TITLE GAMES so he was a slouch? Levy sucked too, huh? Madden also had the 2nd highest winnning % after Lombardi. Again, "no brainer" except for you... How many good teams are inheireted by coaches who then run them aground? Also, pare down that list and each coach achieved tangible, evidentary accomplishments: George Allen never had a losing season. He, Madden and Lombardi are the 3 highest winning % coaches to have coached. Lambeau, Halas, Shula,Gillman, Grant, Landry. Titans of the coaches seat. Coryell simply doesn't hold up under those super strenuous set of factual accomplishments. Edited May 15, 2009 by Pope Flick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 We must have a couple writers on the boards. Coryell not being in the HOF is a complete lack of knowledge and an understanding about the legacy of the game. The legacy of continuing to use the offense Sid Gillman invented in the early '60s and Al Davis' Raiders won titles with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 The Hall has basically said the personnel was the reason the Chargers were so successful. His tenure with the Cardinals didn't suggest he had a truly revolutionary offense. No, his tenure with the Cardinals suggests (to me, at least) that the man can coach; nobody else has consistently won with the Cards for the past 50 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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