Antwaan Randle El

[MrTed46]

Did he fumble on offense or did he muff a punt? In my MFL league, he was charged -2 for a fumble but not the Redskins DST. I want to make sure and allocate the right points.

[Big John]

He muffed a punt, and that is a fumble for statistical purposes.

[MustOfBeenDrunk]

He muffed a punt, and that is a fumble for statistical purposes.

 

 

yep ,,, it bounce right off his helmet ,,, never touched his hands

[MrTed46]

He muffed a punt, and that is a fumble for statistical purposes.

 

so it should NOT be charged on Defense/Special Teams?

[Big John]

so it should NOT be charged on Defense/Special Teams?

Depends on league scoring rules, but I had never been is a league where lost fumbles were charged to the D/ST. But if your league has such a rule, then it would be charged to the team D/ST.

[Big Country]

so it should NOT be charged on Defense/Special Teams?

 

How are your league rules setup? Do they give negative points for lost fumbles?

 

In the past, when a defender has intercepted a pass, but then fumbles it back to the original offense, how was it scored? Did the defense lose points for a lost fumble?

 

 

From a statistical reporting purpose, this fumble would be reported no differently than any other fumble, whether it occurred on a standard offensive play, on a kick return, a punt return, etc.

[MrTed46]

Depends on league scoring rules, but I had never been is a league where lost fumbles were charged to the D/ST. But if your league has such a rule, then it would be charged to the team D/ST.

 

Well, if he caught it and ran for a TD, it would be a D/ST TD and not his. So I guess it should be charged to D/ST.

[detlef]

Well, if he caught it and ran for a TD, it would be a D/ST TD and not his. So I guess it should be charged to D/ST.

Only if that's how it's always been. Sounds like someone lost by less than two points. Like John, I've never been in a league that scored negative points to the D/ST for lost fumbles. And, while I can see how that rule has merits, it would certainly have to be something that was agreed upon ahead of time and not scored retroactively.

[MrTed46]

any1 else running into this issue?

[Big Country]

Only if that's how it's always been. Sounds like someone lost by less than two points. Like John, I've never been in a league that scored negative points to the D/ST for lost fumbles. And, while I can see how that rule has merits, it would certainly have to be something that was agreed upon ahead of time and not scored retroactively.

 

Not only that, it would probably be very difficult to score for a league management site.

[MrTed46]

Only if that's how it's always been. Sounds like someone lost by less than two points. Like John, I've never been in a league that scored negative points to the D/ST for lost fumbles. And, while I can see how that rule has merits, it would certainly have to be something that was agreed upon ahead of time and not scored retroactively.

 

 

So in your league (just to clarify), if he caught the punt and scored a TD, the Defense would get credit. But since he fumbles, he gets the fumble?

[Big Country]

Ted -

 

question -

 

How has every other muffed punt recovered by the punting team been scored in your league?

[Big Country]

These issues happen all of the time in leagues. Solutions are:

 

1. Give points for returns to individuals instead of the teams

2. Go to IDP then every individual gets credit for every individual act on the field, regardless of position, formation, lineup or activity taking place on the field.

3. Give points to both the individual and the team, though this means actions are being double counted to multiple "playing units" for fantasy purposes

 

I'm sure there are other solutions, but these were the first ones that popped into my head. I don't like option 3, but I know Henry Muto does so I included it.

 

Unfortunately, with the way stats are reported, there is no way to automatically identify which fumbles would get charged to the individual and which wouldn't, to the stats, a fumble is a fumble is a fumble.

[MrTed46]

Ted -

 

question -

 

How has every other muffed punt recovered by the punting team been scored in your league?

 

No, it was just noticed. And the player did not lose, this does NOT change the outcome of the game and points will NOT be changed. I am asking for potetential next year changes.

 

This is not a controversy in my league just someone noticed now and poitned it out to me so I am curious.

[detlef]

So in your league (just to clarify), if he caught the punt and scored a TD, the Defense would get credit. But since he fumbles, he gets the fumble?

Actually, both the D/ST and Randle El would be given credit for the TD, but only Randle El would lose points for the fumble. As I said before, I can see why your thoughts on how to scoring this would make sense. Of course, the deal breaker would be whether or not the website would score this automatically. If it was something that you had to actually notice and then go in and change yourself, no freaking way.

[MrTed46]

Actually, both the D/ST and Randle El would be given credit for the TD, but only Randle El would lose points for the fumble. As I said before, I can see why your thoughts on how to scoring this would make sense. Of course, the deal breaker would be whether or not the website would score this automatically. If it was something that you had to actually notice and then go in and change yourself, no freaking way.

 

Double dipping sounds bad 2..

 

This is a messy situation.

[Big Country]

Double dipping sounds bad 2..

 

This is a messy situation.

 

But, it is what Henry Muto likes, so it must be the right way to handle the situation.

[MrTed46]

But, it is what Henry Muto likes, so it must be the right way to handle the situation.

 

True

[detlef]

Double dipping sounds bad 2..

 

This is a messy situation.

Double dipping doesn't sound as bad to me as starting a guy, watching him run across the goal line with the ball in his hand and not getting credit for it because he didn't line up at WR that play.

 

The double dipping argument is always brought up but you do have to start both the player and the D to get the points. Thus, there's no way to "abuse the system". Especially because, often times, WRs who run back kicks are not guys who would warrant a start based only on their fantasy value as a WR. So, in reality, the situation rarely comes up anyway. If you want to start Randle El because he might run back a punt, have at it. I'll take my chances on dudes who are reliable producers in the passing game.

 

Also, there's already a precedent for "double dipping". Both the QB who throws a TD and the guy who catches it get points when that happens. Not a huge difference here.

Edited October 27, 2009 by detlef

[i_am_the_swammi]

Well, if he caught it and ran for a TD, it would be a D/ST TD and not his. So I guess it should be charged to D/ST.

 

There are fumbled kickoffs and fumbled punts all the time. Surely, this isn't the first time its come up? I know for a fact that earlier this year that the Eagles DST lost a fumble on a kickoff to open the 2nd half versus the Saints. Did your league award the Eagles DST with minus 2??

 

FWIW, I have been in 3-4 leagues a year for the last 20+ years, and I have never seen a D/ST charged for a lost fumble. That statistic is usually applied to individuals only.

[HowboutthemCowboys]

have never seen a D/ST charged for a lost fumble. That statistic is usually applied to individuals only.

yep

[Big Country]

Double dipping doesn't sound as bad to me as starting a guy, watching him run across the goal line with the ball in his hand and not getting credit for it because he didn't line up at WR that play.

 

The double dipping argument is always brought up but you do have to start both the player and the D to get the points. Thus, there's no way to "abuse the system". Especially because, often times, WRs who run back kicks are not guys who would warrant a start based only on their fantasy value as a WR. So, in reality, the situation rarely comes up anyway. If you want to start Randle El because he might run back a punt, have at it. I'll take my chances on dudes who are reliable producers in the passing game.

 

Also, there's already a precedent for "double dipping". Both the QB who throws a TD and the guy who catches it get points when that happens. Not a huge difference here.

 

Actually, that is a hugh difference IMO.

 

In one scenario, you are awarding two separate fantasy units for performing the same act. (IMO, simple solution is if you want an individual to get credit for TDs scores on kick returns, then give it to them, but remove the scoring category from the team defense.. basically make it a team defense and not a team defense/st as it has morphed into)

 

In the other, you are awarding two separate units for performing separate vital acts for a score. One unit, the WR (or RB, or TE, or Brad Johnson), is awarded for scoring the actual touchdown, while the other unit, the QB, is awarded for passing the ball to the player that eventually scores the TD. So, while there is only one score, separate statistics are created on the play for passing the TD and receiving the TD, and generally less points are provided for the passing portion of the scoring act.

[i_am_the_swammi]

Especially because, often times, WRs who run back kicks are not guys who would warrant a start based only on their fantasy value as a WR. So, in reality, the situation rarely comes up anyway. If you want to start Randle El because he might run back a punt, have at it. I'll take my chances on dudes who are reliable producers in the passing game.

 

DeSean Jackson? Devin Hester? Just off the top of my head.....I am sure there are 3-5 other WR/RBs that are fantasy-relevant at their positon.

 

That being said, we score the same way you do. An average WR who returns kicks is more valuable, and garners a higher ADP, than an average WR who does not.

 

Also, there's already a precedent for "double dipping". Both the QB who throws a TD and the guy who catches it get points when that happens. Not a huge difference here.

 

Correct

[detlef]

DeSean Jackson? Devin Hester? Just off the top of my head.....I am sure there are 3-5 other WR/RBs that are fantasy-relevant at their positon.

 

That being said, we score the same way you do. An average WR who returns kicks is more valuable, and garners a higher ADP, than an average WR who does not.

 

 

 

Correct

Should I have said "generally"? Even without flex, in a 12 team league, there are 48 RBs and WRs worthy of a FF starter status. if there are about 5 or so combined that would be worthy of starting without the return points, then the spirit of my point still remains.

 

And besides, Devin Hester is about #20, so he's certainly fringe without the possibility of the return pts.

[detlef]

Actually, that is a hugh difference IMO.

 

In one scenario, you are awarding two separate fantasy units for performing the same act. (IMO, simple solution is if you want an individual to get credit for TDs scores on kick returns, then give it to them, but remove the scoring category from the team defense.. basically make it a team defense and not a team defense/st as it has morphed into)

 

In the other, you are awarding two separate units for performing separate vital acts for a score. One unit, the WR (or RB, or TE, or Brad Johnson), is awarded for scoring the actual touchdown, while the other unit, the QB, is awarded for passing the ball to the player that eventually scores the TD. So, while there is only one score, separate statistics are created on the play for passing the TD and receiving the TD, and generally less points are provided for the passing portion of the scoring act.

Not in terms of Fantasy game play. In both cases, one team could have two starters who both score on the same play. So while your distinction is understandable, it doesn't change the fact that a Fantasy player can already "double dip" on one play's events. Of course, like the WR/ST situation, he does need to commit two starting spots to do so. And the fact that QBs usually (and frankly should) get less points for throwing the TD is not really important to the argument.

 

And honestly, your simple solution just makes the game less fun. Even if swammi can point out a few guys who are legit RB or WR starters, the fact remains that most guys who return kicks aren't worth starting in hopes that they run one back, because they're otherwise non-factors in the offense. So, by taking the points away from the ST and just giving them to the players, you've effectively removed that scoring event from FF, because the vast majority of guys returning kicks aren't going to be on anyone's starting FF roster. Further, many teams employ different guys for kickoffs and punt returns, so that's watered it down further.

 

The argument behind double dipping here has always been the fact that scoring is more fun and that it adds another wrinkle when evaluating players. It sort of elevates the handful of WRs and RBs who might otherwise be marginal starters into the next level. But mostly again, it just seems totally lame to put a guy in your starting line-up, watch him score a TD, and not get the points because he didn't score the right kind of TD.