79 replies to this topic

[Menudo]

This may seem like a silly question, but,  a guy in my league just asked it.  Does the Saints 'Defense/Special Teams' get credit for the td ?  My first thought is "hell no", as the saints defensive unit wasn't even on the field.  However, the owner made the point that the interception was a change of possession and the Meachum was technically playing defense at the point.  

I still believe that it will and should be scored as an offensive fumble return for a TD by Meachum, but, it is a tricky one.  So, how should it be scored ?

[Pirate lookin' at 40]

Menudo, on 12/6/09 7:45pm, said:

This may seem like a silly question, but,  a guy in my league just asked it.  Does the Saints 'Defense/Special Teams' get credit for the td ?  My first thought is "hell no", as the saints defensive unit wasn't even on the field.  However, the owner made the point that the interception was a change of possession and the Meachum was technically playing defense at the point.  

I still believe that it will and should be scored as an offensive fumble return for a TD by Meachum, but, it is a tricky one.  So, how should it be scored ?

He is right. The Saints offense became the Saints Defense when possession changed. Unless, there is a special rule in your league stating otherwise.

[42zero]

Meachem and the defense should get a TD

[bpwallace49]

There isnt a change of possession until the play is ruled dead . . . I think.

if it is still in action then it is Saints possession until they blow the whistle . . .

I have Meachem too . . so I am very interested in this ruling.

[Pope Flick]

NORRIS, and a few other BotH don't consider it a D/ST touchdown:

Quote

5.3.4 The formation of each NFL team on each side of the ball at the beginning of the play (snap of the ball) is the same throughout the duration of the play, regardless of any number of change(s) of possession. [In other words, when Keenan McCardell scored after he recovered a fumble from the opposing team’s DB after there was an INT on that play (remember from debate 3 years ago?), it was not a touchdown scored FOR the Tampa D, but a touchdown scored by WR Keenan McCardell, against that D.]

It's already been ruled as a TD with no yardage in our league. I think it's a fantastic stretch to observe the change of possession rule in the NFL that, in fact, does have the D/ST awarded the TD in official stats. For Fantasy purposes I think it's moranic to consider Brees as part of the D in that situation. But, to each league their own and if you[ve left it undefined have fun with that.

[alchico]

I think it should be a TD pass for Brees since the ball never touched the ground. Just like a deflection caught by a wr off of the db.

[Bier Meister]

Bier Meister, on 12/6/09 12:47pm, said:

these have to be defined before teh season starts.

personal philosophy:
- pick for brees
- fr and td for NOS team D
- TD no yards for meachum

in idp:
- ff, fr, and td for meachum

[myhousekey]

If Brees had thrown it to Bush who fumbles and Meachem picks it up and runs it for a TD how would you have scored it?

My leagues reviewed a similar play in 2007 where Brady threw a pick to Ed Reed, who then fumbled and Ben Watson recovered the fumble.  We basically determined that the Pats defense wouldn't get credit for the fumble recovery because they weren't on the field and we wouldn't have penalized the Pats defense if Ed Reed had scored on the INT.  Thus we'll end up ruling this similar play as a Brees Int, and then a Meachem 44 yard TD run.  No TD for Saints defense.

Edited by myhousekey, 06 December 2009 - 03:13 PM.

[Pirate lookin' at 40]

In all of my leagues, the Saints D was awarded the score. Meachum got 0 points.

[MustOfBeenDrunk]

alchico, on 12/6/09 7:55pm, said:

I think it should be a TD pass for Brees since the ball never touched the ground. Just like a deflection caught by a wr off of the db.

im all for this  

[Bier Meister]

myhousekey, on 12/6/09 12:59pm, said:

If Brees had thrown it to Bush who fumbles and Meachem picks it up and runs it for a TD how would you have scored it?

brees:  yds to where bush fumbles.

bush:  rec and yds until point of fumble.

meachum:  td

[Grits and Shins]

This has come up in years past ... IMO the defensive/special teams unit has to be on the field at the start of the play for it to be considered a defense/special teams TD.  Which is exactly how we worded it in our rules in my local league several years ago.

Edited by Grits and Shins, 06 December 2009 - 03:06 PM.

[Pope Flick]

myhousekey, on 12/6/09 11:59am, said:

If Brees had thrown it to Bush who fumbles and Meachem picks it up and runs it for a TD how would you have scored it?

Yards to Bush, TD for Meachum no yardage because it's a fumble recovery.

If it's a lateral instead of a fumble to Meachum, he'd get any yards after he received the ball along with the TD.

This scenario seems especially tricky in IDP.

[wiegie]

In my local, I started Meachem and he gets no points (since our rules say that points only come from passing, rushing or receiving TDs).

In a BOTH league, my opponent has the NO Def and currently his team is getting the defensive points for the play.

In both leagues, if I win I am in the playoffs and if I lose I am out.  And both games are close.

  

[BillyBalata]

I'm a little confused by the Wcoff rules. Seems like both meachem and Saints D could be awarded tds.

Refers to a double turnover in two places...



TDs scored on “fake” field goals or “fake” punts do NOT count as Defense/Special Teams scoring. TDs scored by the offensive team after a blocked FG or blocked punt do NOT count as a Defense/Special teams score. TDs scored on a double-turnover only count for the individual player who scored the TD, not for the team.

** A double turnover is considered points for the recovering team's defense and ST. Thus, an example, team A's offense fumbles and team B's defense recovers, but then fumbles the ball back to team A's offense. In that scenario team A's defense and special teams (along with team B's defense and ST) are both awarded a fumble recovery.

[Henry Muto]

They are giving the NO DF credit for 2 pts but not the TD.  The reason for this is probably because the way Elias does it they always give credit to the DF for that for a the turnover and they don't want to manually have to go back and take pts away for that. Just a guess.

[keggerz]

Pirate lookin' at 40, on 12/6/09 2:47pm, said:

He is right. The Saints offense became the Saints Defense when possession changed. Unless, there is a special rule in your league stating otherwise.

[devils advocate] so when the D recovers a fumble and runs it in for a TD did they not become the offense when they recovered the ball [/devils advocate]

[MustOfBeenDrunk]

BillyBalata, on 12/6/09 11:05pm, said:

I'm a little confused by the Wcoff rules. Seems like both meachem and Saints D could be awarded tds.

Refers to a double turnover in two places...



TDs scored on “fake” field goals or “fake” punts do NOT count as Defense/Special Teams scoring. TDs scored by the offensive team after a blocked FG or blocked punt do NOT count as a Defense/Special teams score. TDs scored on a double-turnover only count for the individual player who scored the TD, not for the team.

** A double turnover is considered points for the recovering team's defense and ST. Thus, an example, team A's offense fumbles and team B's defense recovers, but then fumbles the ball back to team A's offense. In that scenario team A's defense and special teams (along with team B's defense and ST) are both awarded a fumble recovery.

wow ,, it's not going to cost me the playoffs but will make a difference between 1st round bye and # 5 or 6 seed

[Big Country]

keggerz, on 12/6/09 2:26pm, said:

[devils advocate] so when the D recovers a fumble and runs it in for a TD did they not become the offense when they recovered the ball [/devils advocate]

I remember a very lengthy and in depth discussion about this here a few year's back after a similar play, and, IIRC, essentially by the strictest interpretation of the NFL definitions, a "defense" can never score a TD. Obviously, when translated to FF scoring, this is not the case.

[Delicious_bass]

CBSSports now ruling it a DFR and TD for the Saints and offering this expanation:

During the New Orleans Saints vs Washington Redskins game Drew Brees threw an INT to Kareem Moore of the Redskins. Moore returned the INT 14 yards and was then stripped by Robert Meachem, Meachem recovered the fumble and returned it 44 yards for a TD. This is scored as a Defensive Fumble Recovery and a Defensive TD for the Saints DST. Robert Meachem will not be awarded any fantasy points for this play. By rule when there is a change of possession via  turnover, the offensive team becomes the defense and the defense becomes the offense.

By this explantion, a D would never score as the Saints would have become offense again as soon as Meachem stripped the Skins player. As BC mentions above, this explanation is a little flawed and/or certainly needs to be clarified  

Edited by Delicious_bass, 06 December 2009 - 06:05 PM.

[BillyBalata]

now it appears both RTSports and MFL have changed it from Defense TD to a Meachem td.  

[Rovers]

It should be a TD for Meacum, and no points for the D. The league rules should be amended to make sure it's scored correectly.

[Bier Meister]

Rovers, on 12/6/09 4:17pm, said:

It should be a TD for Meacum, and no points for the D.

i disagree

[buddahj]

i thought after a turnover, the offense becomes the defense.

[Pirate lookin' at 40]

keggerz, on 12/6/09 10:26pm, said:

[devils advocate] so when the D recovers a fumble and runs it in for a TD did they not become the offense when they recovered the ball [/devils advocate]

Yes. May not make sense, but that's the way the NFL looks at it, which is why I set up my leagues the same way.