Trade Strategies

[Rovers]

I'm curious how others approach proposing and recieving trade offers. I think I have been making some mistakes.

 

When I make an offer, I usually look at every team and their rosters to find both a need of theirs and if they have strength in a position I want to shore up. So far so good, me thinks. I like to bounce an offer off of owners before proposing at the league site.

 

This is where I seem to go wrong. I usually make a low bid offer, starting low but ready to offer more. Not ridiculous offers, but an offer I expect to be a starting point for negotiations. I NEVER expect my first offer to be accepted. It's a starting point, a base line. I find that a lot of owners freak out and aren't willing to talk. Seriously, I don't offer silly lopsided stuff... I expect to see some discussions, maybe a counter offer that the other owner sets as a base line to come down from. Then we both work our way towards an acceptable middle ground.

 

I get a lot of flat out no's, without any discussion. That makes no sense to me at all.

 

When I get an offer, I usually discuss it, maybe make a counter... and maybe we can find something agreeable in the middle, maybe not. I almost never accept a first offer.

 

So, when you want to make a trade, do you go in with your best offer? That's it, take it or leave it? When you get an offer, do you try to negotiate a better deal? I think trade negotiations are part of the fun of FF. Some people even seem to get insulted. Again, I don'y make ludicrous offers... low yes, a starting point to offering a player that I see as a need on another roster. We all value players differently as well, there might be another player that could be put on the table. I do manage to close a fair number of trades, ones that help both teams but Is the art of dealing dead? What works best for you?

[MTSuper7]

You are making trade offers as if the other owners think of things the same way you do. Clearly if everyone in your leagues was like you, it would work. I find that in every league I'm in, there are some people who like to negotiate (they also see it as part of the fun) and some people who don't. With those that I know don't, I never lowball. I look for something that I think is a good trade for both parties and let 'er rip. Because if I don't do that, those same owners will accept someone else's offer, and when I see it, I'll think "I could have beat that offer."

 

So in short, I usually tailor my offers to the person I'm sending them to. I also like to trade someone a player that I know that person likes even if their value has taken a hit. I sweetened a deal earlier this season by adding in Donald Brown because I knew the guy liked him. I also targeted the Hakeem Nicks owner in one league a couple weeks ago because I had Welker, and I knew the guy was a big Welker fan. I don't always know everyone in my leagues well enough for that to work, but sometimes you can get good value that way,

[CaptainHook]

If I told you, my BOTH league-mates would see this . . .

[Delicious_bass]

I'm curious how others approach proposing and recieving trade offers. I think I have been making some mistakes.

 

When I make an offer, I usually look at every team and their rosters to find both a need of theirs and if they have strength in a position I want to shore up. So far so good, me thinks. I like to bounce an offer off of owners before proposing at the league site.

 

This is where I seem to go wrong. I usually make a low bid offer, starting low but ready to offer more. Not ridiculous offers, but an offer I expect to be a starting point for negotiations. I NEVER expect my first offer to be accepted. It's a starting point, a base line. I find that a lot of owners freak out and aren't willing to talk. Seriously, I don't offer silly lopsided stuff... I expect to see some discussions, maybe a counter offer that the other owner sets as a base line to come down from. Then we both work our way towards an acceptable middle ground.

 

I get a lot of flat out no's, without any discussion. That makes no sense to me at all.

 

When I get an offer, I usually discuss it, maybe make a counter... and maybe we can find something agreeable in the middle, maybe not. I almost never accept a first offer.

 

So, when you want to make a trade, do you go in with your best offer? That's it, take it or leave it? When you get an offer, do you try to negotiate a better deal? I think trade negotiations are part of the fun of FF. Some people even seem to get insulted. Again, I don'y make ludicrous offers... low yes, a starting point to offering a player that I see as a need on another roster. We all value players differently as well, there might be another player that could be put on the table. I do manage to close a fair number of trades, ones that help both teams but Is the art of dealing dead? What works best for you?

Similarly, I tend to scout all the league rosters and look for owners who have someone I want that can use someone I can spare. For better or worse, I usually offer exactly what I am willing to give up for who I want and see what happens. If I am the instigator, I ALWAYS propose the trade in an email or text message and only make it an official offer through the league site if its been agreed upon first. This seems to work well for me though (in the interest of full disclosure) I dont make many trades. Increasingly, I find it more difficult to gage the value of players when thinking trade because most of them seem to be so wildly inconsistent. From game to game, many of these players can blow up or just plain blow. I think other owners feel similarly as trades are down in my leagues and most that happen are really necessity driven. If/when I do receive an offer, if I dont necessarily like the offer but feel the person is legit in their intentions to make a fair trade, I may go back and forth with them and see if we can come to an agreement.

 

Speaking of offers...one of my teams lost both QBs Romo and Alex Smith this week. Since then, I am getting hounded by people offering me QBs in attempts to get their hands on Roddy White.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Delicious_bass

[osu1322]

I honestly don't have that much exp trading.... Last year and this year I've done 3 trades. 2 of which were with a good friend of mine and while we were sitting there drinking we talking about our needs, wants and willingness to trade. The other trade was actually proposed to me, I made a counter and he accepted.

 

In that sort of situtation, he made the first offer I declined saying "not interested in so and so" then proceeded to make a counter which benifited both of us.

 

Finding out what someone needs and wants r the 2 hardest parts of trading in FF. If ur able to meet with someone IRL it makes it a lot easier to start a conversation vs going with what's said on the internet. Heck even if u talk to someone and they tell u " well idk who I'd want on ur team... let me look and get back to u." That means they are willing to at least look for trade possiblities.

 

Don't forget however there are those people who are casual players and will more or less stick with who they have drafted.

[Rovers]

I think, in part, it's my fault. I used to lead off any offer discussions with "If you don't like this, we can tralk about other players. Let me ask you... do you think you could use an upgrade at WR? I need help at RB, if you don't like this do you have another idea?" With accomplished owners, mostly league sbased at the Huddle, I didn't think that sort of nose ring rope was needed, but I think now that I am wrong about that.

 

It seems silly, but sometimes you have to make the donkey smell the carrot before dangling it in front of his nose. Maybe I just project my way of thinking onto others, like someone mentioned. Sometimes I out think myself... let me offer player A and B.... then he can think it's his idea to want to include player C instead of player A, and it was player C I planned to offer all along.

 

I play in a lot of leagues. I don't know every player and how they might respond... it's 50-50. some I know, some I don't. I guess I am asking what works best with the owners you may not know that well, or ones you know, but just haven't done any trades with. .

[Company of Heroes]

I always make offers that can help both teams address needs, very rarily a player for player of the same position. They are usually pretty equal in terms of total points, since I think people pay way too much attention to past production. But given the above, I always tip the scale in terms of future projections using things like SoS swings. (see my other post)

 

I also try to look for teams that are near .500 and have huge BYE week issues at a position, and try to 'help' them get that needed win.

 

Ultimately, trades are becoming less frequent in my leagues for a few reasons:

1 I've come out ahead enough, so now they don't deal with me

2 The fall in love with their players

3 People just don't want to spend the time to evaluate a deal if it is anything but a no-brainer win for them

[montster]

I put a lot of time into trade offers. I try to match my strengths and weaknesses with another team with opposite strengths and weaknesses and craft a deal that way. I rarely expect my first offer to be accepted. I'm not saying I lowball, but with deals involving quality players, I usually offer just a little less than what I'd get in return. I usually make the offer via email first, and even though I'm almost always willing to offer something more or take something less, I never say so.

 

What I enjoy is using what I know about the owner to make sure the deal gets done. One guy always gives up on players as soon as they have a bad game. Another loves RBs and will give up more than he should to get his hands on one. Some rarely check their email, so I won't mess around and will just send my "final" offer via the league site and hope he takes it. Some guys ALWAYS want gold in exchange for crap, so I won't even send them any offers. (They're the ones who will offer you CJ Spiller for Michael Turner before cutting Spiller a day later.)

[ajfalcone]

If Im the offeree, I usually offer up more or the very least very fair because I want the deal done. If Im being offered then I play with it and see what the owner does. Usually my deals are blockbuster because I dont bother with bench fodder for bench fodder.

[Thews40]

Speaking of offers...one of my teams lost both QBs Romo and Alex Smith this week. Since then, I am getting hounded by people offering me QBs in attempts to get their hands on Roddy White.

This may be the inverse of the offer low strategy. What they're probably wanting is for you to counter with a 2 for 1 with White and someone else in exchange for a very good QB (Orton?).

 

For the record I offer trades that I think people will accept, but most people are used to the low offer in the initial exchange. I look over my roster and see who I can live without and then look for that hole in other rosters. Of those rosters I look to see if they have depth in a position I need. If I see something that works I'll make the offer, but it's something I would consider doing if I were the owner of the other team... I don't offer stupid trades in the hopes they'll bite, but I do counter low balls with extremely one-sided responses.

 

One thing about having a need... let's say you just lost Romo, is when an owner feels he/she has you over the barrel. You offer up a decent RB/WR for someone like McNabb, and they counter with wanting Gates. Bye week fills are also hard to trade low for low, but some people don't make trades unless it's so one-sided they don't take any risk.

[historymike]

I have found that bye weeks can be a time when other owners are more desperate and thus willing to accept a trade. I try to avoid low-balling, which some owners see as insulting. I offer trades based on mutual needs, as indicated by most people above. I also design trade offers that do not require the other owner to have to drop or add other players to make it work (i.e., no 3-for-1 type offers - if I am giving three quality players for an all-out stud, I package the stud with two lesser positional equivalents as I am offering for a balanced trade). I also include a fairly detailed note explaining my honest rationale.

 

I try to avoid trading with any teams higher than me in the standings, as I am less inclined to help my chief competitors. I also avoid trading with someone I have to play on one of my heavy bye weeks (no sense in getting yourself clobbered by your own former players). I like trading around weeks 7-10 with teams near the bottom who still have a little hope, and my thinking is that they might knock off one of my chief rivals.

[whomper]

I tend to use the Boyce approach. I offer you guys that are no longer playing in the NFL in hopes that I catch you plastered at your computer and get a drunk I accept out of you

[Caveman_Nick]

I have found that most owners are completely impossible to trade. A deal needs to be completely in their favor and not in your favor at all for them to pull the trigger. I'm not sure why this is. Maybe people are afraid to make a trade that makes them look bad and the resulting heckling that ensues. It's better to them to fail with their drafted players than to fail after making a trade. Or it could be that they overvalue their players and undervalue other's players. They did draft their players, so it stands to reason they like them. They didn't draft your players so it stands to reason they don't like your players. If they have an underachieving player, they think they will bounce back. If your player is underachieving, they are junk. If their player is overachieving, it's legit. If your player is overachieving, they think they will come back down to Earth.

 

IMO it's twofold:

 

1) GMs are always a little squinchy when it comes to judging value. It's not an easy thing, and so they tend to err on the side of what's good for them.

 

2) When they get a trade offer from you, they assume it's better for you, and are immediately inclined to not like the idea.

 

2a) Furthering that concept, the owner probably had a team or path for the plan, and your proposal disrupts the apple cart which is that plan.

 

I have sent out a bunch of trade offers in the past several weeks. None have gotten done. All dynasty league trade offers. I am trying to offer people things that will help their situation while getting things back that will help my situation. Sometimes that value is harder to assess than straight up player value, because you get into rookie picks and league cash (the use of both is really a crap shoot), and that further skews the value perceptions.

 

I try to build a system in my leagues that equated cash to rookie picks, values rookie picks from round to round and year to year versus each other, and also that compares cash to contract years based on the player/position in question. When I send out an offer, I have usually done quite a bit of value calculation, and try to send as legit an offer as I can. Sometimes I will leave a little room for growth if I really want to get the deal done, but not as a general rule.

[tonyr0802]

I tend to use the Boyce approach. I offer you guys that are no longer playing in the NFL in hopes that I catch you plastered at your computer and get a drunk I accept out of you

 

Seriously, well done

[coachharry]

Although I like Whomper's method, I tend to try and be fair. I have a need to be addressed, so I make offers that add value to both teams. Unfortunately my league tends to only offer BS trades and ignore legit trades. This year seems to have gotten better in that respect. I think the decline of the RB value and the loss of so many QB's has increased the need for trades.

 

So to answer the initial post, I approach trades with my best offer at the start, no need for negotiation.

[Tford]

Although cliche, the same sales mantra applies with trading in FF.

 

KNOW YOUR MARK

 

If you know your trading partner well enough to gather their tendencies, you can use this to your advantage past the obvious trade from strength to benefit weakness trades that almost offer themselves.

 

1) Is your mark afraid/receptive to a big trade?

 

One owner I play in multiple leagues with almost exclusively makes multi-player deals (5 or 6 players). Knowing that going in may give you an edge as far as finding a trade you can both agree on or at least prevent you from scaring them off.

 

2) Is your mark a homer?

 

It's not tough to spot homers around here especially. A quick look to your left will tell you I'm a Falcons fan and yes, I tend to have my own valuations on Atlanta's players. If you get the feeling that I might overvalue Michael Turner, then maybe you can get some extra value out of me in trade. Likewise, you can probably save your breath if you are talking Roddy White in trade with me.

 

3) What positions does your mark value the most?

 

Many players in my local could have AP, CJ, AJ, Roddy White, Antonio Gates and Matt Hasselbeck on their team and tell you that team sucks. They have to have a QB1 to put their mind at ease. Easy prey if you know this going in.

 

 

EDIT: Gotta run, more to follow

[Thews40]

So to answer the initial post, I approach trades with my best offer at the start, no need for negotiation.

I agree. I offered HR Chester Taylor for Chris Ivory last week and was denied, but since I'm in the same division I understand why, but I don't think it was too one-sided. If Ivory's value declines to a point where he's not worthy of a start with Bush or PT back in, then having Chester to back up Forte would be worth it for the rest of the season. It was only a bye week fill with Foster and LT out, but I'm glad now it didn't go down. The point of this trade was all or nothing, as the one week fill wasn't worth giving up a starter.

 

As far as draft strategy using your later picks, I tend to draft BU RB's when they fall too far where there isn't a question who the #2 is. If the starter goes down or is even rumored to be hurt, the owner may give you more than the potential value of the BU in a trade. I still have Donald Brown and McGahee in two leagues, and Chester in three. I initially drafted LT in two leagues using the same mindset and just lucked out when he became the #1 guy.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Thews40

[Delicious_bass]

This may be the inverse of the offer low strategy. What they're probably wanting is for you to counter with a 2 for 1 with White and someone else in exchange for a very good QB (Orton?).

 

For the record I offer trades that I think people will accept, but most people are used to the low offer in the initial exchange. I look over my roster and see who I can live without and then look for that hole in other rosters. Of those rosters I look to see if they have depth in a position I need. If I see something that works I'll make the offer, but it's something I would consider doing if I were the owner of the other team... I don't offer stupid trades in the hopes they'll bite, but I do counter low balls with extremely one-sided responses.

 

One thing about having a need... let's say you just lost Romo, is when an owner feels he/she has you over the barrel. You offer up a decent RB/WR for someone like McNabb, and they counter with wanting Gates. Bye week fills are also hard to trade low for low, but some people don't make trades unless it's so one-sided they don't take any risk.

So far, the offers have been Aaron Rodgers for Roddy White and another owner has offered me (Shaub or Carson Palmer) and Brandon Marshall for White. I've said no to both so far. If I liked Marshall's schedule down the stretch a little better I might pull the trigger on that one. For now, though, I think I am going to try to keep the advantage I have with White and (hopefully) get by with some committee/piecemeal QBing. We'll see

Edited October 28, 2010 by Delicious_bass

[panhead55]

I never make low ball offers.

I never counter other's low ball offers.

I trade often. My first offer is the one I expect the other owner to accept.

I don't have to WIN the trade, I only have to make my team better.

Both sides must prosper from the trade.

I will give up more value than I get in return, with in reason, if it makes my team stronger.

I consistently finish in the playoffs with more than my fair share of championships.

Owners who have come to know me take my offers seriously as they know they're not getting screwed.

Fair play makes for repeat business.

[ajfalcone]

I never make low ball offers.

I never counter other's low ball offers.

I trade often. My first offer is the one I expect the other owner to accept.

I don't have to WIN the trade, I only have to make my team better.

Both sides must prosper from the trade.

I will give up more value than I get in return, with in reason, if it makes my team stronger.

I consistently finish in the playoffs with more than my fair share of championships.

Owners who have come to know me take my offers seriously as they know they're not getting screwed.

Fair play makes for repeat business.

 

+1 exactly. Other owners respect your offers because no one wants to get screwed in a trade. Bad offers undermines the other owner, in his ability that he understands football. Its an insult, really!

Edited October 28, 2010 by ajfalcone

[Thews40]

So far, the offers have been Aaron Rodgers for Roddy White and another owner has offered me (Shaub or Carson Palmer) and Brandon Marshall for White. I've said no to both so far. If I liked Marshall's schedule down the stretch a little better I might pull the trigger on that one. For now, though, I think I am going to try to keep the advantage I have with White and (hopefully) get by with some committee/piecemeal QBing. We'll see

Those are both legit trade offers and both make sense... depending on how many WR's you start and who you have on the bench. Marshall is #14 so if you pull on this one, you downgrade the #1 WR in the league (so far) with the #14, but you at least have a top 12 QB too. The value of Rogers seems tempting, but IMO leaves a hole that's hard to fill. Sometimes when you wait too long to respond the offer goes away.

[Delicious_bass]

Those are both legit trade offers and both make sense... depending on how many WR's you start and who you have on the bench. Marshall is #14 so if you pull on this one, you downgrade the #1 WR in the league (so far) with the #14, but you at least have a top 12 QB too. The value of Rogers seems tempting, but IMO leaves a hole that's hard to fill. Sometimes when you wait too long to respond the offer goes away.

White is #1 amongst WR in our scoring with 104pts, but Marshall is #25(56pts). Shaub is #13(101pts) among QBs.

 

I have resisted the trade offer with the thinking that I am better off keeping the #1 WR and playing one of the QBs (Cassel(76pts) or Kitna) I picked up off the wire this morning(or whomever else I may grab down the road). Got outbid on Fitzpatrick or I would try to roll with him and Cassel for a while. Anyways, White is outproducing Marshall at nearly 2-1 pace (though that will likely regress a little with White on BYE this week) whereas Shaub is not outproducing the other QBs as badly. I certainly do like Shaub's potential over the rest of the season better than the guys I have now, but I also like White a lot better than Marshall. I've typically been of the belief that I can get by waiting on QBs and still finding value at that position later in drafts so that is part of the reason I am leaning the way I am leaning. We'll see if I am better off keeping White or if I should have made the deal...

Edited October 28, 2010 by Delicious_bass

[osu1322]

I never make low ball offers.

I never counter other's low ball offers.

I trade often. My first offer is the one I expect the other owner to accept.

I don't have to WIN the trade, I only have to make my team better.

Both sides must prosper from the trade.

I will give up more value than I get in return, with in reason, if it makes my team stronger.

I consistently finish in the playoffs with more than my fair share of championships.

Owners who have come to know me take my offers seriously as they know they're not getting screwed.

Fair play makes for repeat business.

 

I'm with u. Repeat buisness is what it's all about. People who try to make trades like Colt McCoy for Aaron Rogers will never be taken seriously. By making fair offers up front it helps speed the trading process along.

 

Even if someone makes u an offer and they have misjudged ur needs let them know that. Then u can counter offer and possible make a deal. It makes for better play and everyone has more fun finding out if there "blockbuster trade" worked out in the end.

[Rovers]

I never make low ball offers.

I never counter other's low ball offers.

I trade often. My first offer is the one I expect the other owner to accept.

I don't have to WIN the trade, I only have to make my team better.

Both sides must prosper from the trade.

I will give up more value than I get in return, with in reason, if it makes my team stronger.

I consistently finish in the playoffs with more than my fair share of championships.

Owners who have come to know me take my offers seriously as they know they're not getting screwed.

Fair play makes for repeat business.

 

There is a difference between a low ball offer and a low initial offer. Let's take an example. Another team made me an offer, one player would arguably improve my QB position in a QB swap, but it was a QB I don't value as highly as others might, (Eli for Orton) but what the other owner wanted and needed was at another position. It was a two for one offer. Not being interested in that QB, I countered with Turner and the player he wanted for ADP, intending to up it to Hillis and the player he wanted for ADP. Apparently the guy got p o'd and insulted me. Keep in mind, the player he wanted isn't a bag of beans, it's a decent one in this league format and he had a glaring need there.

 

I would call the Turner counter offer a low offer, not a low ball offer. He would have gotten two starters, Turner (Hillis) and the other player for ADP. Hardly an offer that should get someone annoyed, unless I'm all wrong here. Hillis also has strong keeper value in this league, while ADP would cost a first round pick next year to keep.

 

I also try to make trades that help both teams. I think in this case, the other owner has placed too high a value on ADP. Truth is, if it weren't for a bye week problem (both Turner and Hillis) I don't think I'd do this deal anyway, I expect to play this owner in the playoffs and filling this hole in his roster could cost me down the road.

 

Same league, different trade... which was turned down. I got grief over that one too, even from owners who were't a part of the trade but I've been tracking it, and the owner who turned it down would have had one more win and 25 more points since week 5 when it was rejected. He was 1-4 at the time. Funny, everyone stopped ridiculing that offer now... go figure.

 

I think people in general are suspicious and do indeed think most trade offers are done to screw them somehow. Good trades help both teams.

[SeductiveNun]

When I make a trade offer, I tend to give a little more than I get back. Typically that's when I have much more depth but I am looking for that 1 player to put me over the top. I still look at the other person's roster to make sure I am helping them out with their weaknesses prior to offering the trade though.

 

I tend to find that teams that are on top of the league - with maybe 0 to 2 losses (at this point in the season) are more reluctant to trade based on the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. I happen to be in that position in one of my leagues, and I have received 5 trade offers so far this year - all of which I turned down because quite frankly it wouldn't help my team that much. Each trade I rejected though I explained to the other person why I didn't want to make the trade. I have had some pretty bad offers in those trades as well, but I don't slam the other owner for it, I just politely decline saying I'm not interested.

 

Now then, if someone wanted to make a blockbuster deal with me, I'd be open to it - but nobody is offering players of that caliber nor did the other owners have players of that caliber I could make a counter offer for.

 

These are the trades I have been offered this year:

Bowe for J. Charles - early in the season when Bowe was awful.

S. Moss for T. Jones - doesn't really improve my WR corps much at all - offered this week.

Mark Clayton for J. Charles - again - didn't really improve my WR corps and I was gun shy about the Rams passing offense staying at a high level

DeSean Jackson for J. Charles - This was 2 days after D-Jax got concussed. Had it been prior to the injury I would have jumped all over it and told the owner that. Just unfortunate timing.

And my favorite:

Any WR on his roster with the exception of Marshall or Fitzgerald for Arian Foster. Trust me, there wasn't much there after those 2. This was offered after our draft but before the season began.

 

My roster:

QB - P. Manning, Bradford

RB - F. Gore, D. Williams, A. Foster, J. Charles, T. Jones (Start 2)

WR - M. Wallace, P. Harvin, D. Mason, E. Royal (Start 2)

TE - T. Gonzalez, Z. Miller (Oak) (Start 1)

K - Bironas

Def - Oak, Bal (2 Def currently because of bye weeks)

 

While the trades have taken notice of my weak WRs, it's not like I'm being offered much to improve that group. And also most of those offers were sent before Big Ben returned for Pittsburgh. I figured Wallace would come around once he returned and he has - and Harvin is playing much better. In addition, there are a couple guys on the WW that I wouldn't mind grabbing - Knox is first on my list. Still, I'm 5-1-1 and don't feel like I need to make a trade just to give another team a starting RB. I can snag mediocre WRs all day of the WW if that's what I'm going to be offered. Now if someone wanted to offer say Roddy White - well now the haggling gets serious - but nobody has the desire to go big like that.

 

Sorry to completely roll off the tracks with this post.