Vick # 1 Pick in 2011?

[BeerLeagueQB]

To stay on topic.. a lot of people considered taking Aaron Rodgers as the #1 pick this year (specially those in 2 QB leagues). Vick has statistically been better than Rodgers was last year on a per game average.

 

The guy can throw for 300 yards and still score some rushing tds on any given week. If the draft was starting today, I'd take Vick over any QB in the league. I wouldn't pick him #1 overall, but I wouldn't call anyone crazy if they did... specially not mock the person doing so like most people here are.

Edited November 16, 2010 by BeerLeagueQB

[BearBroncos]

So that's the only correct position, right?

 

It's the most rational until he proves otherwise.

 

 

Yeah, he got off easy. It was his operation. He was Mr. Big. The heinousness of the acts coupled with his status in the dogfighting ring would seem to indicate that he got off pretty lightly - like he has in other acts in his life.

 

In comparison to what offenders had been faced with, yes. Exponentially worse. He lost millions. Most cases there isn’t even jail time served. He was a highly publicized athlete so they got their point across to which I have no issue with. They should have thrown the book at him. He was WRONG but again, I go back on what a man does after he admits his wrong doings that determines a mans value the rest of his life. If a drug user says he is a reformed drug user but continues to inject himself with dope, he's no better than his word. If Vick changes his life around for the better, he’s a much better man than many even here on this site. He admitted his mistake and is doing everything he can to change. If he goes back, then he’s nothing more than a pimple that needs to be popped.

[Balzac]

So that's the only correct position, right?

 

Yeah - that's what I said. I'm expressing an opinion here, same as you. Did I say your position was wrong? no.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, he got off easy. It was his operation. He was Mr. Big. The heinousness of the acts coupled with his status in the dogfighting ring would seem to indicate that he got off pretty lightly - like he has in other acts in his life.

 

You should take it up with the people writing the codes then. He didn't get off easy according to the law as written.

 

What other acts has he gotten off easy with? You think he should've been thrown in jail for trying to bring Josh Gordon onto a plane? Stealing a watch? These are extremely minor offenses that would 9 times out of 10 result in a fine and probation. What else has he done that's so bad? He settled out of court w/r/t the Ron Mexico thing (which was a civil case, not criminal), so you know he paid a fat amount to that girl.

[Balzac]

It's the most rational until he proves otherwise.

 

 

 

 

In comparison to what offenders had been faced with, yes. Exponentially worse. He lost millions. Most cases there isn’t even jail time served. He was a highly publicized athlete so they got their point across to which I have no issue with. They should have thrown the book at him. He was WRONG but again, I go back on what a man does after he admits his wrong doings that determines a mans value the rest of his life. If a drug user says he is a reformed drug user but continues to inject himself with dope, he's no better than his word. If Vick changes his life around for the better, he’s a much better man than many even here on this site. He admitted his mistake and is doing everything he can to change. If he goes back, then he’s nothing more than a pimple that needs to be popped.

 

+1

[Bronco Billy]

In comparison to what offenders had been faced with, yes. Exponentially worse. He lost millions. Most cases there isn’t even jail time served.

 

He lost millions because he made so many millions. He got off wth no time served on local beefs, and he could have easily been nailed with RICO violations. He was allowed to plead guilty of ICC violations and got over 3 years less than what the maximum allowable sentence was.

 

Please provide documentation that those who organize, run, and bankroll activities such as those a major organized dogfighting/gambling ring get off with no time served.

[dug]

Yes, I love my dogs more than almost every person on this planet. They are better creatures than most people in today's society.

 

 

 

 

Vick is a piece of diaper dirt. Bottom line.

Edited November 16, 2010 by dug

[Delicious_bass]

I know exactly what Vick did to those animals and I was appalled as well but I'm also a man who thinks a person can better themselves and should be afforded a second chance.

 

I just think that people who are not willing to forgive have as much issues as many of those who perpetrate. Maybe there is some underlying issues deep that cause such resentment?

How do you figure he's bettered himself? Because he is no longer torturring and killing dogs for fun/profit? Why isnt he doing that anymore? Because he really had an epiphany that showed him the error of his ways? Or because he got busted, thrown in the tank, and is now being watched closely?

 

And if you're so into forgiveness and second chances, then you should allow for that when some of us here cant stand Vick for the disgusting POS he is. I dont care that he went to jail and served his time. Its doesnt take back for a minute what he did and I dont believe for a second that he wouldnt still be doing it if he wasnt caught.

 

Vick is not rehabilitated, IMO. He is restrained. Give him his choice without consequence, he goes back to the dogfighting. He didnt get that deep into it unless he got off on it.

 

Vick committed a pretty heinous crime and did the time prescribed by our society - get over it. You really think going to jail had no impact on this guy? You think he wants to go back again and lose everything that he's worked to get back in his life? He's got a lot to lose (a lot more than 99.9% of criminals and ex-cons in this country) and I think our correctional program showed him that. I really think he's a changed man.

 

I honestly think that so much of this venom being spit at the guy is petty jealousy. He did some seriously f'd up stuff and he's still making more money that they are, so people get their panties in a bunch. He paid his debt to society. You may not agree with the sentence or whatever but it is what it is. Get pissed at the system if you're going to get pissed at anything - Vick, like everyone else, deserved a second chance and he's making the most of it.

Lets not overlook that he had life by the tail before, too. Money, fame, etc. ALL he had to do was keep out of trouble. Couldnt do it. He's shown repeatedly he cant do it. The people he associates with have shown repeatedly they cant do it. His little brother has shown repeatedly he cant do it. These guys are POS thugs and that is it. Sure, he seems to be flying straight now but is that because he really does feel remorse for what he was into or because he got caught and that option was taken away? It wasnt like Vick snapped one night and killed two of his girlfirend's dogs in a rage because he was pissed at her. That I could buy is a mistake. That I could cut him some slack that it was a one-time thing and he's sorry/rehabbed. What Vick was into was a lifestyle. I dont think a person can really say sorry for a lifestyle as clearly that is what that person is. He's a scumbag. People may be able to stop him from doing some scumbag things, but (deep down) he's still a scumbag and that is why I cant stand him.

 

Let me ask all the defenders this...if Vick wasnt perfoming well on the field, would you be going out of your way to "forgive" him the way so many people seem to be right now?

[i_am_the_swammi]

He was allowed to plead guilty of ICC violations and got over 3 years less than what the maximum allowable sentence was.

 

who gets the maximum in first-time non-violent offenses? I don't know of many judges that throw the book at anyone on a first-time offense.

 

He served his time, and while I still have a tough time rooting for him as a person (since it will take more than a 6 TD game to make anyone forget the guy is a turd), it's getting easier to digest, based on the fact that he truly does seem repentent, and has been about as solid a citizen and player as one could hope for.

[BearBroncos]

How do you figure he's bettered himself? Because he is no longer torturring and killing dogs for fun/profit? Why isnt he doing that anymore? Because he really had an epiphany that showed him the error of his ways? Or because he got busted, thrown in the tank, and is now being watched closely?

 

Absolutely because he got busted. I quit drinking and driving when I was 22 when I nearly received a DUI. Sometimes people need a good reality check to get them back into perspective and I truly think Vick's time the last few years is proof positive that some can change.

 

And if you're so into forgiveness and second chances, then you should allow for that when some of us here cant stand Vick for the disgusting POS he is. I dont care that he went to jail and served his time. Its doesnt take back for a minute what he did and I dont believe for a second that he wouldnt still be doing it if he wasnt caught.

 

I have to catch myself and your right, I'm no better if I don;t allow other perspectives or opinions on the matter.

 

Vick is not rehabilitated, IMO. He is restrained. Give him his choice without consequence, he goes back to the dogfighting. He didnt get that deep into it unless he got off on it.

 

There are kids who get into drugs and crime. Some stay that way the remainder of their short lives while others see the light and realize that being a better part of the community is much nicer than the latter. I'm will to give Vick the benefit of the doubt until I see otherwise. Thats my person. I've never carried a grudge and never hated. It serves me or no one else to harbor such hate.

 

 

Lets not overlook that he had life by the tail before, too. Money, fame, etc. ALL he had to do was keep out of trouble. Couldnt do it. He's shown repeatedly he cant do it. The people he associates with have shown repeatedly they cant do it. His little brother has shown repeatedly he cant do it. These guys are POS thugs and that is it. Sure, he seems to be flying straight now but is that because he really does feel remorse for what he was into or because he got caught and that option was taken away? It wasnt like Vick snapped one night and killed two of his girlfirend's dogs in a rage because he was pissed at her. That I could buy is a mistake. That I could cut him some slack that it was a one-time thing and he's sorry/rehabbed. What Vick was into was a lifestyle. I dont think a person can really say sorry for a lifestyle as clearly that is what that person is. He's a scumbag. People may be able to stop him from doing some scumbag things, but (deep down) he's still a scumbag and that is why I cant stand him.

 

I used to drink, smokes enough pot to choke a small country, did some heavier drugs as well and slept with several different women during my youth. Well, guess what. I grew up, got a career and chose a life of sobriety. Hell, I just quit smoking just 5 months ago but I don;t expect others to follow suite as I did. I'm bettering myself and if some follow, good for them.

 

Let me ask all the defenders this...if Vick wasnt perfoming well on the field, would you be going out of your way to "forgive" him the way so many people seem to be right now?

 

I absolutely would! You could probably do a serach on my message when Vick was signed by the Eagles with me saying much of what I'm saying here today. The only reason I'm saying it again is because I'm not defending him because of his stellar performance, but the nay/sayers who have come out against him because of his stellar performance.

Edited November 16, 2010 by BearBroncos

[Balzac]

How do you figure he's bettered himself? Because he is no longer torturring and killing dogs for fun/profit? Why isnt he doing that anymore? Because he really had an epiphany that showed him the error of his ways? Or because he got busted, thrown in the tank, and is now being watched closely?

 

The whole point of the correctional system is to show people the error of their ways - it's not a simple detention system. Correcting behavior is what it's all about. I used to beat up my little brother until I got in trouble for it - is it then fair to say that I got off on beating him up and would still be doing it today if my parents hadn't stepped in, caught me and showed me that it was wrong? And yes - I'm comparing Michael Vick to a child in this sense because he clearly just didn't get it. Maybe he gets it now, maybe he doesn't. We can't say for sure either way unless/until he f's up again, which hasn't happened yet.

 

Vick is not rehabilitated, IMO. He is restrained. Give him his choice without consequence, he goes back to the dogfighting. He didnt get that deep into it unless he got off on it.

 

You're basing this solely on his conduct before going to prison, which I disagree with. I assume that you think all ex-cons are simply restrained and not rehabilitated then, based on the fact that they were inclined towards illegal behavior before they went to prison?

 

 

Lets not overlook that he had life by the tail before, too. Money, fame, etc. ALL he had to do was keep out of trouble. Couldnt do it. He's shown repeatedly he cant do it.

 

again, you can't lump minor civil and criminal offenses in with the dog-killing. they're just not the same.

 

 

The people he associates with have shown repeatedly they cant do it. His little brother has shown repeatedly he cant do it. These guys are POS thugs and that is it.

 

So now he's responsible for the behavior of his associates and his little brother - got it.

 

Sure, he seems to be flying straight now but is that because he really does feel remorse for what he was into or because he got caught and that option was taken away? It wasnt like Vick snapped one night and killed two of his girlfirend's dogs in a rage because he was pissed at her. That I could buy is a mistake. That I could cut him some slack that it was a one-time thing and he's sorry/rehabbed. What Vick was into was a lifestyle. I dont think a person can really say sorry for a lifestyle as clearly that is what that person is. He's a scumbag. People may be able to stop him from doing some scumbag things, but (deep down) he's still a scumbag and that is why I cant stand him.

 

You realize that dog-fighting is a lifestyle that is accepted in many cultures and countries, right? Are all of the people involved scumbags? Many people simply aren't raised to respect animals the same way a lot of others do - that's just how it is. I don't agree with it at all (I'm a dog owner myself) but different cultures have different views of what is right and wrong. All I'm saying here is that maybe Vick has actually come to see that killing dogs is hurtful to many people and is wrong in its essence. You seem to think that that simply isn't possible for some reason.

 

Let me ask all the defenders this...if Vick wasnt perfoming well on the field, would you be going out of your way to "forgive" him the way so many people seem to be right now?

 

Yes - we had the same debates/threads here a year ago and I was saying the same stuff.

[TimC]

My aunt lived in Newport News, VA her whole life (where Vick was born) and I can tell you it is gone downhill in the past 30 years like most cities, but that isn't one of these fictional places he has invented in America that you can abuse and fight dogs and think they aren't scumbags.

 

Oh well, this thread proves every idiot person/organization has an apologist following them around making excuses for their behavior no matter how wrong it is. Sad people like that exists. You need to read up on what Vick did to those defenseless animals and see if he's still worth defending.

Edited November 16, 2010 by TimC

[dug]

You realize that dog-fighting is a lifestyle that is accepted in many cultures and countries, right? Are all of the people involved scumbags?

 

YES

and it is sad that you dont realize that.

[Balzac]

YES

and it is sad that you dont realize that.

 

So people who engage in legal dog-fighting in other countries are, by definition, scumbags? Despite the fact that it has never been impressed upon them that a dog's life is something to be valued? To them, they are simply engaging in a perfectly legal activity that others engage in regularly. Your inability to see beyond your own culture is somewhat staggering.

[dug]

So people who engage in legal dog-fighting in other countries are, by definition, scumbags? Despite the fact that it has never been impressed upon them that a dog's life is something to be valued? To them, they are simply engaging in a perfectly legal activity that others engage in regularly. Your inability to see beyond your own culture is somewhat staggering.

In some countries it is acceptable to stone a woman for having sexual relations outside of marriage. Is that acceptable to you? Are those people simply engaging in a perfectly legal activity or are that committing a crime on humanity?

[Balzac]

My aunt lived in Newport News, VA her whole life (where Vick was born) and I can tell you it is gone downhill in the past 30 years like most cities, but that isn't one of these fictional places he has invented in America that you can abuse and fight dogs and think they aren't scumbags.

 

Oh well, this thread proves every idiot person/organization has an apologist following them around making excuses for their behavior no matter how wrong it is. Sad people like that exists. You need to read up on what Vick did to those defenseless animals and see if he's still worth defending.

 

Maybe you should go back and read what's actually been written here before making statements like the above. Nobody has excused any of Vick's behavior. All I've done is provide an explanation (very different from an excuse) as to why he might have been very susceptible to rehabilitation. If people aren't raised to think that something is wrong, I don't immediately label them "scumbag" because they don't think it's wrong. If they are shown how their society views the behavior as wrong and they persist with it, then yeah - I'll call that person a scumbag.

[Delicious_bass]

My aunt lived in Newport News, VA her whole life (where Vick was born) and I can tell you it is gone downhill in the past 30 years like most cities, but that isn't one of these fictional places he has invented in America that you can abuse and fight dogs and think they aren't scumbags.

 

Oh well, this thread proves every idiot person/organization has an apologist following them around making excuses for their behavior no matter how wrong it is. Sad people like that exists. You need to read up on what Vick did to those defenseless animals and see if he's still worth defending.

Basically sums it up right there.

 

Makes me that there are so many people falling all over themselves to celebrate the guy because he's helping their NFL team or fantasy teams win. People can spare me all the feel good nonsense about a guy who has supposedly become a better person

[Balzac]

In some countries it is acceptable to stone a woman for having sexual relations outside of marriage. Is that acceptable to you? Are those people simply engaging in a perfectly legal activity or are that committing a crime on humanity?

 

No - it's not acceptable to me. Apparently you're missing my point, which is that I could see why someone raised in that country would think it's acceptable. I don't automatically denounce people for having the values espoused by their society simply because they don't coincide with my own.

[TimC]

The guy was born in Newport News VA. He went to public school and Virginia Tech. That isn't anywhere near the culture you are trying to use to justify his actions. You are reaching for straws and failing badly.

[Balzac]

Basically sums it up right there.

 

Makes me that there are so many people falling all over themselves to celebrate the guy because he's helping their NFL team or fantasy teams win. People can spare me all the feel good nonsense about a guy who has supposedly become a better person

 

to be clear, nobody here is celebrating this guy

[Balzac]

The guy was born in Newport News VA. He went to public school and Virginia Tech. That isn't anywhere near the culture you are trying to use to justify his actions. You are reaching for straws and failing badly.

 

WOW - now I'm justifying his actions. Are you even reading what I'm writing or just reading a few words and seeing what you want to see?

[TimC]

I'm pretty sure that the Hokies don't grab a gentle labrador that would never bite anyone (for example), tie it's mouth shut and release a pit bull you are trying to train to give it an easy kill so it will gain confidence in fighting another animal before a Sunday game....but Vick's people sure did.

 

Vick should be neutered so he doesn't breed.

[Delicious_bass]

So people who engage in legal dog-fighting in other countries are, by definition, scumbags? Despite the fact that it has never been impressed upon them that a dog's life is something to be valued? To them, they are simply engaging in a perfectly legal activity that others engage in regularly. Your inability to see beyond your own culture is somewhat staggering.

We're not talking about other cultures, though, are we? In this country, its illegal. If Vick wants to do it, he can take his punk ass somewhere else and have a blast

[Delicious_bass]

to be clear, nobody here is celebrating this guy

No? What is the title of this thread?

[Balzac]

We're not talking about other cultures, though, are we? In this country, its illegal. If Vick wants to do it, he can take his punk ass somewhere else and have a blast

 

We're talking about varying degrees here - I mentioned the different countries to prove a point. From a cultural standpoint, many things are said and done with regularity in poorer urban areas, despite the fact that they're illegal. People therefore become desensitized to the illegal nature of the conduct and simply aren't taught that it's a big deal. References to other countries where certain behavior is legal are just a clearer example of how this works.

[Balzac]

No? What is the title of this thread?

 

Haha - it's talking about whether to pick him #1 in a draft next year. Is that celebrating him to you? To me, it's a question of logic and fantasy football analysis. Do you suggest that people boycott him in fantasy or something?