Roto on Vick

[The Next Generation]

If I committed the acts that he did should my previous employer be expected to give me a job? Would that previous employer be looked down upon if they said no? Why is it so hard for anyone to understand why I don't think he should have been allowed back in the NFL? Although I think there's no justice in it, it's not about the money with me. But it's obvious to me that it's ALL about the money with the NFL. I don't think that he's remorseful for what he did, that's my opinion. I think he's sorry he got caught and he knows that if he wants to be rich he'll stay out of trouble this time and it makes me sick to see the way the NFL and the sports media slobber all over him like he's the savior of the league.

 

FWIW, I'm totally cool with the opinion that the NFL (or any previous employer) should have banned him. It's the bolded part I really don't get. You have zero evidence that this is the case. it's only your preconceived bias against millionaire athletes that makes you feel this way. All the facts and evidence, thus far (and I agree , things could change down the road), are that he is a changed man. Community service work (that is NOT mandatory, BTW), the SPCA supporting his efforts, first-hand accounts from people he's been working/involved with, etc...

[The Next Generation]

and if he did'nt play for the eagles, you would'nt be so quick to rush in here and defend his sorry ass

 

I never once defended him, but thanks for playing. All I ever said was I think he MAY be reformed. Am I convinced of that. Nope, not nearly. I just leave open the possibility and wonder why others are so absolute that he CAN'T be reformed.

[lkirc]

Come on TNG, you think you'd be posting the same thing if he was the Cowboys QB?

 

He's a POS. Just because he served his time, that makes what he did go away? You think serving his time makes him noble? He served his time because he got caught and had no choice.

 

If a child molestor or rapist or murderer serves his time, when they get out, we should all embrace them and welcome them into our communities with open arms? Sorry, not in my community.

 

This is quite a leap. comparing him to a child molester or a rapist or even a murderer. Let's keep our context here. Dogs are not people. Dogfighting is not serial killing. No one is saying he is noble, just that he has a right to work at whatever legal profession people will pay him for.

[The Next Generation]

Come on TNG, you think you'd be posting the same thing if he was the Cowboys QB?

 

He's a POS. Just because he served his time, that makes what he did go away? You think serving his time makes him noble? He served his time because he got caught and had no choice.

 

If a child molestor or rapist or murderer serves his time, when they get out, we should all embrace them and welcome them into our communities with open arms? Sorry, not in my community.

 

Sorry I missed this one earlier.

 

Probably, yes. I have absolutely no problems with people thinking he's a POS. The ONLY thing I don't get is why people think there is no way in hell he could ever be reformed.

[rajncajn]

So, to you, it's impossible that he could be truly sorry for what he did solely because he's a millionaire. Had he been a poor slob, only then could he truly be reformed.

 

I didn't say it wasn't possible, i said i didn't believe it. Given the nature of his crime, his background & the overwhelmingly obvious enjoyment he took in it I just find it very hard to believe that what you're seeing now isn't just someone who realizes he will be a bum on the street unless he runs the straight & narrow. I don't think it has anything to do with remorse. If you think I'm a cynic because of that then I couldn't really care less. I'm just not so quick to forgive & forget as the NFL, media & some fans are. I just don't think it's that easy to turn that type of mentality off.

 

FWIW, I'm totally cool with the opinion that the NFL (or any previous employer) should have banned him. It's the bolded part I really don't get. You have zero evidence that this is the case. it's only your preconceived bias against millionaire athletes that makes you feel this way. All the facts and evidence, thus far (and I agree , things could change down the road), are that he is a changed man. Community service work (that is NOT mandatory, BTW), the SPCA supporting his efforts, first-hand accounts from people he's been working/involved with, etc...

 

What the hell? So do you think I hate all the other NFL players too? That is sooooo far off base it isn't even funny. And before you go there too it has nothing to do with him being black. I've defended him myself to a coworker who was saying the only reason the media is all over him was because he was black (stupid argument).

Edited December 22, 2010 by rajncajn

[Turf Smurf]

he belongs on the same team as Ray Lewis

and Ray Caruth

[Turf Smurf]

Why is there so much hatred for Vick, who was tried, convicted and did his time? Not a word about Donte Stallworth or many of the other NFL players who committed crimes against actual people.

 

If we are going to draft people based on their morality, you will end up with a pretty small pool to chose from.

 

I don't condone what he did, but he is a football player, not your kid's Sunday School teacher.

The problem is he did it to a pet. In prison that has to be lower then a chomo.....at least on the same level.

[Turf Smurf]

There was an article just today in the STL Post-Dispatch about Leonard Little. His drunk driving KILLED a woman. But it was hardly mentioned after that year and he played 12 years.

 

Yeah, Vick did wrong. He paid his price. Let it go.

Nope. I won't. And screw you for wanting me to.

[Turf Smurf]

hey... Manson can be parolled tomorrow, I am still going to hate him.

 

The difference between Leonard Little, Stallworth and Vick is that Little and Stallworth had serious, serious errors in judgement. It doesn't make what they did right - or justify them, but they didn't wake up one day and say - hey, I am going to have a few drinks and run over a guy today.

 

On the other hand - Vick - did wake up and say - I am going to torture and kill animals for profit today. I make more money than 99% of America, but I am going to murder animals for money. I could pay somebody to do it for me - but nope - I am a hard worker and like to get my hands dirty.

[Turf Smurf]

But the real question is, would you consider doing it again, after having to give back a large bulk of your previous big paycheck, and being on parole facing a potentially larger sentence if you don't keep your nose clean...

 

After all of the crap Vick did as a Falcon (or didn't do, if we're talking on-field preperation), I'm confident that IF he hasn't changed his ways, he'll find another stupid reason to get locked back up and lose it all.. But until that happens, who's to say he can't perform his god-given talent, so long as he continues to keep his nose clean and is actually working to be a better QB....

 

Further, to all of the people who think Vick is an irreformable monster, let me ask you this: Have you ever heard a fantasy owner say "I wish Player X would tear his ACL", or even cheer about an injury... No, it's not the same thing, but it can show you how a person can become disattached from ethics when massive greed, or in the case of his colleagues growing up poor, might have to do with their careless attitude.... It makes me think of how some corporations will commit heinous acts against the public/environment purely in the name of profit. It's not that they're thinking about the consequences, it's that they're not.... They're being greedy and selfish, with no regard for others.... But does that mean they cannot see the light and change their ways, especially after incarceration and financial loss?

 

To think that someone cannot be reformed completely dismisses why they might have committed the act in the first place, and suggests a very cynical view of humanity... But again, if you want to believe that he's a thug for life, then there's no doubt he'll find a way to get locked up; But until that happens and you're selected for his jury of peers, it's no one's place to judge whether he can perform a job, unrelated to his previous misdeeds, that he's obviously qualified for...

So, I'm a cynic because he fights, rapes, and electocutes pets? I don't even know how to respond to that. Honestly, I couldn't care less WHY he did what he did.

 

I'll stop before I say something I'll regret.

[Turf Smurf]

So, in your opinion, what jobs should he be allowed to perform? Why is advancing a leather ball down a football field while guys are trying to take your head off something that he shouldn't be allowed to do?

 

I asked this before and nobody answered it. What if he was a singer? Should he not be allowed to record and sell records?

 

Or is it the money? Should there be a cap on how much money a guy is allowed to make after he's gone to jail?

 

It sounds to me like you're basically advocating a life sentence, but you only have to spend part of it in jail. The rest of your life you are free to live in society, but you're only allowed to do menial work for little money. Because, if that's the case, we might as well execute people for a lot more than we do. If they're not allowed to actually and truly rejoin society and get paid what they can, then what's the point.

 

If this is not your opinion, please clarify it for me.

 

And, listen, I like dogs probably more than people. I'm not in 1000 years trying to excuse Vick in anyway at all for what he did.

 

Also, don't confuse my point above with saying that every ex con should be welcomed into every place of employment the same as a guy who's kept his nose clean. And, believe me, Vick certainly wasn't. It's not like he came out of jail and every GM was standing there with a bouquet and a fat check begging him to come play for them. At any rate, if a dude goes to jail and serves his time and somehow lands a job and does great at it, at what point is he allowed to get credit for doing that job well?

You're hillarious dude. Bold statement after bold statement. And then a half page in full retreat. Do you really know WHAT you belive?

[Duchess Jack]

Further, to all of the people who think Vick is an irreformable monster, let me ask you this: Have you ever heard a fantasy owner say "I wish Player X would tear his ACL", or even cheer about an injury... No, it's not the same thing, but it can show you how a person can become disattached from ethics when massive greed.

 

I've done this. You say its not the same thing and you're correct, nobody is dring here, but I have said wanted (whether real or not) - a player to get hurt). With that said, I've never hit anyone in the knee with a tire iron and would not hit, say, Benson in the knee with a tire iron because I am tired of waiting for B Scott to get his chance.

 

in the case of his colleagues growing up poor, might have to do with their careless attitude.... It makes me think of how some corporations will commit heinous acts against the public/environment purely in the name of profit. It's not that they're thinking about the consequences, it's that they're not

 

If you want to heap on corporations, we've got the tailgate for it and I'd be all ears. As for colleagues growing up - the same thing can be said for a person molested by a family member. They'd have a more likely chance of doing it themselves (learned behavior, deviant behavior) but would that make it right?

 

To think that someone cannot be reformed completely dismisses why they might have committed the act in the first place, and suggests a very cynical view of humanity... But again, if you want to believe that he's a thug for life, then there's no doubt he'll find a way to get locked up; But until that happens and you're selected for his jury of peers, it's no one's place to judge whether he can perform a job, unrelated to his previous misdeeds, that he's obviously qualified for...

 

I believe in the chance to be 'reformed'. Again, what is the point of trying otherwise. Same things applies with Christianity. You need to give folk a reason to try to be better. There are certain folk though with a lot of evil in them and that evil doesn't just go away in a couple years. It didn't just happen in a couple years and I'd venture that it could take longer to lose an bad part of you than it does to aquire it.

[Turf Smurf]

If I committed the acts that he did should my previous employer be expected to give me a job? Would that previous employer be looked down upon if they said no? Why is it so hard for anyone to understand why I don't think he should have been allowed back in the NFL? Although I think there's no justice in it, it's not about the money with me. But it's obvious to me that it's ALL about the money with the NFL. I don't think that he's remorseful for what he did, that's my opinion. I think he's sorry he got caught and he knows that if he wants to be rich he'll stay out of trouble this time and it makes me sick to see the way the NFL and the sports media slobber all over him like he's the savior of the league.

 

There's the point.

[Turf Smurf]

I believe in rehabilitation. I have to. It gives people a reason to try. It gives people a reason to better themselves. If folk will always be seen as what they once did, then what reason is there for them every to put the effort into changing.This is applicable to Vick. He has every right to play football - but I have every right to hate him. As consumers, we can do at least a little bit to help this by not supporting him, by not buying Vick (or Eagles) merchandise and by speaking our minds. Its a small thing, but its something.

Who frikkin cares???

[Duchess Jack]

Who frikkin cares???

Really? I do. I kind of like that people can work to become better. I like that people can work to raise above the wrongs in their past. Its actually a very imporant concept to me.

Edited December 22, 2010 by Duchess Jack

[Turf Smurf]

So, to you, it's impossible that he could be truly sorry for what he did solely because he's a millionaire. Had he been a poor slob, only then could he truly be reformed.

It's his character, not his money.

[Turf Smurf]

This is quite a leap. comparing him to a child molester or a rapist or even a murderer. Let's keep our context here. Dogs are not people. Dogfighting is not serial killing. No one is saying he is noble, just that he has a right to work at whatever legal profession people will pay him for.

Please, enlighten me! Exactly what is the difference between a dog raper, torturer, and muderer, from a human raper, murderer, torturist???

[The Next Generation]

I didn't say it wasn't possible, i said i didn't believe it. Given the nature of his crime, his background & the overwhelmingly obvious enjoyment he took in it I just find it very hard to believe that what you're seeing now isn't just someone who realizes he will be a bum on the street unless he runs the straight & narrow. I don't think it has anything to do with remorse. If you think I'm a cynic because of that then I couldn't really care less. I'm just not so quick to forgive & forget as the NFL, media & some fans are. I just don't think it's that easy to turn that type of mentality off.

 

 

 

What the hell? So do you think I hate all the other NFL players too? That is sooooo far off base it isn't even funny. And before you go there too it has nothing to do with him being black. I've defended him myself to a coworker who was saying the only reason the media is all over him was because he was black (stupid argument).

 

overwhelmingly obvious enjoyment he took in it - I think you can say that about fighting the dogs, yes. But, we can't know that it is true of the torture. he MAY have been coerced by the guy actually running the kennel to participate and didn't want to lose face. Maybe/maybe not. We just don't know about that aspect of it. And, who said it was easy??? The guy hit ROCK BOTTOM. No one is saying forgive and forget. Heck, even I don't forgive him. What he was a scumbag for doing what he did. I just think that it's possible that he isn't permanently hard-wired to do those types of things. Rather, it was more than likely learned behavior and peer influence that led him down that road. Hence, it is possible that he may be reformed...maybe.

 

And, no I don't think you hate all NFL players. But, you seem to base the reason for him not being able to reform himself on the fact that he can and does make a ton of money. Which I think is a stupid argument. Sure, it's a HUGE factor but doesn't negate the possibility of him actually being remorseful and/or reformed.

Edited December 22, 2010 by The Next Generation

[Turf Smurf]

Really? I do. I kind of like that people can work to become better. I like that people can work to raise above the wrongs in their past. Its actually a very imporant concept to me.

My point was that I'm not concerned about the underlying causation as much as I am about the act it self. I may be narrow minded, but some actions are not forgivable. This is one of those, I will not back down from. It's sick he did what he did, and then goes right back to being a millionaire. 18 months, what a frikkin joke.

 

Edited: to add...not...&....then

Edited December 22, 2010 by Turf Smurf

[Hugh 0ne]

This is quite a leap. comparing him to a child molester or a rapist or even a murderer. Let's keep our context here. Dogs are not people. Dogfighting is not serial killing. No one is saying he is noble, just that he has a right to work at whatever legal profession people will pay him for.

 

Methinks you have no clue as to what Michael Vick was involved in. It wasn't "dogfighting". If you put 2 dogs in a ring and let them kill each other, that's pretty sick. But when you beat, torture, electrocute them, smash them on the ground until they're dead, etc., you take it to a whole new level.

 

According to the prosecutor's statement of facts in the case, between 2002 and 2007 Michael Vick and his co-conspirators Purnell Peace, Quanis Phillips and Tony Taylor killed thirteen dogs by various methods including wetting one dog down and electrocuting her, hanging, drowning and shooting others and, in at least one case, by slamming a dog’s body to the ground.

 

He didn't make a bad choice or poor decision, he was involved in torturing and murdering dogs for at least 5 years.

[Hugh 0ne]

You're a helluva guy Vick!!!!

 

According to a November 2008 ESPN.com news story, a report prepared by the USDA's inspector general-investigations division revealed that Vick, Purnell Peace, Quanis Phillips and Tony Taylor also put family pet dogs into the ring with trained pit bulls.

 

The report, dated Aug. 28, 2008, says, "Vick, Peace and Phillips thought it was funny to watch the pit bull dogs belonging to [Vick’s] Bad Newz Kennels injure or kill the other dogs."

Edited December 22, 2010 by Hugh 0ne

[Hugh 0ne]

Ya know, now that I think about it, you have to be one helluva an athlete to drown a pit bull.

[Turf Smurf]

My point was that I'm not concerned about the underlying causation as much as I am about the act it self. I may be narrow minded, but some actions are not forgivable. This is one of those, I will not back down from. It's sick he did what he did, and then goes right back to being a millionaire. 18 months, what a frikkin joke.

 

Edited: to add...not...&....then

He WILL be violent again and rape, torture, kill....mark my words.....this time it won't be an animal.

[rajncajn]

overwhelmingly obvious enjoyment he took in it - I think you can say that about fighting the dogs, yes. But, we can't know that it is true of the torture. he MAY have been coerced by the guy actually running the kennel to participate and didn't want to lose face. Maybe/maybe not. We just don't know about that aspect of it. And, who said it was easy??? The guy hit ROCK BOTTOM. No one is saying forgive and forget. Heck, even I don't forgive him. What he was a scumbag for doing what he did. I just think that it's possible that he isn't permanently hard-wired to do those types of things. Rather, it was more than likely learned behavior and peer influence that led him down that road. Hence, it is possible that he may be reformed...maybe.

See Hugh's last few posts. You might want to get your facts straight.

 

And, no I don't think you hate all NFL players. But, you seem to base the reason for him not being able to reform himself on the fact that he can and does make a ton of money. Which I think is a stupid argument. Sure, it's a HUGE factor but doesn't negate the possibility of him actually being remorseful and/or reformed.

Again, I never said he was not able to reform, just that I doubt that he has. And I don't base my reason on him making money. If you read my post above you would know I base it on the things that he did and the type of mentality it takes to do those things. It only makes me sick to see that he is being treated like it never happened and with that comes fame & fortune. I just don't see the justice in that for the things he did.

Edited December 22, 2010 by rajncajn

[i_am_the_swammi]