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Commentary on the lockout from a Browns (ex) season ticket holder


Lloyd Dobler
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Interesting piece.

 

I find a lot of his points very well defined and supported, and am sympathetic with the vast predominance of his letter.

 

I do find it odd that he is a Browns fan speaking about Browns tickets but uses Jerry Jones and the Cowboys as a specific and detailed point of reference for his discontent. Not quite sure how the price of Cowboys' tickets or how Jones spends his share of the league revenues affects an agreement of ticket purchase between he & the Browns.

 

I do find it especially odd that he very carefully lays out the current economic situation in the country as being dire and then bemoans that owners are trying to "extract" concessions from players that amount to leaving the past substantial gains untouched and providing an annual 5% increment in their capital compensation over the next few years in their most recent offer - despite his detailing of the state of the country's economy and the likelihood that this will carry over into entertainment venues like the NFL.

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That was very well written.

 

Bronco Billy must be besides himself as that wasnt an ode to the owners . . . .:wacko:

 

Do you dream about me at night? I can send you a poster size photo of me in a Packer Championship thong if it helps your fanatasies along.

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:wacko: Yer as self deluded as the billionaires you purport to represent here . . . .

 

I'm not the one who keeps bringing me up - you are. I could only guess that "brings you up". You seem to be infatuated.

Edited by Bronco Billy
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Interesting piece.

 

I find a lot of his points very well defined and supported, and am sympathetic with the vast predominance of his letter.

 

I do find it odd that he is a Browns fan speaking about Browns tickets but uses Jerry Jones and the Cowboys as a specific and detailed point of reference for his discontent. Not quite sure how the price of Cowboys' tickets or how Jones spends his share of the league revenues affects an agreement of ticket purchase between he & the Browns.

 

I do find it especially odd that he very carefully lays out the current economic situation in the country as being dire and then bemoans that owners are trying to "extract" concessions from players that amount to leaving the past substantial gains untouched and providing an annual 5% increment in their capital compensation over the next few years in their most recent offer - despite his detailing of the state of the country's economy and the likelihood that this will carry over into entertainment venues like the NFL.

First off, I know I'm admittedly a bit slow, but your last part was nearly incomprehensible to me. It took me a couple of reads to figure out exactly what you were trying to say and once I did, realized the reason I didn't understand is because I thought it was pointless. Why exactly do you find this odd? The OP is trying to say that rather than millionaires squabbling with millionaires over their "treasures" in order to invest in ways to generate more revenue (ie. make more money off us), They should be looking for ways to make the game more accessible & economical for their fans, the vast majority of which are dealing with difficult financial times. In a sense, the NFL is alienating the working class Joe's who made them what they are.

 

I also don't find it odd that he referenced Jerry Jones as a prime example. Note the mentioning of the $325 million in taxpayer dollars, not to mention the increase in ticket prices. Sure, the Jones example is at the very top of the extravagant (so far). But that is the direction the entire NFL is heading and a lot of teams are basically holding their host cities/fans hostage in order to do it.

Edited by rajncajn
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First off, I know I'm admittedly a bit slow, but your last part was nearly incomprehensible to me. It took me a couple of reads to figure out exactly what you were trying to say and once I did, realized the reason I didn't understand is because I thought it was pointless. Why exactly do you find this odd? The OP is trying to say that rather than millionaires squabbling with millionaires over their "treasures" in order to invest in ways to generate more revenue (ie. make more money off us), They should be looking for ways to make the game more accessible & economical for their fans, the vast majority of which are dealing with difficult financial times. In a sense, the NFL is alienating the working class Joe's who made them what they are.

 

I find it odd because I see the players demanding an annual 8% increment in their share of gross revenues as the sticking point in negotiations, and a point that given the rhetoric to date is not something they have any intention of backing down off of. They haven't even put a counteroffer on the table. It's the issue that the owners consider unsustainable.

 

 

I also don't find it odd that he referenced Jerry Jones as a prime example. Note the mentioning of the $325 million in taxpayer dollars, not to mention the increase in ticket prices. Sure, the Jones example is at the very top of the extravagant (so far). But that is the direction the entire NFL is heading and a lot of teams are basically holding their host cities/fans hostage in order to do it.

 

Okay, I understand this issue - but again, how does it affect this guy's Browns' tickets? And picking Jerry Jones as an example of a typical owner would be like picking Tom Brady's contract as being typical of player compensation. Jones hardly represents the typical NFL owner. It also seemed to me that this guy's beef is with the owners exclusively and the Browns specifically.

Edited by Bronco Billy
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I find it odd because I see the players demanding an annual 8% increment in their share of gross revenues as the sticking point in negotiations, and a point that given the rhetoric to date is not something they have any intention of backing down off of. They haven't even put a counteroffer on the table. It's the issue that the owners consider unsustainable.

 

And how is that relative to this fan's plight? Just the fact that he doesn't bring into account what the players are asking for doesn't mean that he doesn't think it affects him. He's speaking of the NFL as a whole & in the NFL, it's the owners and the league officials that ultimately make the decisions regarding the prices we pay. His issue is the Browns ownership basically threatening him by telling him to pay up or lose his season tickets despite there being a lockout.

 

Okay, I understand this issue - but again, how does it affect this guy's Browns' tickets? And picking Jerry Jones as an example of a typical owner would be like picking Tom Brady's contract as being typical of player compensation. Jones hardly represents the typical NFL owner. It also seemed to me that this guy's beef is with the owners exclusively and the Browns specifically.

It's relative because, while right now Jones may seem like an extreme case, that is the direction in which the NFL is headed. The owners don't want more money back to make it cheaper on us & that includes the Browns ownership. They want more money (they say) to invest in more ways to make more money off us.

Edited by rajncajn
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I think Barry is finally coming to the realization that attending pro football games is only affordable by society's upper crust. You know going into buying season tickets, etc. that you are being gouged and that all the cost that goes into attending a game is not even in the fine print. The owners are not catering to the middle class, but want your money to build a new stadium. And understand that it is all business to them.

 

Personally, I would rather watch the game on TV. Sure, I try to attend one game a year, but I have already admitted to myself that I really cannot afford tickets, plus all the beer, food and parking, the time it takes to get ready and thru the traffic to the stadium vs. the cost of watching the game in the comfort of your own home. Hell, football and video games are the only reason why I bought a nice TV.

 

To Lloyd and to the author of the letter, Barry, try a year off from the stadium. Spend the money on your family's real needs or invest it for your retirement or college for kids, maybe vacation time. Have some cookouts, play catch with your neighbor before the game, pass out on the couch in the 3rd Q while your team is playing like crap, see the other side us fans that do not attend games are on. Even better, send a signal to the owners that you do not need their stadium to enjoy the game. To hell with their letter.

 

Lloyd and Barry, the game will go on.

Edited by Scooby's Hubby
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And how is that relative to this fan's plight? Just the fact that he doesn't bring into account what the players are asking for doesn't mean that he doesn't think it affects him. He's speaking of the NFL as a whole & in the NFL, it's the owners and the league officials that ultimately make the decisions regarding the prices we pay. His issue is the Browns ownership basically threatening him by telling him to pay up or lose his season tickets despite there being a lockout.

 

I assume you missed this:

 

"We are now in the third month of an NFL lockout, where team owners are trying to extract concessions from players, after regretting their previous labor deal and, perhaps, self-inflicted wounds created by all those concrete monuments to themselves. They will never admit this, of course, happy to cry poor while keeping their financial ledgers closed up tight, free from prying eyes."

 

Where do you think that kind of statement positions him?

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I assume you missed this:

 

"We are now in the third month of an NFL lockout, where team owners are trying to extract concessions from players, after regretting their previous labor deal and, perhaps, self-inflicted wounds created by all those concrete monuments to themselves. They will never admit this, of course, happy to cry poor while keeping their financial ledgers closed up tight, free from prying eyes."

 

Where do you think that kind of statement positions him?

 

I assume you missed this:

 

"I don't care about your politics and you don't care about mine, even if I thought I knew the answers. Which I don't."

 

So please don't turn this into yet another one of yours and Det's pissing matches about owners vs. players. This is about the NFL and it's fans, which has nothing to do with the internal negotiations, but with the external effects of rising costs, where we're asked to foot part of the bill for things we can't even afford.

 

Teams are lobbying for stadiums with the tax-payer footing the bill, and in fact Goodell has held an Atlanta Superbowl hostage until we have a new stadium. Owners have lobbied for an 18-game season, but have no plans to reduce preseason tickets to a reasonable price... These are not labor issues, they're fan issues exacerbated by the uncertainty of a season.

 

Further, what is wrong about that statement? Unlike you, he didn't take a one-sided stance on that issue, though it seems very evident that the owners are "regretting their previous labor deal"... Him not being convinced that the owners are losing money and not liking the direction the NFL appears to be heading does not mean he thinks the players are right... It means he feels like the big losers in this are us fans, and I tend to agree...

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Unlike you, he didn't take a one-sided stance on that issue, though it seems very evident that the owners are "regretting their previous labor deal"... Him not being convinced that the owners are losing money and not liking the direction the NFL appears to be heading does not mean he thinks the players are right... It means he feels like the big losers in this are us fans, and I tend to agree...

 

If I'm not mistaken, I've blamed both sides for this problem. I do take issue with people only blaming the owners, especially when it is only the owners who have put any offers on the table to date. I've plainly stated that the owners negotiating strike issurance with the networks was just as scummy as the players' fake decertification. I also think there is middle ground here to be reached, but in order for that to happen both sides have to participate in negotiations - offer and counter offer. Only one side is putting offers on the table, unless you consider status quo to be an offer.

 

And as I stated earlier, I agree with him for the greater part. His deal is with the team - that's where he's getting his tickets. I have no truck with that. But it's also pretty plain that he lays this at the feet of the owners. That's his perrogative too. But if someone is going to post it here, it seems like that makes it worthy of discussion. At least I would hope so.

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If I'm not mistaken, I've blamed both sides for this problem. I do take issue with people only blaming the owners, especially when it is only the owners who have put any offers on the table to date. I've plainly stated that the owners negotiating strike issurance with the networks was just as scummy as the players' fake decertification. I also think there is middle ground here to be reached, but in order for that to happen both sides have to participate in negotiations - offer and counter offer. Only one side is putting offers on the table, unless you consider status quo to be an offer.

 

And as I stated earlier, I agree with him for the greater part. His deal is with the team - that's where he's getting his tickets. I have no truck with that. But it's also pretty plain that he lays this at the feet of the owners. That's his perrogative too. But if someone is going to post it here, it seems like that makes it worthy of discussion. At least I would hope so.

True, the article is worthy of discussion, but I still think it has very little to do with taking sides on the labor issue. But regardless of the author's perogative, I think you can apply this statement to both parties:

"If you should be doing anything this year, it's figuring how to make do with less, reducing costs to fans, giving them greater value in exchange for the increased pain they bear in supporting your expensive product. What you should not be doing is squabbling over what is, to many of us, already an obscene amount of treasure."

 

But again, I don't see how this discussion is about the players, when it is the owners who set the ticket prices, ask for tax-payer assistance, while all the while making the game less accessible to the masses who've made it into the cash-cow it is today...

 

Negotiations are what businesses do until they stand to lose leverage or it costs them more money than they stand to make... Until it gets to that point, I really can't blame either side for wanting their share of the pie... However, it becomes our business when the fans, the ones who supply the cash for this golden goose, aren't even given a second thought in what is in our interest...

Edited by delusions of granduer
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I think we need to create a thread titled "You're a Richard! No, YOU'RE A RICHARD! Oh yeah, well my Richard is bigger than your Richard! " So the pissing match can continue in a thread that doesn't hopefully have to contaminate all the other threads.

Edited by BearBroncos
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True, the article is worthy of discussion, but I still think it has very little to do with taking sides on the labor issue. But regardless of the author's prerogative, I think you can apply this statement to both parties:

"If you should be doing anything this year, it's figuring how to make do with less, reducing costs to fans, giving them greater value in exchange for the increased pain they bear in supporting your expensive product. What you should not be doing is squabbling over what is, to many of us, already an obscene amount of treasure."

 

But again, I don't see how this discussion is about the players, when it is the owners who set the ticket prices, ask for tax-payer assistance, while all the while making the game less accessible to the masses who've made it into the cash-cow it is today...

 

Negotiations are what businesses do until they stand to lose leverage or it costs them more money than they stand to make... Until it gets to that point, I really can't blame either side for wanting their share of the pie... However, it becomes our business when the fans, the ones who supply the cash for this golden goose, aren't even given a second thought in what is in our interest...

Precisely.

 

BB, regardless of your thoughts on where his blame lies, it's completely irrelevant to this topic and I think your passion on the issue has caused you to bring up a topic here where it doesn't belong. In other words, you're talking about your league in the NFL forum. :wacko:

 

I think we need to create a thread titled "You're a Richard! No, YOU'RE A RICHARD! Oh yeah, well my Richard is bigger than your Richard! " So the pissing match can continue in a thread that doesn't hopefully have to contaminate all the other threads.

I don't see a pissing match here. Nobody is flinging insults unless you want to count calling myself slow as one. We disagree on a subject & we're discussing it, big difference.

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I think we need to create a thread titled "You're a Richard! No, YOU'RE A RICHARD! Oh yeah, well my Richard is bigger than your Richard! " So the pissing match can continue in a thread that doesn't hopefully have to contaminate all the other threads.

 

Where is that occuring in this thread, with the very few responses where I got called out specifically with a mischarcterization of my position.

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Precisely.

 

BB, regardless of your thoughts on where his blame lies, it's completely irrelevant to this topic and I think your passion on the issue has caused you to bring up a topic here where it doesn't belong. In other words, you're talking about your league in the NFL forum. :wacko:

 

Wher he places blame isn't relevant to his opinion?

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True, the article is worthy of discussion, but I still think it has very little to do with taking sides on the labor issue. But regardless of the author's perogative, I think you can apply this statement to both parties:

"If you should be doing anything this year, it's figuring how to make do with less, reducing costs to fans, giving them greater value in exchange for the increased pain they bear in supporting your expensive product. What you should not be doing is squabbling over what is, to many of us, already an obscene amount of treasure."

 

I'd agree with this if there was even a snowball's chance in hell that the fans made any impact on either side in this case. Hence, I understand his anger towards the team, since that is who he is in direct contract with for the tickets.

 

The teams (owners) at a minimum ought to be looking after the goodwill of their business by cutting fans some slack on ticketing/payment procedures. Watching both sides act this way and then expecting fans to ante up for down payments on tickets, seat premiums, etc is quite simply foolhardy on the part of the owners. If fans didn't have enough reasons to find another place to invest their money, they just got a prime reason for doing so. The arrogance to want to charge fans when the players are locked out and there is still a possibility of no football, when a lot of hard working fans are already hurting financially, is nothing less than monumentally stupid.

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Where is that occuring in this thread, with the very few responses where I got called out specifically with a mischarcterization of my position.

 

You're the bad guy here BB only because you and a scant few others have the balls to publicly display your opinion.

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