Daniel Thomas vs Mark Ingram

[delusions of grandeur]

Just curious what you guys think about Thomas. I really haven't done much research on him since I haven't had the opportunity in dynasty rookie drafts, and will most likely pass in redraft with him likely being over valued... But I noticed several people in the advice forum who have him above Ingram on their list for a dynasty draft. Is this just a lack of faith in Payton committing to a feature back, or the lure of the run-first Miami offense, or do people really feel like he's the real deal over Ingram?

 

Would like to know if/why you'd take him over Ingram or not in any other format besides redraft?

Edited May 31, 2011 by delusions of granduer

[darin3]

I watch a ton of Big-12 football (UT fan). Daniel Thomas is a complete back. A workhorse. Didn't catch a ton of balls (52 in his 2 seasons at K-State) but appears to be capable enough to be somewhat of a threat to catch the ball out of the backfield. As a defense, you'd hate to face him no matter how good the rest of the offense was. You knew he would be getting the ball, and sure, you might stop him a bunch of times, but he'd grind and then break a few nice gainers and you'd be deflated. Over 5 ypc at K-State, 30 TDs. Good stats for a pass-happy conference. He's obviously landed in a pretty nifty situation with Miami's offense and the fact that Brown and Williams are likely gone-zo.

 

I also watch a ton of SEC football (wife's family are LSU fans). Mark Ingram is a very, very good back. He's also pretty much as complete as you can get. He caught 32 balls his junior season and 21 in his injury-shortened senior campaign. He's not as big as you'd think (5'9", 215). As you mention, the Saints aren't exactly known for going with a feature back. On top of it, they do enjoy throwing the ball a bit.

 

If I had a top-3 dynasty pick and didn't need a WR, I would highly consider moving down a notch and would save myself potential heartache by taking Ingram. I think Thomas could potentially be very productive very quickly. Let's just say that Thomas has a higher ceiling than Ingram.

[tazinib1]

I drafted Thomas 1.2 and traded for him. I'm very high on the 3 down 250 carry ROY.

[SLAYER]

I drafted Thomas 1.2 and traded for him. I'm very high on the 3 down 250 carry ROY.

Does that mean a Sig line change is coming

[tazinib1]

Does that mean a Sig line change is coming

 

Wash your mouth out with soap.

Edited May 31, 2011 by tazinib1

[jetsfan]

Wash your mouth out with soap.

 

In short, you're saying your arms aren't long enough to hug two nuts?

[MustOfBeenDrunk]

I drafted Thomas 1.2 and traded for him. I'm very high on the 3 down 250 carry ROY.

 

 

Makes me fell good getting him at 1.05 twice

[DMD]

Miami has always been about a committee backfield by design since Sparano has been there and no back had more than around 250 carries. They love to run the ball, but they love to split up the carries too. They also split up the passes.

 

For my money, I have to like the best back being drafted by the best offense. With no QB of any note in MIA, the defenses key on the run. Not so in NO.

[kpholmes]

Miami has always been about a committee backfield by design since Sparano has been there and no back had more than around 250 carries. They love to run the ball, but they love to split up the carries too. They also split up the passes.

 

For my money, I have to like the best back being drafted by the best offense. With no QB of any note in MIA, the defenses key on the run. Not so in NO.

They might not have an elite QB like Brees, but they still have Brandon Marshall. Even with his attitude problems, he'll keep them from stacking 8.

[Tford]

Actually, no back has had more than 241 carries in a season for the Dolphins since Ricky Williams in 2003 with 392 carries and 50 receptions.

 

I think if you look at Ronnie Brown's rookie year (And remember, they drafted him 2nd overall). That's an absolute ceiling for the kid.

 

200 carries 900 yards rushing 4 TDs

30 rec 200 yards receiving 1 TDs

 

Me personally, I'm guessing 750 yards from scrimmage and a couple TDs. One of Ricky or Ronnie will be brought back or an FA will be signed to split with him.

[Brent]

Ryan Williams....

[delfamdelfam]

Ryan Williams....

shhhh...............

[darin3]

Miami has always been about a committee backfield by design since Sparano has been there and no back had more than around 250 carries. They love to run the ball, but they love to split up the carries too. They also split up the passes.

 

For my money, I have to like the best back being drafted by the best offense. With no QB of any note in MIA, the defenses key on the run. Not so in NO.

For what it's worth, I pretty much agree, but digging just a bit deeper reveals those numbers have caveats. First, Sparano has only been there three seasons. Not much of a sample size, especially when you consider: Ronnie Brown was hurt in the '09-'10 season and he's not an every-down back to begin with.

 

Sure, the trend is to have multiple backs that you can use in a variety of sets. Assuming Brown and Williams are gone, one could speculate (or perhaps "hope" is the better word) that Thomas could be more of the workhorse - as he was in college - with a shiftier pass-catching back available to spell him in certain situations. In fact, that's what many of the reports are indicating.

 

I'm not sure Sparano's three years with Brown/Williams is any indication of what lies ahead. Or maybe it is, who knows.

 

To me, the Saint backfield appears far more crowded with Thomas, Bush, Ivory and now Ingram.

 

I'm not saying Ingram isn't talented, isn't worth a top dynasty pick, or can't be a feature back in that offense. I just have less confidence in that happening than I do Thomas having a broader workload sooner rather than later.

[Infinity]

Actually, no back has had more than 241 carries in a season for the Dolphins since Ricky Williams in 2003 with 392 carries and 50 receptions.

 

I think if you look at Ronnie Brown's rookie year (And remember, they drafted him 2nd overall). That's an absolute ceiling for the kid.

 

200 carries 900 yards rushing 4 TDs

30 rec 200 yards receiving 1 TDs

 

Me personally, I'm guessing 750 yards from scrimmage and a couple TDs. One of Ricky or Ronnie will be brought back or an FA will be signed to split with him.

 

Even if he his 750 yards (assuming 10 yards is 1 point), and 6TDs(6 points per TD) rushing. That's 111 points for the season. Add the other things

20 REC and 2 TDs REC. (Not even including the yards receiving) In PPR where a REC is 1 point, then thats 32 points.

 

143 total points for the season as a rookie RB? I'll take that. I'll definitely take that as a RB2/3/Flex Play.

 

If he had those stats this past season, against all rookie's. He'd be number 2.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Infinity

[Zooty]

I drafted Thomas 1.2 and traded for him. I'm very high on the 3 down 250 carry ROY.

 

Well that's the kiss of death for him

[tazinib1]

Well that's the kiss of death for him

 

[DMD]

For what it's worth, I pretty much agree, but digging just a bit deeper reveals those numbers have caveats. First, Sparano has only been there three seasons. Not much of a sample size, especially when you consider: Ronnie Brown was hurt in the '09-'10 season and he's not an every-down back to begin with.

 

Sure, the trend is to have multiple backs that you can use in a variety of sets. Assuming Brown and Williams are gone, one could speculate (or perhaps "hope" is the better word) that Thomas could be more of the workhorse - as he was in college - with a shiftier pass-catching back available to spell him in certain situations. In fact, that's what many of the reports are indicating.

 

I'm not sure Sparano's three years with Brown/Williams is any indication of what lies ahead. Or maybe it is, who knows.

 

To me, the Saint backfield appears far more crowded with Thomas, Bush, Ivory and now Ingram.

 

I'm not saying Ingram isn't talented, isn't worth a top dynasty pick, or can't be a feature back in that offense. I just have less confidence in that happening than I do Thomas having a broader workload sooner rather than later.

 

The way I see it, MIA had a RB (Brown) drafted 1.02 and who had 16 game seasons two of the three years with Sparano. They also had a guy originally picked 1.05 (Williams) who has played all 16 games for MIA despite being 31 years or older each time.

 

The Saints have tried to make do with Pierre Thomas (undrafted), Chris Ivory (undrafted) and Reggie Bush who has never panned out as more than a third down back because of his size. The Saints have never had a decent RB and Thomas is average only because the defense ignores the run with NO. Cut Thomas - he will not be a starter anywhere else. Ivory is a practice squad guy who is a little lucky.

 

Sparano shared the ball in his backfield event though he had to use an over the hill Williams to do it. That's not an indictment of Brown since he has gained between 4.3 and 5.1 YPC while Sparano was there - they still would not use him as more than a tandem.

 

Neither team has a history of having a heavy use FT back but NO has never had one in recent years and had to make do with undrafted RBs. Now they get the best one in the draft and they're going to just rotate him with a couple of no-names who were never drafted? The Dolphins had Brown gaining 4.2 to 5.1 YPC and even in the two healthy years always limited him - trust me. I hate forecasting the backfield in MIA because they always use both and rarely ever allow any RB to have a good game.

 

OC Brian Daboll did rely on Jamal Lewis more when he was the OC in CLE ('07-'08) though they had literally no other backs to use. But the last two years with the Fins, he has never deviated from the committee backfield.

 

Agreed - Thomas lands in a decent spot as the fifth RB drafted (2.30) and he has upside to be sure depending on what the Fins do in FA. No matter what, I like Ingram in NO personally. I even leans towards Williams in ARI more than Thomas since there is not much competition there either. All three deserve to be high dynasty draft picks.

[tazinib1]

There is still a guy named Pierre Thomas that might have a say in the workload. He'll be 100% when things finally get going and recently signed a 4 year extension.

[piratesownninjas]

Is this just a lack of faith in Payton committing to a feature back, or the lure of the run-first Miami offense, or do people really feel like he's the real deal over Ingram?

Sean Payton has never had a runningback like Mark Ingram... Heck, he's never had a feature back before.

Anyone thinking he's a better player than Mark Ingram is high.

I've always thought of Pierre Thomas as a jack of all trades, master of none type back. I also think he wouldn't have been as productive on any other team other than one with an elite offense. Ingram will be the bell cow, and Ingram will be the goal line back.

 

Miami has always been about a committee backfield by design since Sparano has been there and no back had more than around 250 carries. They love to run the ball, but they love to split up the carries too. They also split up the passes.

 

For my money, I have to like the best back being drafted by the best offense. With no QB of any note in MIA, the defenses key on the run. Not so in NO.

Everything I've read has also said that Miami will be bringing in another runningback to split the workload.

 

And I agree 100% with drafting the most talented back. When he goes to one of the best offenses in the league, he's even more valuable.

 

 

They might not have an elite QB like Brees, but they still have Brandon Marshall. Even with his attitude problems, he'll keep them from stacking 8.

Marshall who may, or may not miss a significant part of the season. The same guy who is supposed to be a superstar, but barely broke 1000 yards receiving and racked up a whopping 3 TD's? I think he may be the most over rated player in the league.

 

 

1. Mark Ingram

 

2. Ryan Williams

 

 

3. Daniel Thomas

4. Mikel Leshoure

5. Stevan Ridley

Edited May 31, 2011 by piratesownninjas

[bushwacked]

There is still a guy named Pierre Thomas that might have a say in the workload. He'll be 100% when things finally get going and recently signed a 4 year extension.

 

Is that the same Pierre Thomas who has never played a full 16 games and barely averaged over 3 yards per carry last year?

[tazinib1]

Is that the same Pierre Thomas who has never played a full 16 games and barely averaged over 3 yards per carry last year?

 

That would be him!

 

And the other RB going to Miami? I can take a good guess at that being Darren Sproles..not much of a threat there.

[piratesownninjas]

That would be him!

 

And the other RB going to Miami? I can take a good guess at that being Darren Sproles..not much of a threat there.

Or DeAngelo Williams. Sproles going to Miami would assure us that Thomas wouldn't see the field ever on third down. With Marshall and a box of farts at the skill positions it's not like Thomas is going to be living in the redzone.

I could understand people thinking that Thomas is the no.2 back out of this rookie class, but to argue he over Ingram is insane.

[darin3]

The way I see it, MIA had a RB (Brown) drafted 1.02 and who had 16 game seasons two of the three years with Sparano. They also had a guy originally picked 1.05 (Williams) who has played all 16 games for MIA despite being 31 years or older each time.

 

The Saints have tried to make do with Pierre Thomas (undrafted), Chris Ivory (undrafted) and Reggie Bush who has never panned out as more than a third down back because of his size. The Saints have never had a decent RB and Thomas is average only because the defense ignores the run with NO. Cut Thomas - he will not be a starter anywhere else. Ivory is a practice squad guy who is a little lucky.

 

Sparano shared the ball in his backfield event though he had to use an over the hill Williams to do it. That's not an indictment of Brown since he has gained between 4.3 and 5.1 YPC while Sparano was there - they still would not use him as more than a tandem.

 

Neither team has a history of having a heavy use FT back but NO has never had one in recent years and had to make do with undrafted RBs. Now they get the best one in the draft and they're going to just rotate him with a couple of no-names who were never drafted? The Dolphins had Brown gaining 4.2 to 5.1 YPC and even in the two healthy years always limited him - trust me. I hate forecasting the backfield in MIA because they always use both and rarely ever allow any RB to have a good game.

 

OC Brian Daboll did rely on Jamal Lewis more when he was the OC in CLE ('07-'08) though they had literally no other backs to use. But the last two years with the Fins, he has never deviated from the committee backfield.

 

Agreed - Thomas lands in a decent spot as the fifth RB drafted (2.30) and he has upside to be sure depending on what the Fins do in FA. No matter what, I like Ingram in NO personally. I even leans towards Williams in ARI more than Thomas since there is not much competition there either. All three deserve to be high dynasty draft picks.

Fair enough, but I'll add that Brown was also in a 2-back system at Auburn and fared well there. Perhaps Miami drafted him with every intention of keeping the status quo with regards to his workload.

 

I think Thomas is the kind of back that Sparano will give every opportunity to. They'll sign a Sproles-y scat back to take some of the duties but I don't see it being a true, 2-plus back RBBC.

 

Pierre Thomas may be undrafted, but has proven himself - when healthy - as a good NFL RB. Ivory is just a little side dish that has proven his worth as well.

 

Trust me, I'd love to see Ingram rise above Thomas and the rest (Bush is really just a COP back, not worried about him). I just think he has far more to overcome than Thomas does.

[SLAYER]

That would be him!

Yep the same back that kept Mr. Stewert on the bench for his college career, until he graduated.

[tazinib1]

Yep the same back that kept Mr. Stewert on the bench for his college career, until he graduated.

 

what in the world are you talking about. Stewart was a 4 year starter at Oregon...PT went to Illinois.