delusions of grandeur Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 First off, no one is trying to discredit your thinking. I'm not sure why you personalize these threads so much. We are having a discussion where different sides disagree, no more. There's nothing personal, at least from my perspective. Secondly, you were taking a position that wasn't supported by the facts you were using. It doesn't mean your position is wrong, but rather that your defense of it was just a bit sideways. Third, there is no "right" way to score FF. If you and your leaguemates are all comfortable with the scoring system you use, then it is right for you. Because I don't like it doesn't mean diddly. You and your league believe that TEs are simply not as good/valuable NFL players as WRs, and so you implement that perception in your league makeup. I disagree and think a stud is a stud and makes a disproportionate impact on his team's performance regardless of what position he plays, and should be scored appropriately in relation to studs at other positions if there is a way to do it(I do not extend this thinking as far as Ks are concerned, however). I do believe Witten is at least as valuable to the Cowboys as Austin. I do believe that Finley is at least as valuable to the Packers as Jennings. And I do believe that there is no WR on SD (and very few anywhere across the entire league) who can carry Gates' jock when he is healthy. You don't. That's okay. Fourth, BC is right on target. Once you fill your manadatory starting requirements, any other player used as flex players should be pooled by all positions that you can flex in your league. If someone elects to burn a higher draft pick on a 2nd TE because he scores well in a graduated ppr league, it means that he is also also drafting from the flex pool for his required starters at RB or WR. Nothing wrong with that - it's just understanding the rules of the league that one is playing in and optimizing value across your lineup. That's what really makes FF fun, IMO. I prefer more permutations, so I like TE value to be a bit higher so that it is more comparable to WRs and RBs. It adds diversity to the league. Others prefer their leagues to be more simple and straightforward. Again, if it works for you and your leaguemates, then that is the right scoring system for you. It doesn't make me right, but it is certainly worthy of in-depth discussion, especially on this board. If I can make a suggestion that might make FF more enjoyable for some others out there who might be willing to dip into something a bit more complex, I get downright pleased with myself. 1) What are you talking about? "Discredit my line of thinking" means my line of thinking was flawed and I see your point, not that you're discrediting me personally (seriously, what a rude thing to say about someone trying to have a discussion). Yes I agree, "We are having a discussion where different sides disagree, no more. There's nothing personal, at least from my perspective." 2) Am now asking BC his opinion on the seemingly top-heavy nature of it, nothing more nothing less. Yes, no one is right or wrong, but I play in both kinds of leagues, so am interested to discuss the pros and cons of both. 3/4/5) Thanks for your input though (no sarcasm here). I can see much better now why a tiered system might allow for more parity, and where I was off-base. However, we'd already come to that conclusion through our lengthy discussion and was asking for someone else besides us (BC) for his opinion. We've both made our arguments for each abundantly clear, and your points are duly noted where I was mistaken. But anyways, I'm done with this thread. You're right it's all about preference, and there's no reason to hang around just to be infantalized by Bronco Billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 and there's no reason to hang around just to be infantalized by Bronco Billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Sorry, I was saying that the gap between the 1-23WRs was the same 115 points between the 1-12 TEs. True, I see where I've neglected the "worst starter", with more WR spots to fill, then you're correct that it's pretty comparable. However my original issue was more that it was heavily top-weighted (but perhaps you're correct that last years was not a normal year to draw from)... But seriously, when is TE ever deep with elite talent? That's where I feel it's far too skewed towards the elite talent, but maybe I proved myself wrong in that example, when I could wait quite a bit longer for lower-rated TE, and still do just fine pairing him up with top talents at other positions. As for the flex, I'll admit that was just flawed thinking on my part, since with a flex it would only help lower-tiered TE's in comparison to other flex players, rather than necessitate a need for a second top TE. So now that you and BB have discredited most of my line of thinking, do you still not think that it's a bit excessive to take a scarce position as far as top talents, and greatly widen that gap (in the case of my leagues more than doubling it with tiered PPR) between top and even the second tier? Keeping other positions and overall depth out of mind for a minute, that's the part that I keep getting stuck on... It's a tremendous bump for the top TEs that I still have trouble justifying. My intent was not to discredit your line of thinking.... in fact I'm not even sure if it is flawed or not. Realistically there is no right or wrong answer when it comes to "best" scoring system or "best" lineup requirements, etc. I can't really answer the question about whether or not a "tiered' PPR system creates a "top-heavy' position or not, as to come to such a conclusion would require analyzing multiple years worth of data to account for any outliers, analyzing the drops in each position adjusted for various lineup requirements, as well as to account for several permutations of tiering. Clearly a system where the receptions are scored 1, 1.5 and 2 creates a greater "difference" than a system that is 0.5, 0.75 and 1.0, even though the mathematical jump is the same, the higher point value of the first set provides a greater impact to overall scoring by receptions alone. There are countless variations, and one must take into consideration not just the PPR scoring aspect, but also the other scoring categories. The first set of scoring may be great for a league that gives 0.05 points for every rush/receiving yard (ie 1 pt per 20 yards decimal scoring though), causing a nice balance between yardage and reception points, but be horrible and cause an imbalance in leagues that are 1 pt per 20 yards without decimal scoring. Basically, there is not a simple answer to this, and the analysis for one league setup considering a tiered PPR approach could come to extremely different conlusions about the effect than the same analysis done on a different league setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osu1322 Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I'm a fan of PPR. I'm still trying to figure out why more FF writers don't care about PPR.... it's always a sidenote or they threw together a PPR draft rather then expertly make and discuss picks for the std draft.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikesVikes Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 So, if there are more leagues that use PPR (not saying there are, but sure seems to be trending that way), would that not make PPR the new "standard"? Sounds like the auto industry with adding lead to gasoline and then taking it back out. Both lead and unleaded have been called the standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolf Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 My local uses .5 PPR for WRs and TEs. While not a full point, I actually believe that it is skewing the value away from RB's and towards receivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikesVikes Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 (edited) If you use MFL, and I know there's a few around here who do , you can change your scoring rules to see what the effect would be to the players. Check out how 1 PPR, .5 PPR to the various positions effects the rankings of the player rankings. I've done that several times to make a point, or to see for myself what the effects would be to individual players and or player positions. You can see for yourself if there's too many TEs at the top of the list, too many RBs, not enough WRs, etc. Any Joe Blow can start up a new league just to test scoring rules out or to run mock drafts. People do that. Edited June 15, 2011 by MikesVikes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 If you use MFL, and I know there's a few around here who do , you can change your scoring rules to see what the effect would be to the players. Check out how 1 PPR, .5 PPR to the various positions effects the rankings of the player rankings. I've done that several times to make a point, or to see for myself what the effects would be to individual players and or player positions. You can see for yourself if there's too many TEs at the top of the list, too many RBs, not enough WRs, etc. Any Joe Blow can start up a new league just to test scoring rules out or to run mock drafts. People do that. I've done that and you can use the stats area of the huddle to apply your scoring system to the stats and get similar results. Then again I also don't like to educate my potential opponents too much on ways to really study the effects of scoring system tweaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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