Seahawks and Kolb

[Bronco Billy]

Rather that, he's likely a better bet than anyone you could have drafted in the 1st round this year or acquired via trade or FA prior to the start of this year. Because that's what's on the table. Forget talking about guys who are obviously not available, who would you rather have to fill your QB spot among those players that you could realistically acquire?

 

Despite the fact that you have no idea what the outcome is of the QBs drafted this year (and I agree that this is a mediocre class and it is possible that Kolb may be better than all of them), your statement here does not support Kolb being a top 12 QB, but rather only that he's likely better than what else is availble out there this year. Just because he may be the best option (which I still find debatable given his performance to date) doesn't mean that he's worthy of spending enough to acquire him at Philly's price.

 

Hell, I'm no Orton fan by any stretch of the imagination, but I think paying a low 2nd or a 3rd rounder for him - which I think DEN would take - is a damn sight better value than coughing up a 1st and a 3rd for Kolb.

 

I think the team that acquires Kolb and inserts him as their franchise guy is going to be looking for another franchise guy in 2 to 3 years after experiencing some very frustrating seasons in the meantime. The numbers support that.

[detlef]

Despite the fact that you have no idea what the outcome is of the QBs drafted this year (and I agree that this is a mediocre class and it is possible that Kolb may be better than all of them), your statement here does not support Kolb being a top 12 QB, but rather only that he's likely better than what else is availble out there this year. Just because he may be the best option (which I still find debatable given his performance to date) doesn't mean that he's worthy of spending enough to acquire him at Philly's price.

 

Hell, I'm no Orton fan by any stretch of the imagination, but I think paying a low 2nd or a 3rd rounder for him - which I think DEN would take - is a damn sight better value than coughing up a 1st and a 3rd for Kolb.

 

I think the team that acquires Kolb and inserts him as their franchise guy is going to be looking for another franchise guy in 2 to 3 years after experiencing some very frustrating seasons in the meantime. The numbers support that.

Below are quotes from my first post in this thread and something I only backed off to the extent that, since I wasn't thrilled with the Niners pick at 1.07, I suppose I wouldn't have minded having Kolb instead of that pick (but wouldn't do back-flips either). So, while I wouldn't give up a 1st and 3rd, I dared to say I wouldn't go so far as to agree that he's "at best mediocre". That I am not prepared to assume that he won't achieve top 12 status like you are. That's really it.

 

In other words, I agree with you to an extent but not entirely. Is that OK?

I think it might be a bold statement to assume that Kolb is "mediocre or worse", but he is worth, at best, a mid to late 1st rounder ...

 

I certainly wouldn't send both a 1 and a 3 though.

Edited July 6, 2011 by detlef

[Avernus]

According to Football Outsiders, PIT had a worse pass blocking O line than PHI, and I don't see anyone in PIT making excuses and Roethlisberger still managed to put up a very good year.

 

in the first 4 or 5 weeks of 2010...nobody had a worse OL than the Eagles....

 

I already stated this...the run blocking was actually decent, but pass protection was horrendous and <redundant> when Vick came in, the defense couldn't blitz anymore because he was too elusive for them </redundant> so they had to stay back...which helped the OL tremendously...

 

and still...

[tazinib1]

In other words, I agree with you to an extent but not entirely. Is that OK?

 

 

[Avernus]

The obvious point being that Avernus is using a poor O-line as an excuse for Kolb's poor performance. Franchise QBs manage to find a way to succeed despite that - like Roethlisberger and Vick last year or Rodgers the year before (among others). People who irrationally love mediocre QBs use it as an excuse when all other evidence points out their shortcomings.

 

how can you even say it was an excuse when you probably watched maybe one of the Eagles games (if that) during the month of September...

 

you're ignoring several points that I mentioned while attacking the ones that are easy for you...

 

you make things out to be black and white and they clearly aren't...the dynamics of the whole offense changed when Vick came in as well as the defensive approach which was easy ......just blitz, the OL can't handle it...

[Avernus]

Despite the fact that you have no idea what the outcome is of the QBs drafted this year (and I agree that this is a mediocre class and it is possible that Kolb may be better than all of them), your statement here does not support Kolb being a top 12 QB, but rather only that he's likely better than what else is availble out there this year. Just because he may be the best option (which I still find debatable given his performance to date) doesn't mean that he's worthy of spending enough to acquire him at Philly's price.

 

Hell, I'm no Orton fan by any stretch of the imagination, but I think paying a low 2nd or a 3rd rounder for him - which I think DEN would take - is a damn sight better value than coughing up a 1st and a 3rd for Kolb.

 

I think the team that acquires Kolb and inserts him as their franchise guy is going to be looking for another franchise guy in 2 to 3 years after experiencing some very frustrating seasons in the meantime. The numbers support that.

 

you're really dragging this wherever you can to try and win it....I forgot what it was like getting into arguments with you...you're pretty ridiculous..and I'm serial..

[Bronco Billy]

Below are quotes from my first post in this thread and something I only backed off to the extent that, since I wasn't thrilled with the Niners pick at 1.07, I suppose I wouldn't have minded having Kolb instead of that pick (but wouldn't do back-flips either). So, while I wouldn't give up a 1st and 3rd, I dared to say I wouldn't go so far as to agree that he's "at best mediocre". That I am not prepared to assume that he won't achieve top 12 status like you are. That's really it.

 

In other words, I agree with you to an extent but not entirely. Is that OK?

 

Tell you what, instead of simply arguing against my case why don't you support your case. Present some evidence that Kolb is a good candidate to be a top 12 QB. I don't see it when I plow through the numbers, but maybe I'm missing something.

 

Make your case and convince me that he's got more than a puncher's chance.

[Bronco Billy]

I forgot what it was like getting into arguments with you...

 

That I expect people to support their assertions with facts? Yeah, that's expecting too much for some people, I guess. I get the feeling that you've got Kolb on mutliple FF rosters and are convinced that you can make your rostering of him a genius move simply by hoping he'll be awesome.

[detlef]

Tell you what, instead of simply arguing against my case why don't you support your case. Present some evidence that Kolb is a good candidate to be a top 12 QB. I don't see it when I plow through the numbers, but maybe I'm missing something.

 

Make your case and convince me that he's got more than a puncher's chance.

Oh for dog's sake, read my first post, I made myself abundantly clear on the topic.

 

Now, when you consider that nobody ever drafts a QB in the top 40 picks if they don't think they have a pretty good shot at being someone who can lead their team to success, one would have to assume that every team who picked a guy this year, did so with that expectation. And that, given the circumstance, any of them could have been better off grabbing Kolb with the same pick they used to grab Ponder or whomever. Now, I wouldn't be so inclined to give up a pick that I could use for Andrew Luck, but that's another story. So, if realistically I thought that my franchise was in dire enough straights that I was realistically looking at that pick next year, I might not even trade a 1st round pick.

 

That is really it.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Q.B.'s I would definately rather have than Kolb:

Rodgers

Brady

Manning

Rivers

Vick

Brees

Roethlisberger

Ryan

Manning

Freeman

Romo

Flacco

Bradford

Stafford

Cutler

 

 

Q.B's I would just as soon have:

Sanchez

Garrard

Cassel

Hasselbeck

Orton

 

Q.B.'s that intrigue me as much

 

Matt Flynn

Dalton

Mallet

 

Guys with maybe the same future as Kolb

Gabbert

Locker

Newton

Kaepernick

Ponder

 

Guys who could run your team for a year as successfully as Kolb giving you time to make a decision

 

Favre

McNabb

 

Next year's rookie worth waiting for

 

Luck

 

 

I like Kolb.He has the benefit of youth with some seasoning. He has a time horizon I find more acceptable than a one year, stop gap guy. I believe he could be an adequate starter for a lot of teams. I don't see him ever breaking the top 12 in the league, but I could see him sneaking into the top half occassionally.

 

 

My apologies to the Tebows and McCoys of the world who I just didn't care to mention. You too Vince Young.

[Bronco Billy]

Oh for dog's sake, read my first post, I made myself abundantly clear on the topic.

 

 

This is what you posted that is supposed to be more convincing than his performance to date?

 

because Andy Reid does well with QB's and Kolb is probably one of the best talents he's had at QB regardless of production....he has a few years of one of the most complicated systems under his belt...

 

And then you take me to task for the way I argue?

[detlef]

Q.B.'s I would definately rather have than Kolb:

Rodgers

Brady

Manning

Rivers

Vick

Brees

Roethlisberger

Ryan

Manning

Freeman

Romo

Flacco

Bradford

Stafford

Cutler

 

 

Q.B's I would just as soon have:

Sanchez

Garrard

Cassel

Hasselbeck

Orton

 

Q.B.'s that intrigue me as much

 

Matt Flynn

Dalton

Mallet

 

Guys with maybe the same future as Kolb

Gabbert

Locker

Newton

Kaepernick

Ponder

 

Guys who could run your team for a year as successfully as Kolb giving you time to make a decision

 

Favre

McNabb

 

Next year's rookie worth waiting for

 

Luck

 

 

I like Kolb.He has the benefit of youth with some seasoning. He has a time horizon I find more acceptable than a one year, stop gap guy. I believe he could be an adequate starter for a lot of teams. I don't see him ever breaking the top 12 in the league, but I could see him sneaking into the top half occassionally.

 

 

My apologies to the Tebows and McCoys of the world who I just didn't care to mention. You too Vince Young.

None of the guys in group 1 are available.

Sanchez and Cassel are the only guys in group 2 that I wouldn't absolutely take Kolb over (either due to age or the fact that their ceilings are rather apparent.

That leaves a bunch of guys who've shown less and don't have unanimous "can't miss" grades as well as two guys who are very short term solutions if not already "ship has sailed" types.

[Bier Meister]

you're ignoring several points that I mentioned while attacking the ones that are easy for you...

 

you make things out to be black and white and they clearly aren't....

 

 

avernus .......... bronco billy

 

bronco billy ............. avernus

[Avernus]

avernus .......... bronco billy

 

bronco billy ............. avernus

 

I was introduced last year, I have bad memory though...I have always liked his insight on the Denver RB situation...

 

too bad I always see him doing this when he isn't talking about anything Bronco related...

Edited July 6, 2011 by Avernus

[detlef]

This is what you posted that is supposed to be more convincing than his performance to date?

You're asking me to prove why I'm not as certain as you are that he'll be mediocre? To explain my reasons for why I'm not prepared to make a blanket statement?

 

Do you realize what an effing stupid thing that is? I'm not the one who is making the prediction. I'm simply saying he's got as good or better chance than a bunch of other guys who we know little about. That's not exactly going out on a limb.

 

I've seen good games from him, and I've seen bad games from him. And, considering how hard it is to play QB in the NFL, I supposed I'm not alarmed by that. That, basically every reasonable person who watches this game sort of assumes that's how it goes down when you start out. Hell, you bothered to extrapolate his stats to a full season. And those stats are better than what Peyton Manning's were his first full season.

 

So, if you're asking me to prove why I'm not sure about how well he might do but am not prepared to assume he won't be good, then I'll go with that one. That Peyton Manning had worse stats in his first 16 starts and ended up being pretty good.

 

Good enough? Or should I show you Elway's stats as well?

Edited July 6, 2011 by detlef

[Avernus]

So if Kolb has issues behind a poor OL, how well can he do in SEA?

 

I don't follow SEA closely, but I think they pulled Carlson out of routes to block cuz the OL had such issues.

 

I wouldn't take him if I were Seattle....but Arizona is a different story....and Kolb would make better decisions at QB than McNabb....

 

Seattle's OL can also get better with another year together and maybe with the addition of a quality vet as well?

[tazinib1]

Stop comparing Ponder to Kolb.

[Bronco Billy]

You're asking me to prove why I'm not as certain as you are that he'll be mediocre? To explain my reasons for why I'm not prepared to make a blanket statement?

 

Do you realize what an effing stupid thing that is? I'm not the one who is making the prediction. I'm simply saying he's got as good or better chance than a bunch of other guys who we know little about. That's not exactly going out on a limb.

 

I've seen good games from him, and I've seen bad games from him. And, considering how hard it is to play QB in the NFL, I supposed I'm not alarmed by that. That, basically every reasonable person who watches this game sort of assumes that's how it goes down when you start out. Hell, you bothered to extrapolate his stats to a full season. And those stats are better than what Peyton Manning's were his first full season.

 

So, if you're asking me to prove why I'm not sure about how well he might do but am not prepared to assume he won't be good, then I'll go with that one. That Peyton Manning had worse stats in his first 16 starts and ended up being pretty good.

 

Good enough? Or should I show you Elway's stats as well?

 

I'm asking you to support your position on more than a hunch, since despite being provided with a substantial amount of data, you use that hunch as some kind of proof-positive that anyone else who disagrees with it is wrong.

 

BTW - Manning's first full season didn't come in his 4th year in the league. It's fun watching you pick rookies to compare Kolb to as though you are scoring some kind of logical points. News flash - Kolb isn't a rookie. I thought I had made that clear earlier, but you must have missed that.

 

The projections were done because there was a claim that if his numbers were projected to a full season, he would have been a top 12 QB. That was a false claim - which I demonstrated. You must have missed that too.

 

I also noticed that you didn't dispute DW's top 15 QBs. That would make Kolb QB16 at best. That makes him mediocre. At best.

 

In any case, I really did ask for something fairly simple - some kind of rationale other than a gut feeling you have that Kolb will rise into that top 15 list and displace at least one and maybe more of those guys. Otherwise he is what he is - mediocre, or worse.

 

Personally, i think you simply can't stand much of anything I post and just react in a knee jerk manner, and then fall back on derogatives when asked to support your position. It's kind of cute having a stalker, but I really wish instead that you'd come back with some solid well founded rebuttals. I learn a lot more that way, and maybe can see some things I missed.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Bronco Billy

[Bronco Billy]

Q.B.'s I would definately rather have than Kolb:

Rodgers

Brady

Manning

Rivers

Vick

Brees

Roethlisberger

Ryan

Manning

Freeman

Romo

Flacco

Bradford

Stafford

Cutler

 

Schaub?

[i_am_the_swammi]

I'd like to see you make this case. Based upon his games started, and giving Kolb the benefit of the doubt and calling the GB and WAS games 1 game for the sake of argument and putting together a full year's projected stats, and based upon the 561 attempts that PHI put up last year, Kolb would have projected to these numbers:

 

341 completions in 561 attempts

3553 yds passing

21 TDs

21 INTs

 

That would have put him #7 in pass attempts, #12 in passing yds, #16 in passing TDs, and #3 in INTs. That doesn't look like a top 12 QB to me...

 

Now put him on a team that only throws the ball 540 times like the average team does, in an offense not as QB friendly as PHI's, and tell me how he cracks the top 15 QBs in the league.

 

You stats are very convenient slanted your way. He got knocked out of Game #1, and came into the Washington game halfway through where even the coaches said they didn't have an adequate gameplan in place. But we can include them as one game so as to not be accused of nitpicking. But to include the Dallas game (Week 17), where McCoy, Jackson, Maclin and the entire OL sat out, is a joke.

 

Let's be real, and evaluate the games he started and/or finished that were meaningful games (GB, WAS, SF, ATL & TEN). If we do that , we get:

 

4,136 passing yards

24 TDs

16 INTs

 

Oh, and if you want to go back and include his 2009 starts, you'd get the following averages:

 

4,940 yards

28 TDs

20 INTs

 

You sure you want to keep this argument going?

[Bronco Billy]

You stats are very convenient slanted your way. He got knocked out of Game #1, and came into the Washington game halfway through where even the coaches said they didn't have an adequate gameplan in place. But we can include them as one game so as to not be accused of nitpicking. But to include the Dallas game (Week 17), where McCoy, Jackson, Maclin and the entire OL sat out, is a joke.

 

Let's be real, and evaluate the games he started and/or finished that were meaningful games (GB, WAS, SF, ATL & TEN). If we do that , we get:

 

4,136 passing yards

24 TDs

16 INTs

 

Oh, and if you want to go back and include his 2009 starts, you'd get the following averages:

 

4,940 yards

28 TDs

20 INTs

 

You sure you want to keep this argument going?

 

Yep. Arguing is good, as long as there is support for it. So, should we just use last year's ATL game and multiply by 16?

 

Then you can make a case for Kolb passing for 5216 yds, 48 TDs, and 16 INTs. How's that? Maybe you can find his best quarter of his career and we can multiply all the numbers by 64. That ought to make him look even better.

[detlef]

I'm asking you to support your position on more than a hunch, since despite being provided with a substantial amount of data, you use that hunch as some kind of proof-positive that anyone else who disagrees with it is wrong.

 

BTW - Manning's first full season didn't come in his 4th year in the league. It's fun watching you pick rookies to compare Kolb to as though you are scoring some kind of logical points. News flash - Kolb isn't a rookie. I thought I had made that clear earlier, but you must have missed that.

 

The projections were done because there was a claim that if his numbers were projected to a full season, he would have been a top 12 QB. That was a false claim - which I demonstrated. You must have missed that too.

 

I also noticed that you didn't dispute DW's top 15 QBs. That would make Kolb QB16 at best. That makes him mediocre. At best.

 

In any case, I really did ask for something fairly simple - some kind of rationale other than a gut feeling you have that Kolb will rise into that top 15 list and displace at least one and maybe more of those guys. Otherwise he is what he is - mediocre, or worse.

 

Personally, i think you simply can't stand much of anything I post and just react in a knee jerk manner, and then fall back on derogatives when asked to support your position. It's kind of cute having a stalker, but I really wish instead that you'd come back with some solid well founded rebuttals. I learn a lot more that way, and maybe can see some things I missed.

First off, let's get one thing crystal-freaking-clear. In this case, me "stalking you" and being hell-bent on disagreeing with you amounted to essentially saying "I wouldn't go that far, but I also think a 1st and a 3rd is too much". That's it. That's me "reacting to everything you say in a knee jerk manner". Simply not totally 100% being lock-step in line with your exact stance. Me, basically agreeing with you that a 1 and a 3 is too much even if I'm not prepared to say that he's "mediocre at best". So, if this was politics, we'd both be on the same side of the isle, you'd just have a more extreme stance than I. That's me disagreeing with you in this case.

 

You, sir, have a unique and peculiar version of paranoia and delusion.

 

Now, to the rest of your idiotic tome:

 

Yes, there are currently 15 QBs in the league that I would rather have, tomorrow, than Kolb. You do realize that doesn't mean that he's "mediocre at best" as you put it. That simply means that, right now, there are 15 QBs who have already proven themselves to be at a higher level. That does not mean that, given a year or two he could not join those ranks and even supplant some of those guys. But, rather, that today, they're all better bets based on what they've already done. Why would anyone rather have a guy who may join those ranks over a guy who already has?

 

Further, there are 32 teams in the league. So, if you are one of the 17 who don't have one of those 15 QBs that we agree are ahead of him (16 if you count Schaub), you still need a QB, don't you? Are you just supposed to avoid the position entirely because the 16 proven QBs are already on another team? Or do you take the guy who you think has the best chance of joining the ranks? I'm guessing most GMs who don't currently have a QB that is considered good are trying to find one. That's where a guy like Kolb comes in. A guy who poses as good a shot as anyone not currently among that list of joining that list.

 

Which brings up another point. Let's say you trade for Kolb and he starts putting up good numbers. But let's say that all the 16 guys on that list continue to put good enough numbers that the list of good QBs in the league simply grows to 17. That, through no fault of his, because he's putting up good numbers, he doesn't manage to squeeze past any of those guys. Are you bummed that you traded for him? He's doing his job, right?

[bpwallace49]

 

and at this thread . . .

[Bronco Billy]

Why would anyone rather have a guy who may join those ranks over a guy who already has?

 

I rest my case.

 

I don't see Kolb as being any kind of reasonable risk for joining that group. That makes him nothing better than a QB16 for his career if he doesn't, and that makes him mediocre.

 

You apparently see something in him that he hasn't shown consistently so far. So be it. We'll track this and see how it turns out.

[i_am_the_swammi]

Yep. Arguing is good, as long as there is support for it. So, should we just use last year's ATL game and multiply by 16?

 

Then you can make a case for Kolb passing for 5216 yds, 48 TDs, and 16 INTs. How's that? Maybe you can find his best quarter of his career and we can multiply all the numbers by 64. That ought to make him look even better.

 

 

I am using his career starts and finishes, minus one game he started with a bunch of 2nd stringers which most would agree was an irrelevant football game.