SLAYER Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Tebow is a great person and a winner, just don't know if that equates to a NFL starting QB considering the mechanics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron2112 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 "Air Tebow with the deep strike to Brandon Lloyd..." "Air Tebow does it again!" "Air Tebow lighting up the Chefs secondary!" I think it sounds pretty catchy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 one thing I know is that late in the season last year, the inexperienced, rookie, not-a-QB tebow looked a helluva lot better behind center than orton. not the perfect barometer, I realize, but seems to be a lot more relevant than some of the inane drivel and speculation in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 one thing I know is that late in the season last year, the inexperienced, rookie, not-a-QB tebow looked a helluva lot better behind center than orton. not the perfect barometer, I realize, but seems to be a lot more relevant than some of the inane drivel and speculation in this thread. If Saturday's scrimmage was any kind of indicator, we may see Tebow sooner rather than later. As far as pecking order, Orton ran the 1st team O vs the 2nd team D, then Tebow ran the 2nd team O vs the 1st team D, and then Quinn played third with the 2nd/3rd stringers on both sides. Orton looked great in the passing shell before the scrimmage, and then went with the 1st team O and could only convert 2 FGs against the 2nd string D as his drives stalled in the red zone yet again. Tebow had a rough outing with the 2nd teamers vs the 1st team D, going 1 for 3 with the completion a nice tight 15 yd out. He also got "sacked" three times - the refs blew the whistle as soon as the D player had gotten an edge on the pass blocker. But with Orton it was the same old crap - move the O a bit and then not finishing the drives. This is against Tebow's performance last year in the red zone where the team scored TDs 80% of the time they got there. As a side note, the O line, D line, and LBs looked noticeably better than at any time last season - something I expected dependent upon who they have added and the D scheme they have gone to. A .500 season could be within reach with some solid but not necessarily great QB play. Geez - this is refreshing after the past 2 years... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAYER Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 If Saturday's scrimmage was any kind of indicator, we may see Tebow sooner rather than later. As far as pecking order, Orton ran the 1st team O vs the 2nd team D, then Tebow ran the 2nd team O vs the 1st team D, and then Quinn played third with the 2nd/3rd stringers on both sides. Orton looked great in the passing shell before the scrimmage, and then went with the 1st team O and could only convert 2 FGs against the 2nd string D as his drives stalled in the red zone yet again. Tebow had a rough outing with the 2nd teamers vs the 1st team D, going 1 for 3 with the completion a nice tight 15 yd out. He also got "sacked" three times - the refs blew the whistle as soon as the D player had gotten an edge on the pass blocker. But with Orton it was the same old crap - move the O a bit and then not finishing the drives. This is against Tebow's performance last year in the red zone where the team scored TDs 80% of the time they got there. As a side note, the O line, D line, and LBs looked noticeably better than at any time last season - something I expected dependent upon who they have added and the D scheme they have gone to. A .500 season could be within reach with some solid but not necessarily great QB play. Geez - this is refreshing after the past 2 years... how does Mays look at LB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturphy Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) how does Mays look at LB? And Irving? And Ayers!? Any individual Def notes for us BB? ETA: I guess that's pretty off topic... Edited August 9, 2011 by Sturphy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 First depth chart of preseason released: DEN DC week 1 PS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUMbotron Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Curious, I never met any of these people. Both Young and McNair threw the ball all over the yard in college. Were there question marks? Of course there were, like there always is. But there was nowhere near the level of doubt with them as there is with Tebow and they both seemed to live up to their billing. Tebow, by stark contrast, was never asked to throw the ball around the yard. That's not his fault, but the game he played in college did not prepare him for the NFL as well as most others. I don't know about "many" in terms of Brees, but I was pretty surprised when SD decided to go after a QB in the draft they took Rivers in. Obviously Rivers ended up being nice, but I was puzzled, none the less, that they were giving up on Brees. He'd been injured and/or playing on a really crappy team for his first few years. And it seemed like the jury was very much out on him. Listen, I tend to agree that they may as well find out what they have. But let's not pretend that there aren't plenty who know the position well who have raised legitimate questions about Tebow's skill set. And, had McDaniels not reached for him and he'd gone where he should have, there'd be so much less pressure on Denver. Because then he'd just be another QB drafted in the 2nd round or later who may or may not pan out. Then he'd be like all the other "athletes" who played QB in college but were drafted to play other positions. We've gone through this before, but those who question whether this kid can do it are not the ones who are biased. They're the rational ones, because the data points to Tebow likely not working out. He's a gamble, plain and simple. It's the ones who assume that anyone who thinks he's not going to make it has come to that conclusion because they can't handle his goodness that are missing the point. Guys like Turf Smurf who are convinced he'll be amazing and is prepared to accuse anyone who doubts him as a baseless hater. Based on what? A three game stretch last year where he went 1-2? Not saying that's bad enough to bury the kid, but that's not what everyone is basing their concerns on. Based on the fact "he's a winner"? Great, first he needs to "win" the starting job. Because the concerns are based on the fact that most of us did not see his game translating. Sure, there have been others who overcame this, but they're few and far between. And now those concerns are furthered by the fact that it appears he's battling Quinn for #2 rather than Orton for #1. Again, I tend to agree that they should give him a shot and see what they have. But he has to meet them halfway. And it may be too much to ask for Fox to throw his first season away and play a guy who he seems to feel is not up to the job. Yep, Orton is miles above Tebow at this time. Fox has to play Orton. So what if Tebow pitched it around nicely in the last 3 games against teams that were mathematically eliminated (?)...... I will say, I don't know why Merrill Hoge rides the boy so hard. It goes beyond sports journalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Ayers is a light switch. He'll come up big and play well for a while, and then he'll start getting washed out and be completely ineffective a short while afterwards. There's no telling which Ayers you're going to get at any given time - and that might drive a vet coach like Fox nuts, maybe enough to look for less spectacular potential but more consistent play-to-play production. I think it shows that he lost all of last year trying to play LB, which he clearly was not capable of. As of now, he's starting, but if this keeps up he'll be a part time player in the regular season. Irving looks hesitant and that is likely due to his being swamped with all the nuances and learning curve without OTAs for a rookie MLB. Right now Mays is starting, and that is because while he isn't a stud by any definition, he is steady and understands where he needs to be at all times. Irving has some work to do and will most likely be relegated to reserve duty at the start of the regular season. It says a lot about how far Irving still has to come that he fell behind Haggan on the depth chart when DEN gave up on making Haggan a DE and moved him back to MLB. A guy to watch is Lee Robinson, for whom I have a personal soft spot. The guy has pulled off some eye popping hits so far and always seems to find his way to being around the ball. Right now Robinson is slotted as SLB2 behind Miller - who btw is a bonafide stud and could be one of those rare uber-stud type players who make a difference everywhere on the field, but if Robinson keeps showing up like he has I think Fox is smart enough to get him some regular season reps - and right now the only LB spot up for auditions is MLB. Robinson was vastly under-rateed coming out of college last year, IMO. Understand I that I have a strong personal bias for this guy, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 "Air Tebow with the deep strike to Brandon Lloyd..." "Air Tebow does it again!" "Air Tebow lighting up the Chefs secondary!" I think it sounds pretty catchy... "Big-Throw Tebow" Jeez, can't you guys rhyme? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 probably a safe bet, given "Tebow" doesn't rhyme with "air". Neither did Coryell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Cracker Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Seems Orton is getting all the 1st team snaps and outplaying Tebow in every faucet. You guys have managed to detail this thread into actual conversation and debate rather than addressing the real issue of who's the best plummer. I am very disappointed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 You guys have managed to detail this thread into actual conversation and debate rather than addressing the real issue of who's the best plummer. I am very disappointed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 that would be plumber... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 You guys have managed to detail this thread into actual conversation and debate rather than addressing the real issue of who's the best plummer. I am very disappointed! Jake had retired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingd Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Jake had retired. But the grapist hasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturphy Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Ayers is a light switch. He'll come up big and play well for a while, and then he'll start getting washed out and be completely ineffective a short while afterwards. There's no telling which Ayers you're going to get at any given time - and that might drive a vet coach like Fox nuts, maybe enough to look for less spectacular potential but more consistent play-to-play production. I think it shows that he lost all of last year trying to play LB, which he clearly was not capable of. As of now, he's starting, but if this keeps up he'll be a part time player in the regular season. Irving looks hesitant and that is likely due to his being swamped with all the nuances and learning curve without OTAs for a rookie MLB. Right now Mays is starting, and that is because while he isn't a stud by any definition, he is steady and understands where he needs to be at all times. Irving has some work to do and will most likely be relegated to reserve duty at the start of the regular season. It says a lot about how far Irving still has to come that he fell behind Haggan on the depth chart when DEN gave up on making Haggan a DE and moved him back to MLB. A guy to watch is Lee Robinson, for whom I have a personal soft spot. The guy has pulled off some eye popping hits so far and always seems to find his way to being around the ball. Right now Robinson is slotted as SLB2 behind Miller - who btw is a bonafide stud and could be one of those rare uber-stud type players who make a difference everywhere on the field, but if Robinson keeps showing up like he has I think Fox is smart enough to get him some regular season reps - and right now the only LB spot up for auditions is MLB. Robinson was vastly under-rateed coming out of college last year, IMO. Understand I that I have a strong personal bias for this guy, though. Thanks for the update BB, much obliged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turf Smurf Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 one thing I know is that late in the season last year, the inexperienced, rookie, not-a-QB tebow looked a helluva lot better behind center than orton. not the perfect barometer, I realize, but seems to be a lot more relevant than some of the inane drivel and speculation in this thread. And this site in general. Guess we'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 John Fox thought Orton was sharp, Tebow a “work in progress” Broncos coach John Fox seems to like certainty from his quarterbacks. Kyle Orton provides that. While Tim Tebow showed promise on Thursday night, Fox made it clear sometimes the plays didn’t go as planned. “Quarterbacking-wise, I thought Kyle was sharp and I thought Tim is a work in progress,” Fox said. “[Tebow] made some things happen. He’s learning, and I thought Brady [Quinn] stepped in and did a decent job, scored some points to take the lead.” **************** Well, Tebow is certainly a work in progress. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that he'll get an opportunity to progress much this season. "Orton was sharp"? I guess that's what happens when you hire a veteran coach. He must have been in the bathroom when Orton was in the red zone last night airmailing 3 passes well out of his WR's reach (as Orton usually does in the red zone). Okay - Orton's 2nd red zone pass wasn't well out of Lloyd' reach - Lloyd was able to make a fingertip grab about 3 steps beyond the end line. If you're looking for a FF kicker who willl be there in the last round of your draft and is going to put up a ton of points, you guys might want to take a long look at Prater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 John Fox thought Orton was sharp, Tebow a “work in progress” Broncos coach John Fox seems to like certainty from his quarterbacks. Kyle Orton provides that. While Tim Tebow showed promise on Thursday night, Fox made it clear sometimes the plays didn’t go as planned. “Quarterbacking-wise, I thought Kyle was sharp and I thought Tim is a work in progress,” Fox said. “[Tebow] made some things happen. He’s learning, and I thought Brady [Quinn] stepped in and did a decent job, scored some points to take the lead.” **************** Well, Tebow is certainly a work in progress. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that he'll get an opportunity to progress much this season. "Orton was sharp"? I guess that's what happens when you hire a veteran coach. He must have been in the bathroom when Orton was in the red zone last night airmailing 3 passes well out of his WR's reach (as Orton usually does in the red zone). Okay - Orton's 2nd red zone pass wasn't well out of Lloyd' reach - Lloyd was able to make a fingertip grab about 3 steps beyond the end line. If you're looking for a FF kicker who willl be there in the last round of your draft and is going to put up a ton of points, you guys might want to take a long look at Prater. You seem convinced Orton is the problem based upon last year's red zone stats. I don't think, though I am uncertain, that last years performance was consistent with his career. I sort of attribute last year to Josh McDaniels. Now I grant that last night seems to back up your premise pretty well. What I am wondering is do you see something in Orton's game, his decision making, his mechanics that explains what is going on, or do you simply think he has learned to choke. I'd like your thoughts explaining why he grinds to a halt in the red zone lately. Also, what did you think of Quinn the Eskimo last night? Seemed that when he let them in all the bitches came arunning to him.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted August 12, 2011 Author Share Posted August 12, 2011 You can see the uber confident Tebow here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 (edited) You seem convinced Orton is the problem based upon last year's red zone stats. I don't think, though I am uncertain, that last years performance was consistent with his career. I sort of attribute last year to Josh McDaniels. Now I grant that last night seems to back up your premise pretty well. What I am wondering is do you see something in Orton's game, his decision making, his mechanics that explains what is going on, or do you simply think he has learned to choke. I'd like your thoughts explaining why he grinds to a halt in the red zone lately. Also, what did you think of Quinn the Eskimo last night? Seemed that when he let them in all the bitches came arunning to him.. Unless Quinn has had a major epiphany during the offseason, he's nothing but glorified camp fodder. His decision making and anticipation are terrible, and I don't see how that changes even through coaching. Anticipating a receiver breaking open and throwing to the spot before it happens takes a lot of imagination, and then the courage to throw the ball into open space. That isn't something that occurs through repetition but rather seems to be more innate. As far as Orton is concerned, I don't think he has the cajones for the position. That's why he falters and his numbers drop so badly in 3rd down situations, 4th quarter situations, and red zone situations. All those have something in common - the ability to rise up when the pressure is greater. If he can't lift his own performance, how does he lift those around him to be better - especially in scenarios where performance is most critical. I believe that is a character trait also, which is why I don't think Orton will ever be the answer. The guy is a game manager, no more. He needs someone else to do the heavy lifting when it's white-knuckle time. When the game is on the line, he's afraid of making a mistake - not looking to make a big play. Orton looked better in CHI when he had others to lead the team, when he had a great D, and a solid running game to carry the O, and all he had to make was make a few throws to keep teams honest and then wait for the D to make a big play and win the game for them. Here he has to carry the team and be the guy who everyone else looks to - and that's not his nature. I honestly don't know if Tebow is the answer either, but I do know based upon a substantial book of their careers that neither Orton nor Quinn are. I see flashes from Tebow. There's courage, there's imagination, there's leadership. I've seen a guy whose footwork and throwing motion were awful in pre-draft tryouts, and now he gets back into the pocket expeditiously and he has a compact motion throwing the ball. That was through determination and rote learning. Last night I watched his wild scramble to the left sideline and then reversing and going all the way back to the right in the red zone trying to create something and I see a ton of ahtleticism knitted to an out-of-the box imagination and a desire to keep moving until something finally opens for him. What I don't see is what Tebow needs most - work on the field of play and shaking out the bugs, learning what he can and can't get away with in the pros, learning how to throw a receiver open and how to throw the ball to a spot where only his guy can catch it. Call it seasoning. The only way to learn those things is to get on the field. Imagine if Elway or Favre had to wait their turns for years behind mediocre turds like Orton and Quinn rather than being turned loose and being allowed to make mistakes, learning the whole time. Now, Tebow doesn't have either of those guys' arms, but he has a lot of other similarities with them. The athleticism, the willingness to try the abstract, the thinking out of the box, the buying of time and creating on the run, the desire to be placed into pressure situations, the ability to lift not only one's own performnce but that of those around you, the desire to lead your team to a win rather than hoping not to screw up and end up with a loss. ETA - Tebow's set of skills puts tremedous pressure on a D, especially near the goal line. His ability to turn and run can force D players into can't-win situations where they either have to leave their coverage to stop Tebow's run or allow Tebow to run the ball in. DEN scored TDs 80% of the time in the red zone last year when Tebow was in at QB in those situation. That's phenominal. Neither Orton nor Quinn scare anyone with their ability to do anything but throw from the pocket and to release the ball early under the slightest pressure. Let's see what this kid has. This team will continue to stall when it counts most under Orton. Quinn will be an unmitigated disaster in regular season games as the pressure is applied. This team goes nowhere in this NFL the way the rules are set up to enhance the importance of QB play. If Tebow fails that's okay and we'll know it, and we still won't be in the playoffs, just like we won't be under the other two. Then we take our lumps and look to one of the top 3 QBs coming out in next year's draft - all of whom have the earmarks of being franchise QBs. If Tebow continues to progress, then he has an additonal year of experience under his belt and we can use our top draft pick next year on other needs. But either way, we know what Tebow is. What we won't learn with Tebow on the bench in games and not getting the most reps in practice is what he can or cannot do, making next year yet another year of QB controversies and frustration. Elway, Xanders, and Fox have shown some real vision so far in putting this team together from what it was. Let's see them go all-in. QB is not the spot to play it safe when the guys you've got are mediocre at best and at their worst when it counts the most. Edited August 12, 2011 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 You can see the uber confident Tebow here Interesting. The story here in Denver is the same as BB has put forth, that Orton cannot finish in the Red Zone. Interesting to hear Tebow say he just wants to finish on drives. Without a direct slam he seems to be cultivating that seed a little bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 And this site in general. Guess we'll see. It is beyond funny that you keep playing this card, when you're the most myopic person in the argument. Most of us are just inclined to believe that he won't be good. Not absolutely, 100% convinced, just inclined to believe. We didn't think he had the tools coming out of college and haven't seen enough to sway us from our initial stance. That the majority of the qualified football minds out there agree with that, doesn't really hurt either. You, however, seem ready to throw down with anyone and everyone who's not prepared to start fitting him for a yellow jacket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted August 12, 2011 Author Share Posted August 12, 2011 (edited) Edited August 12, 2011 by tazinib1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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