405 replies to this topic

[bpwallace49]

The money comments are completely moot. Unions are getting money from outside Wi and Walker has been outwardly campaigning outside Wi for money from super PACs.

Both sides have money coming in from outside the stae, so it is silly to make it an issue for either party.

[bushwacked]

Looks like we've reached the inevitable childlike cheeze head spaz off. Never saw that coming.

[stevegrab]

gbpfan1231, on 26 April 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

Excellent - it was almost like that article was written specifically for BP, Bushy, Ground Chuck, Yukon and the other liberal whiners.

Oh god he is horrible he is ruining the state oust him!!!  OK how YOU going to fix it?  No idea just oust him because we lost.

What a joke and what an embarrassment.

Oh by the way BP - my dad says hi.

We had a similar issue in Akron OH recently with people trying to recall the Mayor. What were their reasons, well basically he's been in office too long, they don't like him and want sombebody else in charge. He is a Democrat and has been mayor for something like 25+ years. The Republicans cannot field a decent candidate, and the Dems only manage somebody who can barely contend during the primary.  The recall effor failed misserably, something like 3-1 in favor of keeping the mayor. But it was too easy to get enough signatures to get it on the ballot.

Recalling somebody because you don't like their actions, and trotting out replacements with no better plan is crazy, but sadly will become more common with the very bitter political climate in this country.

[Yukon Cornelius]

bpwallace49, on 26 April 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

The money comments are completely moot. Unions are getting money from outside Wi and Walker has been outwardly campaigning outside Wi for money from super PACs.

Both sides have money coming in from outside the stae, so it is silly to make it an issue for either party.

I was referring to policy not money. but we can go there if you wish.

[tosberg34]

bushwacked, on 26 April 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Looks like we've reached the inevitable childlike cheeze head spaz off. Never saw that coming.

Says the guy who continues to post childlike insults.  

Edited by tosberg34, 26 April 2012 - 10:35 AM.

[bpwallace49]

stevegrab, on 26 April 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

We had a similar issue in Akron OH recently with people trying to recall the Mayor. What were their reasons, well basically he's been in office too long, they don't like him and want sombebody else in charge. He is a Democrat and has been mayor for something like 25+ years. The Republicans cannot field a decent candidate, and the Dems only manage somebody who can barely contend during the primary.  The recall effor failed misserably, something like 3-1 in favor of keeping the mayor. But it was too easy to get enough signatures to get it on the ballot.

Recalling somebody because you don't like their actions, and trotting out replacements with no better plan is crazy, but sadly will become more common with the very bitter political climate in this country.

Pretty sure no one has endorsed the recalls on these boards (except Tosberg for recalling Democrat senators only, because he is super smart like that) except in cases of malfeasence. No one thinks that recalls should be used out of spite, no matter what the twins write.

[bpwallace49]

bushwacked, on 26 April 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Looks like we've reached the inevitable childlike cheeze head spaz off. Never saw that coming.

Veery surprising and :shocked:

[tosberg34]

bpwallace49, on 26 April 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

Pretty sure no one has endorsed the recalls on these boards (except Tosberg for recalling Democrat senators only, because he is super smart like that) except in cases of malfeasence. No one thinks that recalls should be used out of spite, no matter what the twins write.

When did I say that?  Or are you just making it up as usual?   Clearly you're so full of yourself you can't even be bothered to read posts.

Edited by tosberg34, 26 April 2012 - 10:45 AM.

[stevegrab]

bpwallace49, on 26 April 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

Pretty sure no one has endorsed the recalls on these boards (except Tosberg for recalling Democrat senators only, because he is super smart like that) except in cases of malfeasence. No one thinks that recalls should be used out of spite, no matter what the twins write.

Got that, it was just another example of poorly used recalls.

[bpwallace49]

tosberg34, on 09 August 2011 - 09:02 PM, said:

I believe WI senators are eligible for recall 6 months or 1 year after they are elected.  So, in short, you have a small windows where you can't be recalled but otherwise anyone can be recalled at anytime.

How about we recall the 14 senators who fled?  That is where the recall efforts should have been directed (although, some of them still may be in that "window" I talked about yet).

Tossberg you REALLY need to work on your memory or at least take responsibility for your posts. I know it is tough . . .  you taking responsibility and all . . . but dont try to say someone is making something up when you clearly have stated what was claimed.

[tosberg34]

bpwallace49, on 26 April 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

Tossberg you REALLY need to work on your memory or at least take responsibility for your posts. I know it is tough . . .  you taking responsibility and all . . . but dont try to say someone is making something up when you clearly have stated what was claimed.

Fleeing the state is a dereliction of duty.  Sounds like a recallable offense to me.

[bpwallace49]

Yukon Cornelius, on 26 April 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

I was referring to policy not money. but we can go there if you wish.

fair enough . . . I have read a lot from the twins and others about that evil outside union money that conveniently forgets that walker gets a lot of cash from outside Wisconsin.

Since both sides are doing it (and it is completely legal) then I would be happy if no one brought it up.

But that is just me . . .

[bpwallace49]

tosberg34, on 26 April 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

Fleeing the state is a dereliction of duty.  Sounds like a recallable offense to me.

So if Walker is found out to have abused his power as governor and exceeded the bounds of the law in the John Doe investigation, then you would be SUPPORTIVE of him being recalled, correct? Dereliction of duty and all that?

Edited by bpwallace49, 26 April 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[Big John]

tosberg34, on 26 April 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

When did I say that?  Or are you just making it up as usual?   Clearly you're so full of yourself you can't even be bothered to read posts.

http://forums.thehud...ost__p__3473129

[tosberg34]

Big John, on 26 April 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

http://forums.thehud...ost__p__3473129

That doesn't prove I'm for recalls for democrats only.  Fleeing the state is a dereliction of duty and in my mind is a re callable offense.

Dereliction of duty is a specific offense under United States Code Title 10,892. Article 92 and applies to all branches of the US military. A service member who is derelict has willfully refused to perform his duties (or follow a given order) or has incapacitated himself in such a way that he cannot perform his duties.

Edited by tosberg34, 26 April 2012 - 11:01 AM.

[tosberg34]

bpwallace49, on 26 April 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

So if Walker is found out to have abused his power as governor and exceeded the bounds of the law in the John Doe investigation, then you would be SUPPORTIVE of him being recalled, correct? Dereliction of duty and all that?

Abusing power or exceeding it is not dereliction of duty.  But if he did commit a crime then I would be for it.  You're putting words in my posts - Never said I was for recalls for democrats only.  But you're pinning your hopes and dreams on a two year old John Doe investigation.  You think something would have come out by now if it was such the smoking gun you think it is?

Edited by tosberg34, 26 April 2012 - 10:57 AM.

[bpwallace49]

bpwallace49, on 10 August 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

This is maybe the best possible outcome for Wisconsin. Not for partisan politics on either side, but for WISCONSIN.

The Dems pick up two seats, and the Republicans maintain control by a slight margin. If the Repubs would have swept, then the right could see it as a mandate to completely ignore and steamroll the minority without recourse. It could have led to another fleeing the state situation. If the Dems picked up more seats, then insta-gridlock at the capital. Nothing would get done.

But by losing two seats to the Dems, now walker can still proceed, but use it as an opportunity to reach out and try to calm the crazy emotions on both sides. If he does do this, then it takes all the air out of a Walker recall, which has a very very high threshold  (540,000 signatures) to initate. It will marginalize the entire recall effort, and get back to running the state.

Instead of hyper partisans saying "yeah, screw the dems, screw the unions, they all buy votes   " and "Walker eats babies and teachers and gave the Koch brothers a Boxflex yesterday  " hopefully this can be a time of mending fences and actually letting some of the policies come to fruition.

If Walker has an ounce of political self-awareness, he should be avoiding gloating or snappy sound bites. Just quietly state how the people have spoken, lets get to work TOGETHER, and actually listen to the opposition.

Worth repeating . . . .

Walker's policies have laid off public employees and saved money by putting people out of work. Wisconsin how has the worst record in the nation for job creation, all under Walker's watch and his new policies. If everything Walker is doing is all sunshine and rainbows then why are businesses leaving Wi and shedding jobs while at a rate that makes WI the worst in the nation at job creation? Anyone?

The fact that he has reduced expenses is admirable and a good thing. Specifically how the WEA insurance wasnt a good deal for the state. However his methodology and manner in which he has achieved it is beyond dickish and has motivated otherwise unmotivated Democrats in ways rarely seen before. His abrasive manner in authorative governance has directly led to mobilization of his opposition, which is extremely stupid in political terms and has led to abuse of utilizing the recall option. (Again . . . only Tossberg likes recalls for this purpose, but only against Democrats)

He had already won every battle. if he tried to do anything to mollify the opposition and listen to those voters, then this stupid circus might not have ever gone this far. Politics is about consensus and Walker is the antithesis of consensus and collaborative governance.

[bpwallace49]

tosberg34, on 26 April 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

That doesn't prove I'm for recalls for democrats only.  Fleeing the state is a dereliction of duty and in my mind is a re callable offense.

Dereliction of duty is a specific offense under United States Code Title 10,892. Article 92 and applies to all branches of the US military. A service member who is derelict has willfully refused to perform his duties (or follow a given order) or has incapacitated himself in such a way that he cannot perform his duties.

So Wisconsin legislators are now part of the US military? Interesting . . . .

[bpwallace49]

http://verdict.justi...a-fair-question

http://verdict.justi...tarian-governor

Written by the White House general counsel under Richard Nixon.

[tosberg34]

bpwallace49, on 26 April 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

So Wisconsin legislators are now part of the US military? Interesting . . . .

I gave you the description of dereliction of duty, regardless of where it's applied.  You completely and purposefully missed the point.  You do that quite often.

[tosberg34]

bpwallace49, on 26 April 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

Worth repeating . . . .

Walker's policies have laid off public employees and saved money by putting people out of work. Wisconsin how has the worst record in the nation for job creation, all under Walker's watch and his new policies. If everything Walker is doing is all sunshine and rainbows then why are businesses leaving Wi and shedding jobs while at a rate that makes WI the worst in the nation at job creation? Anyone?

The fact that he has reduced expenses is admirable and a good thing. Specifically how the WEA insurance wasnt a good deal for the state. However his methodology and manner in which he has achieved it is beyond dickish and has motivated otherwise unmotivated Democrats in ways rarely seen before. His abrasive manner in authorative governance has directly led to mobilization of his opposition, which is extremely stupid in political terms and has led to abuse of utilizing the recall option. (Again . . . only Tossberg likes recalls for this purpose, but only against Democrats)

He had already won every battle. if he tried to do anything to mollify the opposition and listen to those voters, then this stupid circus might not have ever gone this far. Politics is about consensus and Walker is the antithesis of consensus and collaborative governance.

It's still wrong no matter how many times you repeat it.

And, of course, you're lying again about me wanting recalls for dems only.  Are you trying to score points with your girlfriend bushwacked?

[gbpfan1231]

bpwallace49, on 26 April 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

Worth repeating . . . .

Walker's policies have laid off public employees and saved money by putting people out of work. Wisconsin how has the worst record in the nation for job creation, all under Walker's watch and his new policies. If everything Walker is doing is all sunshine and rainbows then why are businesses leaving Wi and shedding jobs while at a rate that makes WI the worst in the nation at job creation? Anyone?

The fact that he has reduced expenses is admirable and a good thing. Specifically how the WEA insurance wasnt a good deal for the state. However his methodology and manner in which he has achieved it is beyond dickish and has motivated otherwise unmotivated Democrats in ways rarely seen before. His abrasive manner in authorative governance has directly led to mobilization of his opposition, which is extremely stupid in political terms and has led to abuse of utilizing the recall option. (Again . . . only Tossberg likes recalls for this purpose, but only against Democrats)

He had already won every battle. if he tried to do anything to mollify the opposition and listen to those voters, then this stupid circus might not have ever gone this far. Politics is about consensus and Walker is the antithesis of consensus and collaborative governance.

Come on man let's get real here.  I don't have all of the stats (because I think they are now being hidden) but didn't WEA do a poll every year about class sizes and teacher job losses and things like that that they are now not releasing the prior yeras data because the data from this year do now show what you point out above?  Why are they hiding this data?

Layoffs have occurred and I think the most were in Milwaukee - they were given the option to use some of the Act 10 tools AFTER they already agreed to extend contracts in a rush to try and save some of these jobs but they refused.  To me that is pure evidence that it is not about the kids and jobs it is all about themselves.

I agree that he has not delivered on his jobs promise but you cannot pin that all on him - first of all if people are giving Obama any kind of pass for the mess he inherited you can then not pass judgement on Walker for jobs.  It is also very naive to not think the environment this recall has created does not have an impact on job creation - the dems running against him have basically said they will increase taxes and companies have no idea what these peole will do if they win the recall - this does not help jobs.  The dems shot down the mine in northern WI and I can guarantee a good chunk of the opposition to the mine was so that Walker can continue to get railed on for jobs.

I will also agree he is abrasive but some of that has to be done - You give him credit for uncovering the WEA scam but the only way to uncover that was to do what he did - there was no way he could have uncovered all the crap going on if he would have tried to play nice with the unions - there is no such thing.

[tosberg34]

gbpfan1231, on 26 April 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Come on man let's get real here.  I don't have all of the stats (because I think they are now being hidden) but didn't WEA do a poll every year about class sizes and teacher job losses and things like that that they are now not releasing the prior yeras data because the data from this year do now show what you point out above?  Why are they hiding this data?

Layoffs have occurred and I think the most were in Milwaukee - they were given the option to use some of the Act 10 tools AFTER they already agreed to extend contracts in a rush to try and save some of these jobs but they refused.  To me that is pure evidence that it is not about the kids and jobs it is all about themselves.

I agree that he has not delivered on his jobs promise but you cannot pin that all on him - first of all if people are giving Obama any kind of pass for the mess he inherited you can then not pass judgement on Walker for jobs.  It is also very naive to not think the environment this recall has created does not have an impact on job creation - the dems running against him have basically said they will increase taxes and companies have no idea what these peole will do if they win the recall - this does not help jobs.  The dems shot down the mine in northern WI and I can guarantee a good chunk of the opposition to the mine was so that Walker can continue to get railed on for jobs.

I will also agree he is abrasive but some of that has to be done - You give him credit for uncovering the WEA scam but the only way to uncover that was to do what he did - there was no way he could have uncovered all the crap going on if he would have tried to play nice with the unions - there is no such thing.

Worth Repeating:

Tim Nerenz said:

And Then What?


In the past few days the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel had a couple of remarkable articles on the upcoming Wisconsin recall elections – both interesting and infuriating.  

The first one reported that the public-sector unions who endorsed Democrat candidate Kathleen Falk have now suspended advertising on her behalf with just weeks to go before the primary.  

Thank you so much, WEAC and AFSME, for forcing a primary upon us that will add several millions to the $9 million it was already going to cost the taxpayers to humor you with a recall, only to pull out when it came time to spend some of your own money on it.  That’s just terrific; a sure-fire way to win over independent and undecided taxpayers by spending a boatload of their money for nothing.  Bravo.

The second was the astonishing admission of both leading candidates to unseat Governor Walker – Falk and Tom Barrett – that they have no plan to offer the voters of this state to counter the reforms enacted by the guy they want to replace prematurely.  Even the liberals at the paper found this bizarre.  

Thank you so much, Democrat Party of Wisconsin, for forcing a recall election that will cost taxpayers upwards of $20 million in a runoff between two candidates who, with nearly 18 months to come up with a better idea than Scott Walker’s reforms, can’t think of anything besides not being Scott Walker.  Isn’t the cream supposed to rise in the dairy state?

There are 3.6 million other adults here who are also not Scott Walker and who also have no earthly idea how to run the State of Wisconsin effectively.  Why not put them all on the ballot, if that’s what democracy looks like.  Just pick one at random; or maybe rotate daily, so everybody has a better chance of taking a turn.  Maybe it could be a scratch-off lottery prize and we can make some money on the deal.  

The left also endured a minor thong-twist this week over Walker’s reinstatement of merit bonuses for some state employees, although I don’t know why paying state workers a little more would cause angst among Team Public Worker.  

They say it is too costly in this era of austerity, but the bonuses will only cost taxpayers an additional $725,000 or roughly 1/30 the cost of the recall over…what was that again?  Oh, yeah, cutting state workers’ pay in the age of austerity.

Actually, it is no longer clear that the recall is about worker pay; in fact, I don’t think anyone knows anymore what this recall is supposed to be about.  

It started over benefit adjustments for public employees, but once a database of teacher salaries and benefit values was made public, sympathy for besieged public servants turned to envy.

Then it switched to collective bargaining, which sounded like a pretty good principled argument until residents of the Badger state got a good look at the behavior of the “collective” in question when they hit the capitol en masse last winter.  And putting the muscle to neutral businesses turned off a lot of fair-minded people who suddenly understood that “bargaining” has a different meaning altogether to the boys from Chicago who are calling the shots.

So the argument shifted to Walker’s cuts in education funding, which actually had a little traction going until we discovered the extent of the WEA trust insurance scam and realized how much we have been ripped off and for how long in the name of education.  Turns out your average fish-fry cheesehead couldn’t get whipped into a frenzy over cuts to money-laundering.  

Then it was just sort of, generally, um, that Walker’s Act 10 reforms, like, you know, kinda destroyed the state and stuff; until people started to see that the state was not destroyed and over $1 billion had been saved in less than a year since Act 10 was implemented over the objections of every living and breathing Democrat, who are still living and breathing despite the issuance of 100,000 concealed carry permits, thank you very much Governor Walker.  

Then it was all about jobs – the Democrats had something going on there until they voted down the mining bill and killed off the biggest opportunity for high-wage job growth to come down the pike in this state in many years.  It is quite a feat to get unions and old people from up North pissed at Democrats – kudos.

Next they tried out this pitch:  it wasn’t exactly what he did, it was how he did it.  But when people looked at their lower tax bills and those concealed carry permits they pretty much decided it didn’t matter how he did it.  And besides, having a majority of both houses of the legislature vote for a law that the governor then signs, is pretty much how he is supposed to do it.  It’s the veto by any old county judge with ink in the pen that is a process problem.  

So now about all that is left for The Left is the old standby - Walker didn’t tell us he was going to do this reform stuff before we elected him.  Forget that we didn’t buy this crock when they first whipped it on us in January of 2011 - that’s their story and they are sticking to it…for now.  

Let’s see if we got this straight: we are supposed to throw out the guy who saved the state from fiscal catastrophe because he didn’t spell out his plan to a level of specificity satisfactory to his opponent, and replace him with said opponent who has...wait for it...no plan whatsoever.

Really?  And then what?  

I guess recall that one in a year, too. Because if they won’t tell us anything at all now, then if they do anything at all once in office it will be at least equal to Walker’s transgression – i.e. not telling us ahead of time exactly what he was going to do and how.  


If that is how this is all supposed to work from now on, then we might as well just rent a Governor for a year instead of hiring one for four and then tossing him or her after one anyway.  Someone call Manpower and see what the rate would be for a temp.   

This is not getting ridiculous; it put ridiculous in the rear view mirror a long time ago.  President Obama has no plan to solve the deficit and the debt at the federal level; his Treasury Secretary admitted so under oath in a Congressional hearing.  They apparently think not-Paul-Ryan is a winning strategy.  Governor Walker’s opponents admit they have no plan to avoid deficits and debt at the state level; they apparently think not-Scott-Walker will work here, too.  

Until someone in the Democrat party brain-trust decides to make this a difficult decision and give us a plan – any plan - to consider, the recall vote is going to be easy, even if you don’t care much for Scott Walker.  Whoever runs against Walker plans to spend more, tax more, and tell us what to do, and if Walker wins he plans to spend less, tax less, and tell us what to do.

So if we are going to have a government hell-bent on telling us what to do, we might as well have the one that takes less of our money doing it.  Not exactly bumper-sticker material, but then I'm not a Republican with turf to defend or a Democrat with an axe to grind - just a libertarian with an opinion.

[bpwallace49]

gbpfan1231, on 26 April 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Come on man let's get real here.  I don't have all of the stats (because I think they are now being hidden) but didn't WEA do a poll every year about class sizes and teacher job losses and things like that that they are now not releasing the prior yeras data because the data from this year do now show what you point out above?  Why are they hiding this data?

Layoffs have occurred and I think the most were in Milwaukee - they were given the option to use some of the Act 10 tools AFTER they already agreed to extend contracts in a rush to try and save some of these jobs but they refused.  To me that is pure evidence that it is not about the kids and jobs it is all about themselves.

I agree that he has not delivered on his jobs promise but you cannot pin that all on him - first of all if people are giving Obama any kind of pass for the mess he inherited you can then not pass judgement on Walker for jobs.  It is also very naive to not think the environment this recall has created does not have an impact on job creation - the dems running against him have basically said they will increase taxes and companies have no idea what these peole will do if they win the recall - this does not help jobs.  The dems shot down the mine in northern WI and I can guarantee a good chunk of the opposition to the mine was so that Walker can continue to get railed on for jobs.

I will also agree he is abrasive but some of that has to be done - You give him credit for uncovering the WEA scam but the only way to uncover that was to do what he did - there was no way he could have uncovered all the crap going on if he would have tried to play nice with the unions - there is no such thing.

first of all . . have you EVER seen me defend unions on this site? The answer again is NO. Boy you twins are tiresome on that subject. The "all about the kids" statement you use makes you use foolish. if you want to discuss issues, then lets do so. Otherwise you degenerate into your alter ego "tossberg". If you think that teachers are supposed to work for free in some kind of altrustic community service, then what world do you live in? teachers can get into a profession because they love what they do and want tyo help children, but that doesnt mean they should not be fairly compensated for it, or have their entire profession downgraded in pay after they committed to a career because previous politicians never followed through on their promises.

As far as jobs . . . YES they can be pinned on him! if the state has the worst record in the nation for jobs over his tenure, then he absolutely is responsible for that! In fact, he is contributing to that by axing jobs left and right. if he wants the credit, then he also gets the responsibility. He promised 250,000 growth in jobs, and is the only state to still be a net loss in jobs.

The mine was a couple hundred jobs. The state is down a net 23,000. The mine isnt the be all end all.

This comes back full circle. You are of the opinion that you cannot work with the opposition, when nothing is further from the truth. Walker held the upper hand, and instead of being magnaminous and reaching out to mitigate the public fallout, he pushed ahead with a "eff you" strategy that gave birth to the recall nonsense. If he had an ounce of common sense and mended bridges while STILL getting what he wanted, then he would have marginalized the opposition and possibly not gotten enough signatures for recall. His actions have HELPED the recall movement, which you and I agree is silly for both sides. he is fanning the flames instead of dousing them. Politics is the art of consensus, not senseless partisanship and flaunting power. A good example is that Walker broke the union and got every single financial concession. he then went even further, started flaunting power and did the yearly renewal and opt-in that doesnt save a penny, but helps him politically. That was unneccesary, but he did it anyway. Or to use your parlance "if it was all about saving money for the children (or taxpayers) then why did he do it? That wasnt about saving money!"

if he reached out publically and marginalized the opposition, then I dont think a recall would get enough traction. He made his own bed in this by being a dick, and now the clusterf*ck that is Wisconsin politics over the last few years chugs on. . . . .

[bpwallace49]

tosberg34, on 26 April 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

Worth Repeating:

No . . .  no it isnt at all. But it reinforces your echo chamber of idiocy, so forge ahead!