delfamdelfam Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Leshoure, Williams, maybe Ingram is next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zooty Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) Leshoure, Williams, maybe Ingram is next? wtf is wrong with you? Edited August 20, 2011 by Zooty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 "The problem with quotes found on the Internet [/b]is that it is nearly impossible to verify the source." - Abraham Lincoln Abe was really ahead of his time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby's Hubby Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Just throw it to Fitz every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawofmurphy Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Ugh. I hate everything about this. Loved his talent... Is there any reason for me to draft him on my dynasty team and stash him on IR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Ugh. I hate everything about this. Loved his talent... Is there any reason for me to draft him on my dynasty team and stash him on IR? No. AZ is doomed at RB. That's not a joke, it's a quantifiable fact. People act like Williams was finally going to be the answer. Why? Because he looked good in college? He was about as promising as any number of other RBs who have not been able to amount to squat. Thomas Jones was a freaking beast in college and has ended up with a solid NFL career. Well, with the exception of his years in AZ. And AZ not being able to run the ball has transcended coaching staffs, times when they were good. Times when they sucked. It doesn't matter. Now, I'd be willing to overlook this and take the kid very, very late (but late enough that I would likely not get him) but he'd have to be healthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Now I have to figure out if I want to give him a contract & then IR him or promote another player who isn't ready to fit him on my taxi squad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 No. AZ is doomed at RB. That's not a joke, it's a quantifiable fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) Name the last time AZ had a statistically relevant RB. I'll save you the trouble. It was Edge. They brought in one of the premier RBs in the league. And before you say he was old and spent, he was under the magical 30 years old threshold and was fresh off a season where he had 1800 total yds and 14 TDs. Averaging better than 4 yds per carry. In AZ? About 500 total yds less, 6 TDs, and 3.4 yds per carry. The next year he did marginally better, but that was it. And that was the pinnacle of the AZ rushing attack for about the last 15+ years. Those were the glory years, when Edge put up decent but hardly stellar numbers. ETA: Sorry, I forgot about Adrian Murrell in '98 . He was the other AZ back who broke 1000 yds in the last 15 years. Just barely mind you but had some nice TD #. Good enough that he would have ranked 16th last year, which is tied with Edge's 2nd year there as the highest an AZ RB's would have ranked them compared to the 2010 class of RBs since 1992 (which is as far back as the site I looked at went). In nearly 20 years, the best they've managed to pull off is making a guy a solid RB2. Perhaps there are other teams with as poor a track record, but that one's pretty bad. Edited August 20, 2011 by detlef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Name the last time AZ had a statistically relevant RB. I'll save you the trouble. It was Edge. They brought in one of the premier RBs in the league. And before you say he was old and spent, he was under the magical 30 years old threshold and was fresh off a season where he had 1800 total yds and 14 TDs. Averaging better than 4 yds per carry. In AZ? About 500 total yds less, 6 TDs, and 3.4 yds per carry. The next year he did marginally better, but that was it. And that was the pinnacle of the AZ rushing attack for about the last 15+ years. Those were the glory years, when Edge put up decent but hardly stellar numbers. You spewing quantifiable facts is a complete joke. Id say Edge in 06 and 07, putting up 1100 and 1222 yards in back to back seasons make him a relevant RB. And that was at the twilight of his career, after a ton of milage in Indy. Tim Hightower avged 4.8 yard a carry last year and had 736 yards on 153 carries. Id say he was relevant. This is one of the cheapest franchises in any sport and only recently have they stepped up to pay a select few of their players, and only to put butts in seats. Arizona is not cursed at the RB position. This is a flawed franchise, that has had 1 glory year since returning to Arizona and that was with an aging Kurt Warner turning back the clock. I chalk Arizonas woes to poor drafting, a cheap owner that lets his talented players go via trade or FA because he doesnt want to pay them. And they dont develop OL and Running backs. Beanie Wells was a lazy player, and that is why he lasted to the end of the 1st round. Ryan Williams could come back next year and rush for 1000 yards and this argument is moot. Hell its moot anyway. I cant believe I just spent 10 minutes arguing with someone who loves to argue just for the sake of arguing. When just 5 years ago, Arizona had back to back 1000 yard rushers and he is spewing when in the last 15 years has Arizona had a relevant RB. Geez, what an idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) You spewing quantifiable facts is a complete joke. Id say Edge in 06 and 07, putting up 1100 and 1222 yards in back to back seasons make him a relevant RB. And that was at the twilight of his career, after a ton of milage in Indy. Tim Hightower avged 4.8 yard a carry last year and had 736 yards on 153 carries. Id say he was relevant. This is one of the cheapest franchises in any sport and only recently have they stepped up to pay a select few of their players, and only to put butts in seats. Arizona is not cursed at the RB position. This is a flawed franchise, that has had 1 glory year since returning to Arizona and that was with an aging Kurt Warner turning back the clock. I chalk Arizonas woes to poor drafting, a cheap owner that lets his talented players go via trade or FA because he doesnt want to pay them. And they dont develop OL and Running backs. Beanie Wells was a lazy player, and that is why he lasted to the end of the 1st round. Ryan Williams could come back next year and rush for 1000 yards and this argument is moot. Hell its moot anyway. I cant believe I just spent 10 minutes arguing with someone who loves to argue just for the sake of arguing. When just 5 years ago, Arizona had back to back 1000 yard rushers and he is spewing when in the last 15 years has Arizona had a relevant RB. Geez, what an idiot. First off, again, Edge's best year there would have ranked him 16th this last year. That's it. That's the best they've done. Secondly, what is the point of bringing up all the ways they're a crappy franchise. Great, so those are the reasons why they never have good RBs. OK, so? Thanks for giving the reasons that contribute to them never having good RBs. Do you honestly think I'm implying that there's some magical curse? No, I'm just saying that they always suck at RB. And it should be noted that they have certainly had FF relevant WRs and QBs over that time. Speaking in fantasy terms, which, btw, I was when I made the statement that spawned our mini-debate. When do you think the last time someone was happy they drafted an AZ RB? Not Edge's first year. His ADP was #7 over all and he finished outside the top 15 of RBs. It was likely the next season when he rewarded those who took him as the 17th RB off the board with stats that seem as if they would rank him, well, around 16th. (Again, I can't find final FF standings for previous years (only ADP), so I'm basing that on this last year's stats. Regardless, forgive me if I don't accept your notion that Williams might come back and run for 1000 yards as an example of AZ not being doomed to suck at RB. Hell, Detroit could win the next 5 Super Bowls and really put this whole loser franchise stigma to bed as well. If you truly want to make a wager of some sort about AZ running backs doing well. I will gladly take it and renew it every year until they actually manage to prove me wrong often enough. Edited August 20, 2011 by detlef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackass Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Name the last time AZ had a statistically relevant RB. I'll save you the trouble. It was Edge. They brought in one of the premier RBs in the league. And before you say he was old and spent, he was under the magical 30 years old threshold and was fresh off a season where he had 1800 total yds and 14 TDs. Averaging better than 4 yds per carry. In AZ? About 500 total yds less, 6 TDs, and 3.4 yds per carry. The next year he did marginally better, but that was it. And that was the pinnacle of the AZ rushing attack for about the last 15+ years. Those were the glory years, when Edge put up decent but hardly stellar numbers. ETA: Sorry, I forgot about Adrian Murrell in '98 . He was the other AZ back who broke 1000 yds in the last 15 years. Just barely mind you but had some nice TD #. Good enough that he would have ranked 16th last year, which is tied with Edge's 2nd year there as the highest an AZ RB's would have ranked them compared to the 2010 class of RBs since 1992 (which is as far back as the site I looked at went). In nearly 20 years, the best they've managed to pull off is making a guy a solid RB2. Perhaps there are other teams with as poor a track record, but that one's pretty bad. your points are cumulatively 1% relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Emmitt Smith was a pretty good value his 2nd yr in Arizona (937 yds, 9 tds rushing as a late-round flyer after looking like a total washout the previous year). I can certainly say I'm NOT happy with having Beanie Wells in a dynasty league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 your points are cumulatively 1% relevant. Do tell. Surely we can't say that the past is the past and now that they've got a better coach, things will turn around. Right? Because this guy has been in place now for a few years and they haven't exactly cracked the RB code, have they? So, we have history, and we have the reasons Brent gave for why I'm right. That the franchise is just a joke in general. That's good enough for me. Mind you, when you and I were debating about relative parity between MLB and the NFL, and I showed data that there have been virtually the same amount of consistently bad teams and good teams in each league and that there have been more different teams who have won it all over the last 10 or so years, you countered that argument by saying what you thought would happen over the next 10 years. So, maybe you're not the one who should be giving lessons on relevant points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Emmitt Smith was a pretty good value his 2nd yr in Arizona (937 yds, 9 tds rushing as a late-round flyer after looking like a total washout the previous year). I can certainly say I'm NOT happy with having Beanie Wells in a dynasty league. Fair enough. When you expect nothing, you might be pleasantly surprised. That still puts him barely inside the top 20 in pts per game this last year. Again, I don't have final standings for 2004. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 You spewing quantifiable facts is a complete joke. Id say Edge in 06 and 07, putting up 1100 and 1222 yards in back to back seasons make him a relevant RB. And that was at the twilight of his career, after a ton of milage in Indy. Tim Hightower avged 4.8 yard a carry last year and had 736 yards on 153 carries. Id say he was relevant. This is one of the cheapest franchises in any sport and only recently have they stepped up to pay a select few of their players, and only to put butts in seats. Arizona is not cursed at the RB position. This is a flawed franchise, that has had 1 glory year since returning to Arizona and that was with an aging Kurt Warner turning back the clock. I chalk Arizonas woes to poor drafting, a cheap owner that lets his talented players go via trade or FA because he doesnt want to pay them. And they dont develop OL and Running backs. Beanie Wells was a lazy player, and that is why he lasted to the end of the 1st round. Ryan Williams could come back next year and rush for 1000 yards and this argument is moot. Hell its moot anyway. I cant believe I just spent 10 minutes arguing with someone who loves to argue just for the sake of arguing. When just 5 years ago, Arizona had back to back 1000 yard rushers and he is spewing when in the last 15 years has Arizona had a relevant RB. Geez, what an idiot. Detlef has gone on record numerous times about Arizona RB's and brings up valid and interesting points. None of which are a magical John Madden curse. You won't win this one...trust me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackass Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Do tell. Surely we can't say that the past is the past and now that they've got a better coach, things will turn around. Right? Because this guy has been in place now for a few years and they haven't exactly cracked the RB code, have they? So, we have history, and we have the reasons Brent gave for why I'm right. That the franchise is just a joke in general. That's good enough for me. Mind you, when you and I were debating about relative parity between MLB and the NFL, and I showed data that there have been virtually the same amount of consistently bad teams and good teams in each league and that there have been more different teams who have won it all over the last 10 or so years, you countered that argument by saying what you thought would happen over the next 10 years. So, maybe you're not the one who should be giving lessons on relevant points. oh lord, you're bringing up an argument from a year ago back into this. seriously? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Ernie McCracken Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) I may be wrong (although I know I'm not) but I recall Thomas Jones getting off to a sputtering start in his tenure with the Cardinals, and since he left town he's gone on to have a pretty solid career http://www.nfl.com/player/thomasjones/2504252/careerstats Edited August 20, 2011 by Big Ernie McCracken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) oh lord, you're bringing up an argument from a year ago back into this. seriously? Sure, as an "oh by the way" after I remade my main point. But the point remains that you seem to have an aversion to actual data. You did so in that argument and you seem to now. That seems relevant if you're actually going to comment on the relevancy of someone's argument. Do you actually have something that disputes my assertion? Assuming of course that we're all adults and aren't pretending that I implied some magical curse. Or you going to counter my argument like you did the last time we got into it by using an example that you think is going to happen but hasn't actually happened yet. ETA: Do you want more meaningless stats? Here's how AZ has ranked in rushing offense as far back as ESPN has the data. 15, 29, 22, 32, 30, 29, 32, 28, 32. Wow, and that includes the glory years of Edge. Those years they finished 30 and 29, which means he got those decent but hardly great numbers because they were just feeding him the rock. Hey, but they always have 2002, where they skyrocketed up to better than about half the teams in the league. Nice high water mark. Edited August 20, 2011 by detlef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorcher Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 So how far up does this move Beanie Wells now? about 2 feet before the line of scrimmage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 about 2 feet before the line of scrimmage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 your points are cumulatively 1% relevant. Yeah, but he does suck people in with his inane crap - notably me. I think I'll refrain this time, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTSuper7 Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) People can bash Beanie all they want for failing to do anything with his chances thus far in his career, but I like him now as RB3 with upside. Even with this news, Beanie's reputation is bound to have people looking the other way into the 5th and 6th rounds. But when I look at Arizona, I see a competent QB in Kolb (we'll see just how competent, but Kolb has to be better than the crap there last year), a decent though unspectacular offensive line, and, most importantly, not a single other guy on the roster that will likely threaten him with the majority of RB touches. Will he get hurt? Maybe. But this situation screams opportunity for Wells, and I like the idea of having a guy who might have no choice but to carry the load, especially at this price tag he's likely to have. Edited August 20, 2011 by MTSuper7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackass Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Sure, as an "oh by the way" after I remade my main point. But the point remains that you seem to have an aversion to actual data. You did so in that argument and you seem to now. That seems relevant if you're actually going to comment on the relevancy of someone's argument. Do you actually have something that disputes my assertion? Assuming of course that we're all adults and aren't pretending that I implied some magical curse. Or you going to counter my argument like you did the last time we got into it by using an example that you think is going to happen but hasn't actually happened yet. ETA: Do you want more meaningless stats? Here's how AZ has ranked in rushing offense as far back as ESPN has the data. 15, 29, 22, 32, 30, 29, 32, 28, 32. Wow, and that includes the glory years of Edge. Those years they finished 30 and 29, which means he got those decent but hardly great numbers because they were just feeding him the rock. Hey, but they always have 2002, where they skyrocketed up to better than about half the teams in the league. Nice high water mark. I must've really owned you in that last argument for you to be so bothered by it that you're still bringing it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Detlef has gone on record numerous times about Arizona RB's and brings up valid and interesting points. None of which are a magical John Madden curse. You won't win this one...trust me. Detlef could argue with God over the color of the sky, and he will still think he won the argument. Dude is as clueless as Beavis and Butthead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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