MikesVikes Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 I think people read WAY to much into list such as a top 200. They are merely suggestions based upon previous year’s numbers. It doesn't take into account what teams they play against this year, what position they might be in (moved from flank to slot). Blockers added/removed etc. You need to take what the list provides you and then add in the variables yourself to come up with a rational opinion of how YOU think the player will perform in the current year. This is the correct solution. Even if it could be done, you'd have to wonder why it should be done at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikesVikes Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Should the top 200 list account for Tds over 40 yards and/or over 50 yards, fumbles lost, return yards included or not included, .5 PPr, 1.0 PPR, 1.5 PPR, length of FGs, and a thousand different scenarios? Or should we just use it as a guide in the way that it's intended? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) You keep assuming that every scoring system is like yours, i.e. QB heavy. We are? No, what we're arguing is that top 200 should take into account more than just scoring to be at all accurate, and your scoring system alone (no matter what it is) is usually not enough to make a determination... It would require an extremely complex formula, and absolutely have to take into account things like lineup requirements... Obviously you've played FF long enough to know that there's a big difference in RB value between a non-PPR/flex where you can start 3 and a PPR with 1 RB and 3 required WRs. Scoring alone cannot determine what's the best move in those entirely different lineups to fill. Same would go for a 2QB league or QB flex, which raises QB value. These are things that can change value for you, but you can't expect the Huddle to be able to calculate for you. You remember that huddle perfect scoring article that analyzed scoring systems and attempted to devise scoring which equalized value across the QB, RB, WR, and TE positions? That's all a customized top 200 is minus the graphs and using huddle preseason projections rather than the previous season's stats. It tells you which positions score the most points in your scoring system, not necessarily who to draft first. So what? You could create an excel spreadsheet with a formula to calculate fantasy points, and then enter in the projections that way to see the leaders, but that doesn't tell us much about value without digging deeper... Say for example, that 18 of the top 20 scorers are QBs... They'd be at the top of the rankings, yet because so many of them are high scorers might actually be devalued in a start 1 QB league, if there's a lack of scoring difference between the top and bottom at that position, with a small number of required starters vs. the comparable pool to pick from. In that case, an elite QB could score the most, but be worth less if there are larger gaps in RB and WR scoring, in addition to scarcity or more required in your lineup. You have to do analysis like BC's "worst starter" method to tell you the things that a "top" list just can't tell you. What I'm interested in is looking at scarcity/requirements compared to supply along with gaps/tiers of scoring within the position,(i.e. the things that a top 200 ranking can't tell you, but tiered positional rankings and cheat-sheets can help with). These factors are what determines player values, not necessarily points scored... So again, what is the point in simply showing who the highest scorers are, if it tells me very little about what that means for my particular league? Give me lineup requirements and scoring differential to determine where the best value is over the "highest scorers" any day .... If you can figure out a formula that can take all of those things into account, then by all means, but absent those factors a customized top 200 would destined to be flawed. Edited August 23, 2011 by delusions of granduer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Should the top 200 list account for Tds over 40 yards and/or over 50 yards, fumbles lost, return yards included or not included, .5 PPr, 1.0 PPR, 1.5 PPR, length of FGs, and a thousand different scenarios? Or should we just use it as a guide in the way that it's intended? Just in case anyone has my stance confused, I completely agree with this. Mind you, I think it would be fun to take a stab at actually devising something that was more customizable. However, like I said, I make my own for each league and recognize the Huddle 200 for what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 We are? No, what we're arguing is that top 200 should take into account more than just scoring to be at all accurate, and your scoring system alone (no matter what it is) is usually not enough to make a determination... It would require an extremely complex formula, and absolutely have to take into account things like lineup requirements... Obviously you've played FF long enough to know that there's a big difference in RB value between a non-PPR/flex where you can start 3 and a PPR with 1 RB and 3 required WRs. Scoring alone cannot determine what's the best move in those entirely different lineups to fill. Same would go for a 2QB league or QB flex, which raises QB value. These are things that can change value for you, but you can't expect the Huddle to be able to calculate for you. So what? You could create an excel spreadsheet with a formula to calculate fantasy points, and then enter in the projections that way to see the leaders, but that doesn't tell us much about value without digging deeper... Say for example, that 18 of the top 20 scorers are QBs... They'd be at the top of the rankings, yet because so many of them are high scorers might actually be devalued in a start 1 QB league, if there's a lack of scoring difference between the top and bottom at that position, with a small number of required starters vs. the comparable pool to pick from. In that case, an elite QB could score the most, but be worth less if there are larger gaps in RB and WR scoring, in addition to scarcity or more required in your lineup. You have to do analysis like BC's "worst starter" method to tell you the things that a "top" list just can't tell you. What I'm interested in is looking at scarcity/requirements compared to supply along with gaps/tiers of scoring within the position,(i.e. the things that a top 200 ranking can't tell you, but tiered positional rankings and cheat-sheets can help with). These factors are what determines player values, not necessarily points scored... So again, what is the point in simply showing who the highest scorers are, if it tells me very little about what that means for my particular league? Give me lineup requirements and scoring differential to determine where the best value is over the "highest scorers" any day .... If you can figure out a formula that can take all of those things into account, then by all means, but absent those factors a customized top 200 would destined to be flawed. This. "My" league is about as QB heavy as nearly every league out there and one of the biggest misconceptions is that changing the scoring is the most important step in changing the relative value of positions. After all, if that was true, why do so many savvy FF players wait on QBs despite the fact that they dominate the overall top 20 in the vast majority of leagues? Further GS, if the Huddle 200 reflects the "perfect scoring system" that was discussed here, why is it still RB heavy, then WRs, Then QBs, and then TEs finally make their presence in the 40s but are mostly scattered around the 70s, 80s, and beyond. No, I'd wager the Huddle 200 is, as it should be, a valuation of all the players, assuming the most common scoring, roster requirements, and league size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnoldg3 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 It would be helpful if the top 200 rankings mentioned what lineup rules were used. Even magazines typically do this. This way at least you can modify the list to your own leagues rules. Does The Huddle use 2 running backs and 2 wide receivers, or are they using 3 receivers? Do they figure a flex position? It would be nice to know. Many people answer by saying, use your own judgement. When I pay for the services of a site like this, I think certain minimum expectations are reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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