Kill Orton Now

[detlef]

It's useless, like most Tebow threads. Some people are convinced he's a franchise QB, and there are just as many convinced he's a complete flop. A lot of times those judgments are made based upon bias that has nothing to do with football.

 

There is no way anyone can make a valid evaulation of this kid as a starting QB until he gets a chance to start in regular season games. I do know this kid has excelled at every other level he has played at despite having naysayers who stated assuredly that he couldn't succeed, and he has shown some very real NFL capability with the few chances he's been given on the field.

 

I guess some would rather watch Orton lead this team through another dismal season.

Now you're just making things up. I don't know what it was like in High School, but he was being touted as Urban Mayer's golden child from the time he was a Freshman. So, you're going to need to back away from the keyboard if you're going to go with, "People have been doubting him since day one" bit.

 

Also, while it makes it easier for you to make a point, don't pretend that those of us who aren't clamoring for Tebow to see the field are convinced he'll be a flop. Speaking for myself, at least, I'm just not going to pretend I know better than the coaches who are hired to evaluate these sorts of things. So, if the guy who's paycheck depends on putting out a winner thinks that Orton can do that for him, well, who am I to say otherwise.

 

If history has shown us anything, it's that you never know who may be the next great QB. Yet, dozens and dozens don't get the chance to prove they may be it unless they show it in practice. In every case but the very few situations where a team picks a guy specifically to be their franchise and just figures the future is now, all those guys, who may be great, aren't given a shot "just in case". And I, along with Elway and Fox, it would seem, feel that Tebow is in that class. Not drafted by this administration to be their franchise, and thus, in the pool of guys who's going to have to show it in practice if they want a chance on the field.

[lkirc]

Judging by this thread, it seems the lower the member number, the higher the pr*ck quotient.

 

EDIT: Actually, some of you seem all right. But this member # thing is ridiculous.

 

I must be a bastage! LMAO

 

I don't even know how I got such a low number. I guess someone recognized my brilliance early.

[lkirc]

actually, I meant that there was a lot of potential for humor and nonsense, but if y'all wanna argue about which suckass QB gets to lead our suckass Broncos, well, it'll pass the time until we pick top 5 again

 

Make sure you call Matt Millen. He knows how to utilize top ten draft picks.

[Caveman_Nick]

I said "most" QBs and I do believe that is true. Your very statement basically confirms what I said. "Many first round QBs get handed the reigns". So, according to you, not even all of the 1st rounders do, which, when coupled with the number of QBs who get taken after the 1st and only get a sniff if their team is out of options, means that most do not.

 

So, considering that, according to most GMs, Tebow should not have been a 1st rounder, it seems odd to me that anyone should assume he should be given a shot unless he truly earns it.

 

Virtually every QB who has just been flat-out, handed the job was a top 10 pick.

 

In this context I understand your meaning a little better. In the spirit of that context, I would throw out there that I still think you are overstating that issue with respect to first round QB choices.

[Bronco Billy]

actually, I meant that there was a lot of potential for humor and nonsense, but if y'all wanna argue about which suckass QB gets to lead our suckass Broncos, well, it'll pass the time until we pick top 5 again

 

Better the suckass we don't know yet than the suckass we're sure about.

[Bronco Billy]

You are simply unreal at twisting other people's opinions, but keep on believing that Tebow deserves a shot, even if he's far from ready... Be careful what you wish for...

 

You are simply unreal at thinking you're important enough that every comment is aimed at you.

[detlef]

In this context I understand your meaning a little better. In the spirit of that context, I would throw out there that I still think you are overstating that issue with respect to first round QB choices.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

 

My point, is simply that there are plenty of QBs, most in fact, who don't get the benefit of the doubt. That, you don't hear the argument that you may as well give them a shot since you don't know for sure if they're bad or not. Most only get a chance to show they've got it because they earn the spot in practice or the starter goes down. The few that get anointed in the manner many seem to be clamoring for with Tebow, that is, given the starting job over a guy who may be a better QB right now, are usually drafted very high. Not only was Tebow not drafted high enough to fit that category (guys in the late first, early 2nd, typically have to tote a clipboard for a while and are only "handed" the job once they actually earn it), many feel he was drafted too high as it was.

 

It seems as if Bronco saw enough in Tebow's 3 games to think he's earned the starting job. Fox and Elway, of course, also had privy to that game tape and have decided that those three games, along with whatever they've seen in practice, was not enough. That the team is in better hands with Orton.

Edited September 19, 2011 by detlef

[troublez]

But let's not pretend that Tebow is being held back by an inferior QB. Orton didn't get the job because he's just that good (we all remember when Orton was as good as gone), he got the job because Tebow's fallen flat on his face since training camp started, and showed that he's clearly not even close to being ready.

 

This.

+1

[delusions of grandeur]

You are simply unreal at thinking you're important enough that every comment is aimed at you.

Did I say it was aimed at me? I could really care less who's under center for the Broncos, but I can assure you the Tebow-doubters are not saying they're just fine and dandy with Orton. That's mischaracterizing their position, which seems to be a strength of yours.

[Bronco Billy]

Did I say it was aimed at me? I could really care less who's under center for the Broncos, but I can assure you the Tebow-doubters are not saying they're just fine and dandy with Orton. That's mischaracterizing their position, which seems to be a strength of yours.

 

You do understand the meaning of the word "rather", correct? Unless you are making the argument that Quinn should start.

 

Jeebsus.

[NAUgrad]

It seems that Orton had a very good preseason both in practice and during games. It looked like he was ready to take a big step forward. It also looked like he won the started job hands down during the preseason. That seems apparent and easily understood. What doesn't make sense is that it appears that Orton has taken a step back from last year so far this season. Yes, they are 1-1 so I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Orton just yet, but he has not impressed me at all so far this season. If they keep winning then there is no reason to make a change. But if they start losing, it makes sense to me to give Tebow a shot. I was one that was impressed with his play at the end of last year.

[MikesVikes]

Yea, Orton gives them the best chance to win.

 

Or maybe they should start Tebow now so they can get an ACTUAL, BONA FIDE, LEGITIMATE quarterback of the future in next year's draft.

[Bronco Billy]

Yea, Orton gives them the best chance to win.

 

Or maybe they should start Tebow now so they can get an ACTUAL, BONA FIDE, LEGITIMATE quarterback of the future in next year's draft.

 

If that's the outcome, that's fine with me. If Tebow sucks as bad as some here seem to think, DEN ought to be in line to rectify that mistake in next year's draft.

[Bronco Billy]

That's quite a dream. Any chance that we can suck as much as MN?

 

 

No chance. Why do you think the prevailing wind is to the northeast in Denver?

[CowboysDiehard]

As a non-Bronco fan living in 'enemy' territory, I don't know which is worse....The Tebow Derangement Syndrome or the Orton Derangement Syndrome.

 

Calling for Orton's death, however, does seem a little drastic. Dan Caplis (non-sports radio guy out here who suffers a severe case of TDS--as in severe MAN CRUSH on Tebow) doesn't even take it that far!

Edited September 19, 2011 by CowboysDiehard

[Turf Smurf]

what a stupid thread. You're pissed cuz Orton played well, not cuz he played poorly. And now it's even harder for your man-crush Tebow to get in as QB. I bet when he ran out on the field, you got hard, then realized he was going in at WR as nothing more than a decoy.

 

 

thread failure.

Ah, it's Bush's fault...sorry barock, I forgot...

[Turf Smurf]

How ridiculous that everyone is drinking the Kool-Aid about Tim Tebow. He's not even outplaying the back-up?!! How is it that you guys are calling for Orton's head, when he's actually kept you in games and done pretty decently! Why don't you call for Moreno and his lame hamstring? Or the lack of any decent defense? If you guys had any clue about football, you wouldn't be booing the best chance at any wins this season. I may root for a lame team like the 49ers, but at least I recognize the real reasons behind their mediocrity. Tim Tebow is NOT READY!!!

Word! I hate pinheads that start threads like this!

[Turf Smurf]

I think Decker is quite an option for Denver.

+1 +++

[Turf Smurf]

Yes I do. Mind you, I was on record as saying before that I could understand just throwing Tebow out there to know whether or not he's got the goods or that they should just turn the page.

 

However, I think I've changed my tune. Mostly because that is not a luxury afforded to most QBs in this league. If you can't win the job, you don't win the job. And, had McDaniel not reached for Tebow, nobody would give two poops about whether or not they should give him a chance that he apparently has not earned. How many 2nd or 3rd round QBs have you seen be able to force this sort of decision?

 

I mean, you really have to look at this from coach Fox's perspective. He didn't draft Tebow and apparently has not seen enough from him to feel that he deserves to start. In addition, he may have been among the majority of guys in the NFL who would not have taken Tebow where Denver did. So, now we're asking a guy who's been hired to win games to bench the guy who, through his evaluation, is the best QB on the roster, just in case a guy who someone else, but not he, thought was worthy of a 1st round pick, may be better?

 

Seems like a lot to ask. And, again, how many times have we actually seen this? At least by a 1-1 team. If they're 2-8? Sure, why not.

Character is underrated throughout most of the world.

[Turf Smurf]

Here's what I am seeing, and why I have my opinion that Tebow ought to be playing right now:

 

1) The excuse that Orton gives DEN the best chance to win is bull#### and anyone with half a brain in Denver knows it. That there is so much whining by some in DEN over the booing and Tebow chants is what shows a real lack of acumen - their derision is a response to the management's tacit contention that Broncos fans are morans and will believe everything they are told. Orton is 5-18 over his last 23 starts and 2-9 over his last 11 starts. His well documented substandard numbers on third downs, in the 4th quarter, and in the red zone aren't getting any better. If anything, they are getting worse. Plus, the guy turns the ball over at extraordinarily inopportune times - like at the end of the 3rd quarter yesterday or last week in the 4th quarter when he simply dropped the ball without being touched. Orton's reputation as a between-the-20s QB is well deserved. To think anyone actually believes that Orton gives DEN any edge for getting a W is insulting, and thus the fans simply pay the insult back during games.

 

2) The rest of the league must see what Tebow supporting Broncos fans do, and what Bronco management doesn't. Despite some teams being decidedly shorthanded at QB, not one team would ante up a 2012 3rd rounder for Orton, especially given his salary and contract status. And DEN thinks so much of their starting QB that they would have sent him packing for a 3rd rounder - so don't give us the best-chance-to-win BS please.

 

3) Orton is a UFA next season, and given his decided lack of ability to lead the team to Ws - despite the DEN management's contention and the facts of what his record as a starter is - and be anything other than a game manager, DEN is not going to pay what Orton thinks he is worth (in excess of $8M per year at least) to keep him around, especially since rookie salaries are under control. Orton is a classic lame duck QB. That being said, and seeing that while this team is getting better in some areas, that is is also startling weak in some others, there is no reason to allow an unknown talent like Tebow sitting on the bench and allowing Orton to get all the game reps. DEN is going to lose more games than it wins this year. That is a virtual fact. Why commit to a lame duck QB whose history and ability are very well documented and well known when fans can get a chance to see whether Tebow can learn on the job and be a future starter for this team, or if not then answer the questions about him conclusively and move on by taking a QB in the first half of the draft next year? Barring injuries, there will be at least 3 potential franchise QBs in the 2012 draft. This team needs to see whether Tebow can play QB at the NFL level or not before that draft occurs, and his sitting on the bench answers no questions.

 

4) DEN is going to be a losing team this year. But Tebow at least generates a ton of interest, both from his supporters and his detractors. That sells tickets. Tebow isn't without any skills. He showed some very nice touch and the ability to drop the ball in a bucket from 20+ yards on several occassions, has thrown a few money long passes, and his running ability adds a dimension that Orton clearly does not have (and helps tremendously with a very weak interior O-line). I was a Tebow skeptic until I saw him in game action last season, and saw some very real positives there. That doesn't mean I think Tebow is a surefire franchise QB, it means I think he needs some opportunity to see whether he can grow. The chances he got in this year's preseason were a very poor joke - and Brady f'n Quinn was taking reps from him. Really? C'mon! If anyone in management thinks Quinn is worthy of even being a 2nd stringer in the NFL, they are showing nothing other than that they are dunces and need to be sent packing in favor of hiring some people with real football intelligence. Talk about history - Quinn has it alright. Tebow has also shown that he is nails in the red zone when he has gotten the opportunity - an 80% regular season TD success rate. Is Tebow going to make mistakes? Sure, but at least they'll be exciting and unpredictable mistakes - unlike Orton's very predictable inability in the clutch.

 

I will say one thing - if you are going to treat the fans as completely stupid, piss down their backs and telling them it's raining like the company line is right now, and continue on this path, DEN is going to lose all the goodwill it earned by hiring Fox and Elway, and then some. And they are inviting a serious QB controversy to start next season, which the team definitely does not need. Potentially even worse, they are letting Tebow rot. If they do that and eventually let him go, and then he shows up somewhere else in the league and succeeds when someone decides to give him a chance and groom him, there will be a lynch mob at Broncos' offices.

My older brother speaks more weller better then me.

[Turf Smurf]

Judging by this thread, it seems the lower the member number, the higher the pr*ck quotient.

 

EDIT: Actually, some of you seem all right. But this member # thing is ridiculous.

It never fails to stir the foo's up!

[Ditkaless Wonders]

The best thing for the long term health of this franchise would have been to lose Sunday.

 

The Broncos have no hope this year, none. They should be in full on rebuilding mode with a full on youth movement. Any piece they have who will not clearly be with them in two years should be on the trading block. Any piece that clearly will not be with them in two years should not be holding back a player who might develope into a player who can be with them in two years.

 

The following players should be on the trading block to teams with hopes, whether real or imagined:

 

Bailey

Dawkins

Haggan

McGahee

Moreno

Orton

Hochstien

Paxton

 

These players may have value for contenders. Injuries are already taking their toll in the league. I imagine that Dallas might see some value in Bailey, the Packers in Dawkins. The Giants might see some value in Haggan. The Bears need any warm body on their O-line right now, and who can say on the others.

 

The Broncos need to determine what they have in Tebow. Maybe the kid is a gamer who just happens to throw a real ugly ball. Bobby Lane threw an ugly ball and so did Sonny Jurgenson. Regardless, they need to find out what the kid has. They should start him out being inserted only with scripted packages, 15 well rehearsed plays. They need to nurture the kid and not blow him out to confidence shattering overexposure. They need to see if he can actually run those plays or whether he will break from the script (the game plan) and free lance as he has, IMO, far too strong a tendancy to do. The kid is worse than a young Vick for breaking from his reads and trying to make something happen with his feet. He needs to run the actual offense. The players around him need to know what he is doing. The coaches need to be able to run a game plan, not a Tebowplan.

 

If Orton doesn't like grooming Tebow too bad. Orton is clearly gone next year, trade him sooner if possible. If that happens Quinn can run the offense while Tebow is being slowly inserted with well rehearsed packages. It is not as if the Broncos will be appreciable worse off with Quinn rather than Orton. Hell, the experience might even help Quinn to a career as a decent backup with experience.

 

After a few weeks see if Tebow can't not only handle a new 15 page script, but maybe run a few more plays from a past script. Gradually increas his load, but in a controled and nurturing way. By week 12 or so have the kid run first string the entire game for the rest of the season. They need to get some film on the guy. They need to nurture him and find out whether he has a future or not.

 

Frankly I think Tebow is sort of a stupid, aw shucks, gung ho gomer. He will work hard, but i have my doubts that he will learn the reads needed for a successful pro career. Mechanics are over rated for Q.B.'s Football intelligence is everything, that and the ability to answer the bell week after week.

 

This team needs to be in full on rebuild mode.

[detlef]

Character is underrated throughout most of the world.

Um, this is the NFL. Good guys don't necc finish first and, for that matter, from everything I've heard in Denver, Orton's not such a bad guy either.

 

On to actual legit arguments, like those made by D. Wonders:

 

One could also argue that the worst thing that happened to the Broncos recently is that Tebow managed to put together a comeback against one of the worst secondaries in years, thus making the fan-base giddy about their "gamer" QB. But I get your point.

 

None the less, it comes back to Fox being a first year coach and that it may not be fair to expect him to tank this season for the sake of what may or may not be better for the long term. Crazy things happen in football and I can't remember any team in recent history who purged their roster and threw in the towel this early into the season. Again, I've seen teams play a rookie at QB over someone who may be better right now, but that was typically a rookie that the coach and GM currently running the team chose to be their franchise. But I don't recall a team benching a guy who they thought was better in favor of a project QB who should have been taken in the 2nd or 3rd round but happened to be reached for by the previous, now fired, coach.

 

We see it all the time at the trading deadline in baseball, but that's a different dynamic and, again, it happens late enough in the season when the "buyers" and "sellers" have been identified.

 

I would imagine, for every Denver fan who sides with you and BB, and wants to just scrap the season and see what they've got, there's others who feel that, until it is obvious that you're not going to contend, you need to act like you're trying to win.

 

None the less:

 

1) There are simply very few trades of consequence in the NFL during the season. So, moving all the guys you listed is only going to happen for a steep discount, if it happens at all. I guess a 6th-7th rounder is better than just letting them walk in FA. Then again, other teams know that they can just get those guys for free if they wait until the off-season. Do you expect much of a bidding war for Moreno's services in the FA market? Why would anyone trade anything for him?

 

2) Everything you're saying could be discovered in the final 6-8 games of the season if and when they're clearly out of the running. On the other hand, if Fox can manage to get the D playing better, perhaps you guys turn the corner and contend.

[wildcat2334]

I prefer to win each game, but I agree, we'd be better off losing.

 

I don't follow college football, but I understand that there are three potential stud QBs next year? Luck is one, obviously. But does anyone know about the toher two? I think one is Landry?

 

yup

 

Luck, Barkley, Jones.

 

buckle up it is going to be a nice battle for Luck

 

I like Seattle's chances myself. It doesn't hurt that Newton looks like the real deal either........

 

You Denver Tebow guys are funny, delusional but funny.

[flemingd]

I don't follow college football, but I understand that there are three potential stud QBs next year? Luck is one, obviously. But does anyone know about the toher two? I think one is Landry?

This is a deep class. There are 4-5 other guys that could end up being legit NFL QB's as well. Look at Tampa Bay - they got Freeman what, 21? Flacco was late also? Obviosly a lot to be said, but 12 months ago zero people were talking about Cam Newton even coming out early, let alone being the greatest QB of all time (oh, we're not there yet with him?).