The dark side of Walter Payton

[SNOWBOUND33]

the drugs they listed are kind of funny considering the guy is the greatest RB to play the game - and its a hard game.

 

Riddilin? Really?

 

And the suicide - who knows what repeated blows to a head might end up doing to a guy. I can see where depression could be a side-effect.

True. Look at his team mate. Duerson knew it was messing with him and was scared of himself.

[lennykravitz2004]

How is any of this "the dark side"? I thought all this stuff was just called "college"?

[Yukon Cornelius]

riddle me this.... why even bother to read it. i am not.

[delusions of grandeur]

Is it your contention that professional athletes have suicide rates significantly higher than other professions? I have not seen data that supports this - perhaps you can provide some. If you'd like, I could provide a bunch of evidence to the contrary.

 

In regard to guys adapting outside the lines - lots of these guys are undereducated. They either don't finish their college degree, or don't belong in college at all and are there just because of their athletic superiority. They've had ample opportunity to get educated - some of them at the best levels of higher education, but chose not to take advantage of it.

 

Then you give a bunch of young undereducated guys a ton of money and they get publicly lauded and lavished with attention, and have myriad special privleges for a few years, and then it is gone. If these guys had sense, they would have set aside large portions of the money they earned and would have still lived better than 99% of the population in this country. But unfortunately they didn't, and suddenly they find themselves without a pro career, with no college education, and having chosen not to learn any special skills that would serve them outside athletics.

 

Should it surprise anyone that a lot of these guys fall into financial failure? In fact, I'd argue that a lot of them should be considered fortunate for having the opportunity to live as they did for a few years given their other abilities and capabilities outside of sports, rather than making a case of how bad they have it because they once were a member of an extraordinarily select group of people but aren't anymore and instead are forced to reach their equilibrium.

 

They made a choice of trading a portion of their longterm health for excessive amounts of capital. Given the choice looking from the outside inward, how many of us also wouldn't make that same choice? But many of them also knowingly chose to squander large amounts of that capital and to not take advantage of the educational opportunties available to them, or to provide for their own futures. It's a real shame, but it is also difficult to feel profoundly sympathetic for them for many people like myself. I feel much more sympathy for the persons who have extraordinary capabilities or abilities but never were able to take the opportunity to develop them.

I love how you highlight the reasons why we should be sympathetic for their plight, but once again just use it to express your bitterness that these guys are overpaid.

 

Like you said, is it any surprise that guys who grew up in poverty with poor education are unable to take advantage of opportunities and manage their money? No, it shouldn't be... You throw a bunch of cash at someone who's never had money to manage, and this is what happens. Part of smarts is experience and education, which many are lacking in this area. The NFL and NFLPA should really be doing a better job of getting these guys hooked up with accountants who can help them with maintaining a sustainable cash-flow.

 

Riddilin? Really?

Morphine is perhaps the most addictive substance in the world, so what started out as a way to ease pain can easily spiral into an addiction. There are many documented cases of this... So no, once he was addicted, it probably was more about the constant craving to get high than self-medication by that point.

[Cameltosis]

Is it your contention that professional athletes have suicide rates significantly higher than other professions? I have not seen data that supports this - perhaps you can provide some. If you'd like, I could provide a bunch of evidence to the contrary.

 

In regard to guys adapting outside the lines - lots of these guys are undereducated. They either don't finish their college degree, or don't belong in college at all and are there just because of their athletic superiority. They've had ample opportunity to get educated - some of them at the best levels of higher education, but chose not to take advantage of it.

 

Then you give a bunch of young undereducated guys a ton of money and they get publicly lauded and lavished with attention, and have myriad special privleges for a few years, and then it is gone. If these guys had sense, they would have set aside large portions of the money they earned and would have still lived better than 99% of the population in this country. But unfortunately they didn't, and suddenly they find themselves without a pro career, with no college education, and having chosen not to learn any special skills that would serve them outside athletics.

 

Should it surprise anyone that a lot of these guys fall into financial failure? In fact, I'd argue that a lot of them should be considered fortunate for having the opportunity to live as they did for a few years given their other abilities and capabilities outside of sports, rather than making a case of how bad they have it because they once were a member of an extraordinarily select group of people but aren't anymore and instead are forced to reach their equilibrium.

 

They made a choice of trading a portion of their longterm health for excessive amounts of capital. Given the choice looking from the outside inward, how many of us also wouldn't make that same choice? But many of them also knowingly chose to squander large amounts of that capital and to not take advantage of the educational opportunties available to them, or to provide for their own futures. It's a real shame, but it is also difficult to feel profoundly sympathetic for them for many people like myself. I feel much more sympathy for the persons who have extraordinary capabilities or abilities but never were able to take the opportunity to develop them.

 

So, let me understand your point. Most of these guys are uneducated, bad at handling their money, and have nothing to fall back on. So my point of the reporting of accurate informatin in order to grow understanding and pave a smoother road for kids that will be doing the same thing in 3 to 10 years is wrong how?

 

As far as suicide rates go, show me where I said it was higher in athletes than other professions? What I did say, is that it is becoming a growing epidemic. Not sure how that can be argued. but I am sure you will. We still dont understand the long term affects of concussoins but it is becoming clear that there is a link between them and clinical depression. I also think its pretty clear that the concussion rates in athletes are higher than most other professions. It is also clear that clinical depression is the leading cause of suicide. I dont know, it just seems clear to me. But if you're too lazy to google, here you go.

 

link 1

 

Major League Baseball and Mental Health Issues, Suicides

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Some Major League Baseball players do battle with mental health issues. In the article, Athletes and Mental Illness, Major League Baseball Steps Up to the Plate, NAMI Advocate reiterates what has already been said about baseball, by Mike Stadler in The Psychology of Baseball, that it is, in fact, a mental game. The sport puts "considerable pressure" upon the players, to live up to expectations and for high performance. When a pitcher or hitter is in a slump, it can contribute to anxiety and depression.

 

Additionally, traveling on the road for 81 away games a year away from family, there is "too much time to reflect on or obsess about shortcomings." Isolation can occur when on the road and this can accentuate anxiousness or depression. Baseball, especially, is a sport where mental balance is essential to maintain for players, and where some players do struggle with mental health difficulties.

 

The site, Baseball Almanac documents an incomplete list of baseball players who have committed suicide, listing 78 former Major League Baseball Players by name who have taken their own lives since 1889. The 1960s had the highest number of suicides of any decade, with eight players taking their lives.

 

The decade from 2000 to 2010 recorded six players who committed suicide. The suicide rate for Major League Baseball Players from the during that time period was approximately 2.6 times that of that general male population in the United States. (The general rate of suicide for males in the United States during that last decade is approximately 17.7 per 100,000. The rate for MLB is approximately 46.3 per 100,000 - There are 30 MLB teams with 40 players each).

 

MLB Suicide rate

 

46.3 per 100,000

 

Suicide Rate Male Population in United States

 

17.7 per 100,000

 

link 2

 

A study of more than 2,500 retired NFL players found that those who had at least three concussions during their careers had triple the risk of clinical depression as those who had no concussions.

 

Those who recalled one or two concussions were 1 1/2 times more likely to be diagnosed with depression, said Kevin Guskiewicz, research director of the University of North Carolina's Center for the Study of Retired Athletes

 

link 3

 

 

Just consider all the frightening data coming in about the long-term effects of life after football. The suicide rate among former NFL players is six times higher than the national average

Edited September 29, 2011 by Cameltosis

[Rxcalibur]

Addiction and bouts of depression do not necessarily make someone a bad person. As you can see in this case, Payton was, by all accounts, at his core, a hard-woking, genuinely good man on and off the field. Sadly, he apparently battled some personal demons but despite his issues, he still did good things and still treated people with courtesy and respect.

 

As for addiction itself, when a person becomes addicted to something like painkillers, going without the medicine can cause that person to begin to experience symptoms of withdrawal (such as cravings, chills, pain, tremors, anxiety, depression) thus leading the person to continue to take the medicine just to feel normal. In addition, a person can build up a tolerance to painkillers over time leading that person to require more and more of the medication to experience pain relief and therefore greatly increasing the chance of becoming addicted. It's the proverbial "vicious cycle." Unfortunately, many people who are addicted to painkillers can function normally for the most part and most casual observers and even close friends and family may not be aware of the addiction. I hate hearing all this about Walter Payton so long after his passing, but hopefully it will at least spread awareness and maybe spare someone the fate that befell Oklahoma Sooner LB Austin Box over the summer.

 

R.I.P. Sweetness. We all remember the good - as it should be.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Rxcalibur

[Goopster24]

I don't have a problem with journalists attempting to provide a "fuller understanding" of historic figures. Happens on all levels, no matter what arena we are talking about; sports, politics, entertainment.

[Bronco Billy]

As far as suicide rates go, show me where I said it was higher in athletes than other professions? What I did say, is that it is becoming a growing epidemic. Not sure how that can be argued. but I am sure you will. We still dont understand the long term affects of concussoins but it is becoming clear that there is a link between them and clinical depression. I also think its pretty clear that the concussion rates in athletes are higher than most other professions. It is also clear that clinical depression is the leading cause of suicide. I dont know, it just seems clear to me. But if you're too lazy to google, here you go.

 

So suicide rates are not higher but they are higher (than normal, but not higher than some other professions which I looked up even though I'm too lazy to look it up), but are a growing epidemic? That's what you just said above? I'm also not sure epidemic means what you think it means.

 

Then you cite a MLB study and tie that to concussions of NFL players, which then leads to clinical depression? How exactly do you make that kind of leap? BTW, when comparing against national average, that's fine. But also make it a point to note some of the highest suicide rates by profession - which NFL football players are not a part of. Link 1 Link 2 Link 3 I've only linked 3 professional studies, but after all, I am lazy.

 

Also - if you are going to quote me, then don't intentionally misquote me when you are discussing, as you did above. I used the word undereducated, not uneducated. Big difference. All these guys go to college, yet a very small proportion of them seemingly carry a university-grade knowledge base. People who have a college education ought to be capable of making decisions that would not leave 80% of them flat broke and/or bankrupt 2 years after retiring from a profession that pays the poorest of them at a rate that is well into the top 1% of income earners in this country.

 

I would say that people compensated at that rate ought to be able to either figure out on their own that they need to save & invest their capital or hire credible people to do it for them. But that's just my opinion.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Bronco Billy

[Bronco Billy]

I love how you highlight the reasons why we should be sympathetic for their plight, but once again just use it to express your bitterness that these guys are overpaid.

 

Like you said, is it any surprise that guys who grew up in poverty with poor education are unable to take advantage of opportunities and manage their money? No, it shouldn't be... You throw a bunch of cash at someone who's never had money to manage, and this is what happens. Part of smarts is experience and education, which many are lacking in this area. The NFL and NFLPA should really be doing a better job of getting these guys hooked up with accountants who can help them with maintaining a sustainable cash-flow.

 

I'm bitter that they're paid so well (note, I do not contend that NFL players are overpaid - which is a term that you use)? Where did I state that?

 

I agree that given the risks that their compensation should be high, and have said so many times in the, but which you also have misrepresented in the past to create a strawman argument similar to the one you are making here.

 

I do believe that people who make that much money ought to be responsible enough to take sufficient care to make sure that it will last them for a while - maybe even their lifetimes with prudent conservative investing, and I also believe that they should be held responsible for their own actions if they piss their own money away and are broke in a relateively short time after finishing their playing days. By your statements, you apparently think they are incapable of controlling their own actions.

[SNOWBOUND33]

So suicide rates are not higher but they are higher (than normal, but not higher than some other professions which I looked up even though I'm too lazy to look it up), but are a growing epidemic? That's what you just said above? I'm also not sure epidemic means what you think it means.

 

Then you cite a MLB study and tie that to concussions of NFL players, which then leads to clinical depression? How exactly do you make that kind of leap? BTW, when comparing against national average, that's fine. But also make it a point to note some of the highest suicide rates by profession - which NFL football players are not a part of. Link 1 Link 2 Link 3 I've only linked 3 professional studies, but after all, I am lazy.

 

Also - if you are going to quote me, then don't intentionally misquote me when you are discussing, as you did above. I used the word undereducated, not uneducated. Big difference. All these guys go to college, yet a very small proportion of them seemingly carry a university-grade knowledge base. People who have a college education ought to be capable of making decisions that would not leave 80% of them flat broke and/or bankrupt 2 years after retiring from a profession that pays the poorest of them at a rate that is well into the top 1% of income earners in this country.

 

I would say that people compensated at that rate ought to be able to either figure out on their own that they need to save & invest their capital or hire credible people to do it for them. But that's just my opinion.

Talk about whining and misquoting......Karma is a bitch huh?

[Bronco Billy]

Talk about whining and misquoting......Karma is a bitch huh?

 

I didn't know your real name was Karma. Now go back to playing with the other 11 yr olds. The adults are talking.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Bronco Billy

[Cameltosis]

So suicide rates are not higher but they are higher (than normal, but not higher than some other professions which I looked up even though I'm too lazy to look it up), but are a growing epidemic? That's what you just said above? I'm also not sure epidemic means what you think it means.

 

Then you cite a MLB study and tie that to concussions of NFL players, which then leads to clinical depression? How exactly do you make that kind of leap? BTW, when comparing against national average, that's fine. But also make it a point to note some of the highest suicide rates by profession - which NFL football players are not a part of. Link 1 Link 2 Link 3 I've only linked 3 professional studies, but after all, I am lazy.

 

Also - if you are going to quote me, then don't intentionally misquote me when you are discussing, as you did above. I used the word undereducated, not uneducated. Big difference. All these guys go to college, yet a very small proportion of them seemingly carry a university-grade knowledge base. People who have a college education ought to be capable of making decisions that would not leave 80% of them flat broke and/or bankrupt 2 years after retiring from a profession that pays the poorest of them at a rate that is well into the top 1% of income earners in this country.

 

I would say that people compensated at that rate ought to be able to either figure out on their own that they need to save & invest their capital or hire credible people to do it for them. But that's just my opinion.

 

It seems I misquoted you, although it certainly was not intentional. My bad. While we are on the topic, show me where I stated pro athletes have the highest suicide rate amongst other professions? This seems to be where you have taken this entire argument and I never stated anything of the like.

 

And I know what epidemic means.

 

: affecting or tending to affect a disproportionately large number of individuals within a population, community, or region at the same time.

 

Kind of like the links I provided showing that MLB and the NFL have much higher suicide rates than the national average.

 

Someone piss in your Wheaties today?

[Bronco Billy]

It seems I misquoted you, although it certainly was not intentional. My bad.

 

Appreciated. Thanks

 

While we are on the topic, show me where I stated pro athletes have the highest suicide rate amongst other professions? This seems to be where you have taken this entire argument and I never stated anything of the like.

 

exposing this growing epidemic cannot be a bad thing. Look at how many athletes have killed themselves in the past decade. Hell, 5 years.

 

 

I thought your intent was clear. If you don't think that number is high, then why make the statements? Perhaps I was the one misinterpretting in this case.

 

 

Kind of like the links I provided showing that MLB and the NFL have much higher suicide rates than the national average.

 

I'll concede that, though it is a bit misleading and I still don't know where you are headed in this discussion with MLB players.

 

Someone piss in your Wheaties today?

 

 

Nope, just having a good passionate discussion. You seem up to it.

[SNOWBOUND33]

It seems I misquoted you, although it certainly was not intentional. My bad. While we are on the topic, show me where I stated pro athletes have the highest suicide rate amongst other professions? This seems to be where you have taken this entire argument and I never stated anything of the like.

 

And I know what epidemic means.

 

 

 

Kind of like the links I provided showing that MLB and the NFL have much higher suicide rates than the national average.

 

Someone piss in your Wheaties today?

You wouldn't know about adult things Bobby.

When you misquote you apologize. It's no wonder you are always in a pissing match with somebody around here.

[SNOWBOUND33]

It seems I misquoted you, although it certainly was not intentional. My bad. While we are on the topic, show me where I stated pro athletes have the highest suicide rate amongst other professions? This seems to be where you have taken this entire argument and I never stated anything of the like.

 

And I know what epidemic means.

 

 

 

Kind of like the links I provided showing that MLB and the NFL have much higher suicide rates than the national average.

 

Someone piss in your Wheaties today?

This is what Billy does. What a crappy life. And yes my name is Karma.

[Cameltosis]

I thought your intent was clear. If you don't think that number is high, then why make the statements? Perhaps I was the one misinterpretting in this case.

 

I do think its high. I just never said it was higher than any other profession, like you have repeatedly said I did.

 

I'll concede that, though it is a bit misleading and I still don't know where you are headed in this discussion with MLB players.

 

You said show me some links so I did. Its a surprising stat about pro athletes and suicide.

 

But in the end I am going to have to concede victory here. Obviously my stats from medical studies cannot hold a candle to your link from Dr. Debs blog.

[Bronco Billy]

Obviously my stats from medical studies cannot hold a candle to your link from Dr. Debs blog.

 

Lay the groundwork, and then slam the door shut!

 

You don't mess with the ace in the hole that is Dr Deb.

 

FWIW - you scored some very good points

Edited September 29, 2011 by Bronco Billy

[SNOWBOUND33]

I do think its high. I just never said it was higher than any other profession, like you have repeatedly said I did.

 

 

 

You said show me some links so I did. Its a surprising stat about pro athletes and suicide.

 

But in the end I am going to have to concede victory here. Obviously my stats from medical studies cannot hold a candle to your link from Dr. Debs blog.

[SNOWBOUND33]

Lay the groundwork, and then slam the door shut!

 

You don't mess with the ace in the hole that is Dr Deb.

did I misread that? Did you correctly call yourself an acehole?

[delusions of grandeur]

I'm bitter that they're paid so well (note, I do not contend that NFL players are overpaid - which is a term that you use)? Where did I state that?

 

I agree that given the risks that their compensation should be high, and have said so many times in the, but which you also have misrepresented in the past to create a strawman argument similar to the one you are making here.

 

I do believe that people who make that much money ought to be responsible enough to take sufficient care to make sure that it will last them for a while - maybe even their lifetimes with prudent conservative investing, and I also believe that they should be held responsible for their own actions if they piss their own money away and are broke in a relateively short time after finishing their playing days. By your statements, you apparently think they are incapable of controlling their own actions.

Why do I even bother? Do you really want me to look up all your pro-owner arguments from the lockout? If there's one thing you've been consistent about, it's that you have a clear disdain for players getting paid what they do.

 

And if it's such a matter of personal responsibility, then why aren't these just isolated incidents? I'm not trying to argue against personal responsibility, but you seem to take every chance you can get to "not feel to sorry" for those who get themselves into jams, and you sure as hell don't seem to be arguing in favor of helping them get their life in order. Nobody's perfect, so rather than assuming that this is a just a matter of personal flaws, maybe realize that environment and situation absolutely have affect on personal decisions and behavior too... To believe otherwise is to neglect everything we know about human psychology, sociology, etc.

 

But yes, screw all those guys because they went from poverty and riches and don't know how to handle it. They should know better

Edited September 29, 2011 by delusions of granduer

[SNOWBOUND33]

Why do I even bother? Do you really want me to look up all your pro-owner arguments from the lockout? If there's one thing you've been consistent about, it's that you have a clear disdain for players getting paid what they do.

 

And if it's such a matter of personal responsibility, then why aren't these just isolated incidents? I'm not trying to argue against personal responsibility, but you seem to take every chance you can get to "not feel to sorry" for those who get themselves into jams, and you sure as hell don't seem to be arguing in favor of helping them get their life in order. Nobody's perfect, so rather than assuming that this is a just a matter of personal flaws, maybe realize that environment and situation absolutely have affect on personal decisions and behavior too... To believe otherwise is to neglect everything we know about human psychology, sociology, etc.

 

But yes, screw all those guys because they went from poverty and riches and don't know how to handle it. They should know better

Bang!

[Cameltosis]

FWIW - you scored some very good points

 

[Cameltosis]

 

Stop stalking. Although off base here, he was right about the Packers/Bears game thread. Which I assume is where the feuding started.

[SNOWBOUND33]

Stop stalking. Although off base here, he was right about the Packers/Bears game thread. Which I assume is where the feuding started.

dude, he started the stalking for no reason. I have been here for many years. I was backing you up a little but since you are a Browns fan-Move you ass out of Lake Forest. Or apologize.

Edited September 29, 2011 by SNOWBOUND33

[gilthorp]

Back on topic - many, many years ago I had brought up the fact that he was an adulterer. I knew this from knowledge gained from my wife when she was a Restaurant/Bar Manager at the Schaumburg Marriott. One poster in particular got very upset with the notion.

 

This book takes nothing away from what he accomplished and that he was one of the most complete football players to ever play the game. He worked harder than most to get that way. He took his profession seriously and was a punisher.

 

You only wish that today's RB's could be as durable as he was.

 

This type of book is incomplete. If Connie Payton was not interviewed and a part of the book, the personal life is only half told, and is nothing but a money grab.