detlef Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I'm not currently a commish in any of the leagues I'm in, or I'd log into the scoring options and see for myself. Does anyone know if any site (like MFL would be the only one), who scores this? I've been contemplating trying to find a "perfect" scoring system for a league I'll be starting next year. I appreciate that PPR shifts the focus away from bellcow backs a bit and makes WRs and TEs more valuable, but I'm still not convinced it's the be-all, end-all. Mostly because I've never come to grips with knowing that a reception that goes for zero yards is as good, FF wise, as a 10 yard run. Makes no sense to me. What I thought a better way to tilt the scales, position-wise, was to simply award more points for yardage gained by WRs (both rushing and receiving) and perhaps even more so for TEs. As for the argument that PPR makes possession WRs more valuable than a guy who might catch 2 passes for long bombs each game, I thought a better way to reward that sort of player was to give points for 1st downs. I mean, 1st downs are pretty damned important, and the guy who has a nose for the sticks is an asset to his FB team and, thus, should be an asset to a FF team. Same goes for RBs. The first down love would likely be the same for all positions. There are other fixes I have in mind, like making team D scoring more dependent on points allowed and less so on sacks and TOs. After all, that's the purpose of the D. To stop the other team. Most leagues give 10 pts for a shut out and maybe 5 or so for 10 pts or less. It should be like 25 for a shutout and at least 10 pts for 10 pts or less. In both cases, the D has either assured, or gone a long way to assuring that the real FB team will win that game. Alternately, you could keep D scoring the same and simply subtract the points allowed from the total. Things like that. But the only rule I'm really curious if I can program a site to handle is 1st downs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 our local league run on mfl awards xtra points for receiving 1st downs:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 (edited) Yes, on MFL you have the option for first downs, and/or passing, rushing, recieving first downs (I assume you just want to use the last 3, if you want it to only apply if that player passed, rushed or recieved the first down, not if the team did). A cool one that we're looking to implement since we removed kick return yardage for Team D/ST and gave it to the individual (it was making too many bad defenses viable with return opportunities after scores on them), we're looking to add a defensive category of "three-and-outs". I didn't see this option on the MFL scoring categories, but a buddy of mine has it in place in their yahoo league, so I'm sure you could talk to MFL and get them to add it too (what I will do if the vote passes). Edited December 1, 2011 by delusions of granduer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 also, Any Given Sunday defense scoring--"BoTH" league is not for the faint of heart...our local has a variation of it but not so brutal...in Any Given Sunday, you would be happy if your defense scored 0 or maybe -1 or -2 lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Yes, on MFL you have the option for first downs, and/or passing, rushing, recieving first downs (I assume you just want to use the last 3, if you want it to only apply if that player passed, rushed or recieved the first down, not if the team did). A cool one that we're looking to implement since we removed kick return yardage for Team D/ST and gave it to the individual (it was making too many bad defenses viable with return opportunities after scores on them), we're looking to add a defensive category of "three-and-outs". I didn't see this option on the MFL scoring categories, but a buddy of mine has it in place in their yahoo league, so I'm sure you could talk to MFL and get them to add it too (what I will do if the vote passes). - you could still keep the punt return yardage gained...or quantity of punts returned. - yards against. - i am going to lobby my leagues next year to have tackles for losses count as a sack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Dick Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Talk to muck. He had one we used that worked out pretty even. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 Talk to muck. He had one we used that worked out pretty even. Evening it out is only part of the goal. Mostly, I'm looking to better represent a players value on the field with his value in FF. Obviously there are limits. WRs and TEs who are great blockers, RBs who pick up the blitz well, that sort of thing is never going to fit in to FF. But I'd like to get as close as I can. Which also means trying to fix the QB deal. It annoys me when a QB puts up pretty good FF points despite playing a large role in his teams ass getting thoroughly kicked. I only remember this one because I started him that week, but Tim Tebow, for instance was the #8 FF QB in my league the week they lost 45-10 and he threw a pick six and also had a fumble returned for a TD. He had about as bad a game as you can have, and yet he was a worthy start in leagues of basically any size. Somehow, scoring needs to be tweaked to account for that. The first thought is to examine why QBs get the same points per rushing yardage as RBs or WRs do. It's 3rd and 8. Your QB drops back, does it matter if he throws it 10 yards or runs it? Either way it's a first. The whole rationale for passing yardage being worth less than receiving is to discount the QBs yards because, different guys are catching it, but he's always the one throwing it. If you take that one step further and say that all his yardage should be discounted because he's the only player who touches the ball on virtually every play... The second, of course, is to look at penalizing TOs more. They're not as bad as TDs are good, but they're closer than what most leagues score them at (it's -2 in all the leagues I'm in and either 4 or 6 for a TD). I'd say it should be -3 if TDs are 4 and -4.5 if TDs are 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMD Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 One of the problems you have when you use the more esoteric categories for scoring is that there is no way anyone can really check the validity of the score since you are going outside the traditional box score. You would just have no idea what your total team did until the League Management site spit out the number for you and a lot of what I enjoy about FF is seeing my players get me points on highlights or when I am watching with touchdowns or long runs or whatever. How would you even research to see how players are at gaining first downs overall for instance. I appreciate the intent and desire. It is why I wrote and created The Perfect Scoring System which is an option on MFL. But it has shortcomings itself since positional value tends to chance over time (for instance tight end scoring bounces around and RBs no longer score as they once did). Would be fascinated to see what you ended up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawofmurphy Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 As I posted in a different thread, the "fix" you're looking for here is SUBTRACTING points for attempts. This is an effective way to balance positions AND add in efficiency as a metric. You correctly point out that a zero-yard catch doesn't equal a ten yard run. Similarly, two three-yard runs aren't as good as one six-yard run. I hope scoring systems in the future are able to handle more advanced metrics like sacks taken (negative for QBs), first downs achieved (positive for RB/WR), and other random things. But subtracting for attempts is the first thing I'd install in a "perfect" scoring system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 I know you said MFL is what you're looking at, but CBS also has this capability. Individual category for passing, rushing and receiving (so can use one or all, different points for each, etc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I know you said MFL is what you're looking at, but CBS also has this capability. Individual category for passing, rushing and receiving (so can use one or all, different points for each, etc). Yeah, but CBS is generally 2-3 times the cost of other league management sites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby's Hubby Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 it took me maybe 5-7 seconds to "program" MFL to award 1 point for a 1st down catch versus a half point for a catch that is not a first down. keep it simple. we got tired of screen passes that go for losses getting rewarded as much as a 3 yard catch that was a first down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Yeah, but CBS is generally 2-3 times the cost of other league management sites. I understand that, and have read the various threads in the past saying how much cheaper/better MFL is. But also know that some people use CBS and are happy with it even though it costs more. So I wanted to point out that it also has some of these more "advanced scoring options" just like MFL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geeteebee Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 MFL also allows you the option to set up PPR only for receptions over x number of yards. In one of my leagues we only award a PPR point if a reception goes for 5 or more yards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 it took me maybe 5-7 seconds to "program" MFL to award 1 point for a 1st down catch versus a half point for a catch that is not a first down. keep it simple. we got tired of screen passes that go for losses getting rewarded as much as a 3 yard catch that was a first down. It doesn't need to be that simple. Not now that computers are involved. Keeping it simple is what has caused FF to not reflect true football productions as well as it could. Hell, when it was really simple, it was all about TDs with token bonuses at 100 yards and such. Then Leroy Hoard was more valuable than an actual starting RB. When it was more complex than that but still simpler than it is now. You got 1 pt for every 10 yards but getting 19 yards was no better than getting 10. And so on. A complex scoring system might, actually, make things more simple (assuming a complex metric helps mimic a players actual value to his NFL team). Because, from the user standpoint, it will become more of "Is this guy good?" Not, "is this guy either good or plays on a team so crappy that, even though he's not that good, they're behind by 20 at the half all the time so he's going to be chucking it around against soft coverage for half the game" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedingGreen Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 it took me maybe 5-7 seconds to "program" MFL to award 1 point for a 1st down catch versus a half point for a catch that is not a first down. keep it simple. we got tired of screen passes that go for losses getting rewarded as much as a 3 yard catch that was a first down. Impossible to do, but wouldn't it be great if you could award 1.5 points for a 1st down catch...if it happens on 3rd or 4th down? Clutch pts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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